• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
    Results 51 to 75 of 136
    Like Tree14Likes

    Thread: Consensus Reality

    1. #51
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Dreamtime, Bardos
      Posts
      2,288
      Likes
      808
      DJ Entries
      5
      Is this like Schrödinger's Cat?

    2. #52
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it,
      does it make a sound?
      Yes, but not a perception of sound.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      The universe "carrys on" regardless of what dies and what lives, and you cannot describe how it does this without humans, because essentially we are part of the universe in either case. The universe is not a separate thing and has no capacity to care for you; that is a just projection.
      Like I said, humans are necessary for analysis of time, but not for time.

      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Time has quite limited meaning outside the context of observation. Everything that has happened to you has definitely happened, but everything that has not happened has happened as well, just beyond your purview. It falls within your capacity to literally choose your universe, and various particulars of it, but also to engrave certain eventualities more surely upon your neighbors, who have whatever connection to you, be it a third cousin or an internet forum.

      There are real, physical consequences to the meeting of observers, and the carving out of a shared reality they establish between them.
      That's pretty out there. Can you prove it?

      How old is the universe? How old is Earth?

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Is this like Schrödinger's Cat?
      Yes, that's what it is. I don't see it as anything more than interesting science fiction.

      I think I should post this again.



      Galaxies in a relatively narrow frame. We came from that kind of stuff. It was around long, long, long before we were.
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 04-07-2010 at 05:31 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    3. #53
      Member really's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,676
      Likes
      54
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Like I said, humans are necessary for analysis of time, but not for time.
      What does that mean? Time only exists in perception, much like space.

    4. #54
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      What does that mean? Time only exists in perception, much like space.
      Where do you get that?

      How old is the universe?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    5. #55
      widdershins modality Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1003
      DJ Entries
      19
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post



      Galaxies in a relatively narrow frame. We came from that kind of stuff. It was around long, long, long before we were.
      In what sense does it negate us? We exist in a universe in which consciousness DOES exist. How is any universe without consciousness a real one from the frame of reference we inhabit and cannot escape?
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    6. #56
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      In what sense does it negate us? We exist in a universe in which consciousness DOES exist. How is any universe without consciousness a real one from the frame of reference we inhabit and cannot escape?
      We can imagine not existing. Even if we couldn't, it used to be the case that we did not exist. The universe does just fine without our opinions.

      How old is the universe?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    7. #57
      Member really's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,676
      Likes
      54
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Where do you get that?

      How old is the universe?
      You can arbitrarily say how old or new things are, how long things last, etc. This is a limited view. It's a projection of the perception of time.

      Are you saying that we are not part of the universe?

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      We can imagine not existing. Even if we couldn't, it used to be the case that we did not exist. The universe does just fine without our opinions.
      The universe also does fine with our opinions. What's your point?

    8. #58
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Dreamtime, Bardos
      Posts
      2,288
      Likes
      808
      DJ Entries
      5
      Aaah!!! A universe without consciousness is not a universe at all! Imagine if a whole universe existed and died without ever once having life anywhere at all in it. And all the matter and energy got crunched back into before the big bang and there was no trace of it and no perception ever of it. Would it have existed? Or would it have been only a potential dream undreamed?

    9. #59
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      You can arbitrarily say how old or new things are, how long things last, etc. This is a limited view. It's a projection of the perception of time.

      Are you saying that we are not part of the universe?
      Am I saying we are not part of the universe? Uh, no. Why?

      How old is the universe? Answer it this time, please.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      The universe also does fine with our opinions. What's your point?
      That we are miniscule, insignificant, and unnecessary.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Aaah!!! A universe without consciousness is not a universe at all! Imagine if a whole universe existed and died without ever once having life anywhere at all in it. And all the matter and energy got crunched back into before the big bang and there was no trace of it and no perception ever of it. Would it have existed? Or would it have been only a potential dream undreamed?
      Isn't your premise that it existed?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    10. #60
      widdershins modality Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1003
      DJ Entries
      19
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      We can imagine not existing. Even if we couldn't, it used to be the case that we did not exist. The universe does just fine without our opinions.

      How old is the universe?
      The past is less imaginary than the future? From any perspective of existing, causes will be manifold--infinite, under any serious consideration--while effects will seem constrained. This effect is only from facing out into the event horizon from where you are now, a condition that exists for every being, but only every being, in an infinite universe.

