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      Member Indecent Exposure's Avatar
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      Does it really matter?

      Do any of these things that we discuss in Extended Discussion matter? Do injustices matter? At the end of the day we are but a dot on the time line of the universe. There is no good, there is no bad, there is only survival right? So really the system that causes international poverty is not really a problem, because it is simply those at the top winning the game of survival, is it not?
      How is global warming wrong, or unnatural? Since we are part of nature, anything that we cause is natural right? The earth is a tiny little dot in an insignificant dot of a galaxy, and humans are but a commercial. Surely there is no right, no wrong, no evil, no unnatural acts. The only thing that is true is that we are.
      "...You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world..." - Terence McKenna

      Previously known as imran_p

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      points to signature

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      Member Indecent Exposure's Avatar
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      Lol. I suppose at the moment, I left the thread a bit short, since it has no purpose, which I suppose is rather apt. But what I'm trying to get at is, how, knowing all of that, do we continue to get so incensed, so annoyed and so passionate about injustice? When as thinking, aware people we also understand that nothing matters?
      "...You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world..." - Terence McKenna

      Previously known as imran_p

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      As I see it, realizing this is accompanied by a certain equanimity.
      A different aspect is that the present moment is all that we have.
      Just that things won't matter in the end, does not mean that nothing
      matters at all and to see the subjective beauty of existence means
      to be passionate about the things that are important to us, because
      this is what our subjectivity is for.

      I believe we should be human and live with passion, because that is
      what we are designed to do and even though the knowledge that
      it doesn't make a difference is valid, it should make us more stable or
      content at the inner core, it should help us not to be scared during
      the ride called 'life', but it should not lead us to miss the show.

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      Member Indecent Exposure's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by dajo View Post
      As I see it, realizing this is accompanied by a certain equanimity.
      A different aspect is that the present moment is all that we have.
      Just that things won't matter in the end, does not mean that nothing
      matters at all and to see the subjective beauty of existence means
      to be passionate about the things that are important to us, because
      this is what our subjectivity is for.


      I believe we should be human and live with passion, because that is
      what we are designed to do and even though the knowledge that
      it doesn't make a difference is valid, it should make us more stable or
      content at the inner core, it should help us not to be scared during
      the ride called 'life', but it should not lead us to miss the show.
      This is not to say I disagree with you, but its interesting to exercise the mind.


      I understand the argument, but maybe it could be interpreted differently. It is possible that the part of your point that I have highlighted could be used to further reinforce the initial post; that injustice, poverty, slavery, war, these things don't matter. This is because, like you say, all we have is the present, the now. So we can use this to further suggest that we should use our time worrying about what is going on around us now, immerse ourselves in it, rather than worrying about these larger, yet seemingly incredibly less important issues. I'm find it hard to articulate my idea; almost that the notion that we should fully immerse ourselves in life and live in the direct experience can be an argument to support the position that we should not concern ourselves with these other problems, and should instead watch the sunset and contemplate its beauty?
      I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across, albeit very poorly.
      "...You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world..." - Terence McKenna

      Previously known as imran_p

    6. #6
      Xei
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      I find it inherently obvious that treating others well is a good thing.

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      Quote Originally Posted by imran_p View Post
      This is not to say I disagree with you, but its interesting to exercise the mind.

      I understand the argument, but maybe it could be interpreted differently. It is possible that the part of your point that I have highlighted could be used to further reinforce the initial post; that injustice, poverty, slavery, war, these things don't matter. This is because, like you say, all we have is the present, the now. So we can use this to further suggest that we should use our time worrying about what is going on around us now, immerse ourselves in it, rather than worrying about these larger, yet seemingly incredibly less important issues. I'm find it hard to articulate my idea; almost that the notion that we should fully immerse ourselves in life and live in the direct experience can be an argument to support the position that we should not concern ourselves with these other problems, and should instead watch the sunset and contemplate its beauty?
      I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across, albeit very poorly.
      Of course it could be interpreted differently. Everything can.
      And I am also just spewing thoughts. I may change my mind in the future.

      Empathy is another human trait with infinite value. The ability to put
      oneself in another's shoes. To me, what approval of life means is
      approval of all life. I just come to the conclusion that other people's
      well being is just as important as mine.

      Ever heard that giving is more rewarding than receiving? In a way you could argue
      that the very act of helping another being is part of the beauty of everything as well.

      But even just living life positively and therefore influencing the people
      and your environment around you is already contributing, so even if you
      don't concern yourself with any of the ills of the world, it adds to the whole.