      There is a perspective from which nothing is changing and nothing can change, but to even call it "a perspective" is personification. It is our perspective, of course, to the degree that we hold it, and to that degree may ease our passage as we move through this world.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    11. #61
      Member really's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,676
      Likes
      54
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Am I saying we are not part of the universe? Uh, no. Why?

      How old is the universe? Answer it this time, please.
      If you think we are part of the universe, then saying that the universe carrys on without us implies that we were separate from it. That is no different than saying planets are minuscule. "Look at how many planets there are! When that planet dies, the rest will carry on without it." It's only a limited perspective of the universe. Life and death are part of the universe. It's all the same. That doesn't negate the importance of meaning in the bigger picture.

      I don't know how old the universe is. About 14 billion years or something. My point is that age doesn't matter; time is an illusion.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      That we are miniscule, insignificant, and unnecessary.
      Well! That must be your opinion!

    12. #62
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Taosaur, how old is the universe? You are playing dodgeball.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      If you think we are part of the universe, then saying that the universe carrys on without us implies that we were separate from it. That is no different than saying planets are minuscule. "Look at how many planets there are! When that planet dies, the rest will carry on without it." It's only a limited perspective of the universe. Life and death are part of the universe. It's all the same. That doesn't negate the importance of meaning in the bigger picture.
      No, I'm not saying we are separate from the universe. I am saying we could be nonexistent and it wouldn't make a shit.

      How do you reconcile the next two quotes?

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      If I don't know how old the universe is. About 14 billion years or something.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      time is an illusion.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    13. #63
      Member really's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,676
      Likes
      54
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      No, I'm not saying we are separate from the universe. I am saying we could be nonexistent and it wouldn't make a shit.
      I know. I am saying so what, basically. It's just a perspective.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Ergo 14 Billion years is a limited concept that, in the bigger picture, is an illusion. Sure it's pragmatic or useful (or whatever) in science. But this is not about science.

    14. #64
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      I know. I am saying so what, basically. It's just a perspective.
      It's also a fact.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Ergo 14 Billion years is a limited concept that, in the bigger picture, is an illusion. Sure it's pragmatic or useful (or whatever) in science. But this is not about science.
      Isn't the truth of it what makes it so useful in science? Could they just as well go with the idea that the universe is 20 years old?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    15. #65
      Member really's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,676
      Likes
      54
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      It's also a fact.
      "and it wouldn't make a shit." and "That we are miniscule, insignificant, and unnecessary. " are your conclusions, which are not facts. They are perspectives

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Isn't the truth of it what makes it so useful in science? Could they just as well go with the idea that the universe is 20 years old?
      You tell me. Why is it of value in this discussion?

    16. #66
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      "and it wouldn't make a shit." and "That we are miniscule, insignificant, and unnecessary. " are your conclusions, which are not facts. They are perspectives
      Then tell me about the effects the extinction of humanity would have on the galaxies in that picture I posted.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      You tell me. Why is it of value in this discussion?
      I am illustrating that the universe is much older than we are, which means that we are not the basis of the universe.

      What is you answer to the question?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    17. #67
      widdershins modality Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1003
      DJ Entries
      19
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I am illustrating that the universe is much older than we are, which means that we are not the basis of the universe.

      What is you answer to the question?
      For all 'lly's "fluffiness" in communicating his position, I can't deny his essentially accurate vision. While your 14 billion years are accurate within the context that they have meaning, that context is wholly dependent upon where we fix the present moment, and by what means. No means that we can employ are independent of consciousness--our consciousness, specifically. There are no objects within a universe without observers, no past and no future. The physical does not supersede the experiential; to favor it is merely a bias.

      A materialist and a spiritualist can agree on what, essentially, is happening, and vary only on the weight they assign various actors.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    18. #68
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      You are talking about analysis of time again. I know that a human or other intelligent being is necessary for calling something the present and talking about the past. That is beside the point. The present is what it is and the past was what it was even if we never recognize it. The universe is about 13.5 billion years old, and humans have existed for about 100,000 years. That means the universe existed for many billions of years without humans. Did it not?

      Again, I am not calling into question who can recognize that. I'm just saying that it is a fact.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    19. #69
      widdershins modality Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1003
      DJ Entries
      19
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      You are talking about analysis of time again. I know that a human or other intelligent being is necessary for calling something the present and talking about the past. That is beside the point. The present is what it is and the past was what it was even if we never recognize it. The universe is about 13.5 billion years old, and humans have existed for about 100,000 years. That means the universe existed for many billions of years without humans. Did it not?