      Although I do think that it is absoluetly not worth it to be miserable, because
      of being too compassionate about all the larger issues. This I think is very
      important, adding ones own negativity to the whole is just not helping.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      I find it inherently obvious that treating others well is a good thing.
      Y'know.. it's a philosophical discussion. Sometimes you argue just to be thinking about it.
      Last edited by dajo; 03-05-2010 at 09:24 PM.

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      Yeah, it matters.
      Alot has been written on this. Go read anything about "the absurd"
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    9. #9
      Xei
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      Y'know.. it's a philosophical discussion. Sometimes you argue just to be thinking about it.
      I'm pretty sure it's impossible to give an a priori argument for morality.

      As in mathematics then, we must simply choose those axioms which are to us the most useful and self-evident.

      A good axiom would be the equality of people's rights. It follows that you have no right to do to others what you would not have them do to you.

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      Naturally, they don't matter in bigger scale. The cosmos doesn't give a shit about what you are thinking. But it gives some meaning to your life and helps you stay interested in life, so I would like to think it is a good thing.

      Live your life and make it interesting to you. If it is not, you could slit your throat anytime you like.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Nothing matters? I mean, what are you waiting for? A reward at the end of life to give it meaning? Its like the argument that whiny emos make that unless their life is remembered there was no point in living.

      But all we have is right now. The future is always the future, and the past is always memories we can't even remember right. If we demand some sort of end result, well then it's always fruitless because were just a blip of time. But that blip of time is happening now, and now is all there is, and now is all there ever will be. Be happy that you are the living manifestation of the stuff of the universe.

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      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      Nothing matters? I mean, what are you waiting for?
      Simply put : death. What you expected? O.o

      A reward at the end of life to give it meaning? Its like the argument that whiny emos make that unless their life is remembered there was no point in living.
      Well you could think it like that if you want to be remembered. I however don't value such things. There is no need for records or statues. I just live as I see fit.

      But all we have is right now. The future is always the future, and the past is always memories we can't even remember right. If we demand some sort of end result, well then it's always fruitless because were just a blip of time. But that blip of time is happening now, and now is all there is, and now is all there ever will be. Be happy that you are the living manifestation of the stuff of the universe.
      This is where I agree. People worry too much about future or past. Enjoy the ride, go with the flow. Lady luck will throw the dice. An healthy stoicism is good way to go.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      A Natural The Invisible Man's Avatar
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      Nihilism, I like.

      Go read The Stranger, you might like it.


      Can you see me now?

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      I am very fond of Camus, among with many other terrific writers.

      So many great books, so little time.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      Member SkA_DaRk_Che's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by imran_p View Post
      Do any of these things that we discuss in Extended Discussion matter? Do injustices matter? At the end of the day we are but a dot on the time line of the universe. There is no good, there is no bad, there is only survival right? So really the system that causes international poverty is not really a problem, because it is simply those at the top winning the game of survival, is it not?
      Well, I am in agreement with this. I used to be very idealistic in my notions, especially about justice and injustice, and the state of human suffering. In particular for example, I focused on European and Western Colonialism. During this time, I was very critical of the West and everything that it did. However, Upon a closer examination of world history I found that what I saw in the last 500 years of human history had been around since the dawn of man.

      History was just one big example of Humans conquering other humans, tribes,nations and eventually empires annexing, absorbing and colonizing other lands. Even in pre-history Cro-Magnum man contributed to the demise of Neanderthals.

      This is when I realized that the things I saw as negative were just natural manifestations of human behavior, not behaviors that were subjective to one particular group of people or philosophy. Moreover, this behavior of conquering and domination of one organism to another contributed to the evolution of humans and life in general. You will recall the term "survival of the fittest".

      After awhile, I began to realize that good and bad were arbitrary terms that really didn't mean anything. I mean it is all subjective.

      Now, I don't believe there is any real reason to change the world at all, after all any progress that is made will eventually be undone, every empire,nation, peace treaty, armistice will give way eventually.

      The only thing I can be sure of is that I am going to die, and that I should just live my life contently. There is no reason to change the world or care about suffering because war, suffering and conquest are all constants. I'm speaking about a global not local scale here. Furthermore, they are a (necessary) part of nature. I don't see any reason anymore to fret over things that cannot be changed. There is a saying, the exact words escape me but it is something like "Do not worry about death, worry about things that you can change". This also applies to everything else I suppose.
      Last edited by SkA_DaRk_Che; 03-06-2010 at 12:13 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      Nothing matters? I mean, what are you waiting for? A reward at the end of life to give it meaning? Its like the argument that whiny emos make that unless their life is remembered there was no point in living.

      But all we have is right now. The future is always the future, and the past is always memories we can't even remember right. If we demand some sort of end result, well then it's always fruitless because were just a blip of time. But that blip of time is happening now, and now is all there is, and now is all there ever will be. Be happy that you are the living manifestation of the stuff of the universe.
      That does make sense somehow. That belief will force them do stuff that makes people acknowledge them and their deeds. And because people need to be acknowledged by other people to be happy, it will make them strive for happiness. In the end it will make them happier people. It's not just about "being remembered after death", I think.

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      Dreamah in ReHaB AirRick101's Avatar
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      It matters if you are interested in it.
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

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      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koalaman View Post
      That does make sense somehow. That belief will force them do stuff that makes people acknowledge them and their deeds. And because people need to be acknowledged by other people to be happy, it will make them strive for happiness. In the end it will make them happier people. It's not just about "being remembered after death", I think.
      Exactly, so I'm not sure how it relates to what I said. I said being remembered, not being validated, two different things

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      To give you a clishe: If it matters to you, it matters.
      April Ryan is my friend,
      Every sorrow she can mend.
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      Does it simply overwhelm.

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      Yes it matters.

      "Why," you ask? Simple. Because, if nobody gave a damn about any of these questions of morality and injustice, that we talk about (seemingly, pointlessly), then the world would be a much worse place for all of mankind - not just ourselves.

      If everybody truly "didn't give a fuck", because it "doesn't matter, on a cosmic scale", then it would be a veritable Hell on Earth.

      It is BECAUSE people care about these kinds of things enough to talk about them (even though talking about it 'doesn't matter') that there is a sense of balance.

      One person's forum activity doesn't change the world. Ideologies change the world, and conversation is the conduit for ideology.
      http://i.imgur.com/Ke7qCcF.jpg
      (Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)

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      To the original poster:

      If human exploitation doesn't matter to you, try being on the exploited part.

      Yes, global warming is natural in the sense that it was done by natural beings - but in that light, everything is natural. The global warming issue is not about it being natural or not, but about the perpetuation of our species. Even if it was not provoked by humans (I'm not going to get into that discussion), we should try to stop it nonetheless.
      Last edited by Kromoh; 03-16-2010 at 02:58 AM.
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      Really it's subjective. It may mean the world to one person, and nothing to another.

      Looking in the long run, and I mean loooooong run.... of course it doesn't matter. Looking on the scale of stars dying, galaxies collapsing... we're just an infinitly small speck on what is 'reality'. Everything that's happened, and will happen in the 'comprehendable' future doesn't matter on the scale of the universe. Everything 'dies', everything comes and goes.

      So, no... not in the respect... but to US it can.

    24. #24
      Dreamah in ReHaB AirRick101's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Oneironaut View Post
      Yes it matters.

      "Why," you ask? Simple. Because, if nobody gave a damn about any of these questions of morality and injustice, that we talk about (seemingly, pointlessly), then the world would be a much worse place for all of mankind - not just ourselves.

      If everybody truly "didn't give a fuck", because it "doesn't matter, on a cosmic scale", then it would be a veritable Hell on Earth.

      It is BECAUSE people care about these kinds of things enough to talk about them (even though talking about it 'doesn't matter') that there is a sense of balance.

      One person's forum activity doesn't change the world. Ideologies change the world, and conversation is the conduit for ideology.
      might I add that one's capacity for persuasion, not merely conversation alone, is a pretty big factor in the translation from an ideology to implementation in reality...
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

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      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      'Live happily with the woman you love through all the meaningless days of life that God has given you under the sun.' 'When I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless...'~Solomon
      (Solomon getting at how pointless Earthly pursuits are.

      Well, yeah. Obviously, everything passes away. If people live long enough, statistically speaking, Adolf Hitler will be forgotten. Everything we do is forgotten and crumbles and dies. That's a given.

      But just because the past is gone forever and the future isn't happening doesn't mean they don't matter at all. Because right now is happening right now, right now matters right now. So yesterday matters in relation to how we can use it's lessons today. Tommorow should be prepared for because it will become the present. Things matter relative to the present.

      I do think that 'concepts' can last, though. If I put love out into the world, that can inspire someone else to put more love and more and more and it can continue until the human race ceases to exist. Same with hate. Maybe that is a little naieve of me. But meh.

      Oh, and morality is neccesssary for society to function. So there's that. It serves a practical purpose.

      When the human race is gone though, yeah, it was all just one big crapshoot save for our relationship with God.
      Paul is Dead




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