      Again, I am not calling into question who can recognize that. I'm just saying that it is a fact.
      Your "fact" requires that the linearity of time persist in the absence of an observer, that the past persist independent of a present. No such scenario is testable or otherwise possible in the universe we actually inhabit.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    20. #70
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Your "fact" requires that the linearity of time persist in the absence of an observer, that the past persist independent of a present. No such scenario is testable or otherwise possible in the universe we actually inhabit.
      It can argued by logic and math. Of course testing requires people. That doesn't mean the universe does.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    21. #71
      Member really's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,676
      Likes
      54
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Then tell me about the effects the extinction of humanity would have on the galaxies in that picture I posted.
      There would be very little "effects", but you cannot say that if there were no humans than it wouldn't change anything. Remember that the scope through which you're observing the universe is the scope of meaning that you will comprehend.

      The universe is defined to include all things that exist. Describing a small part of the universe, such as the human species, is nothing but that. That is just one perspective. If you want to narrow down the potential meaning it is to exist as a human as such, than you may as well go and bury your head in the sand. However, you can instead realize that you are part of all of this, or rather, at one with it.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I am illustrating that the universe is much older than we are, which means that we are not the basis of the universe.

      What is you answer to the question?
      In case you didn't get the message, the age of the universe doesn't mean anything to me because I don't believe in time.

    22. #72
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      There would be very little "effects", but you cannot say that if there were no humans than it wouldn't change anything. Remember that the scope through which you're observing the universe is the scope of meaning that you will comprehend.

      The universe is defined to include all things that exist. Describing a small part of the universe, such as the human species, is nothing but that. That is just one perspective. If you want to narrow down the potential meaning it is to exist as a human as such, than you may as well go and bury your head in the sand. However, you can instead realize that you are part of all of this, or rather, at one with it.
      I know that we are a tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny part of the universe.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      In case you didn't get the message, the age of the universe doesn't mean anything to me because I don't believe in time.
      You said the universe is 14 billion years old.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    23. #73
      Member Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal 1000 Hall Points Tagger Second Class Made lots of Friends on DV Referrer Bronze Veteran Second Class

      Join Date
      Nov 2009
      Posts
      441
      Likes
      534
      DJ Entries
      38
      Okay, I will admit to being rather confused right now. What exactly is it that we're debating here? I certainly understand that we're relatively insignificant compared to the rest of the universe, by sheer amount of volume and range of effect. Nothing we do can physically effect what goes on halfway across the universe, at least with current technology. I understand this. Yes, the universe was around before us, and will go on after us.

      However, if you believe, as I do, that all consciousness is somehow intertwined at a base level -- that consciousness may, in fact, be one of the basis factors for our universe -- then suddenly we do have some importance on a grand scale. Our existence, or lack thereof, as a species has some effect on the other conscious, living beings in our universe, whether here on earth, or in distant galaxies. Perhaps minute, or even unmeasurable, but it's an effect nonetheless.

      And meaning is a subjective, and entirely human, quality to project on to things. There is no objective meaning in anything. Personally, any universe, no matter how fascinating and complex, is rather meaningless if there are no conscious beings to be aware of its existence. From our perspective, with no observers it might as well have never existed. Would you agree with this? Whether or not the universe goes on without us is relatively unimportant, and indeed, impossible to say for sure. I couldn't care less what happens to the universe after all consciousness is gone... because I won't be around to see it.
      Dannon Oneironaut likes this.

    24. #74
      widdershins modality Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1003
      DJ Entries
      19
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      You are talking about analysis of time again. I know that a human or other intelligent being is necessary for calling something the present and talking about the past. That is beside the point. The present is what it is and the past was what it was even if we never recognize it. The universe is about 13.5 billion years old, and humans have existed for about 100,000 years. That means the universe existed for many billions of years without humans. Did it not?

      Again, I am not calling into question who can recognize that. I'm just saying that it is a fact.
      I'm backing up because you're misunderstanding our position at a pretty fundamental level, here. 'lly and I are not talking about analysis of or symbolic reasoning about time. When we talk about observation or experience, it's not something happening in or to the universe, separate from it; observation or experience is the process that generates the local appearance of solid forms relating in space and time. The universe is not, in any fixed or complete sense, a collection of masses under the influence of physical forces operating in space and time--only from our incomplete perspective.

      The point is not that humans or sentients in general are the super awesome center of the universe, but that the universe as we know it is only as much as we can see from where we are, a vision not only incomplete but in some fundamental respects, delusional. What you're suggesting is that in the absence of the madman, the hallucination would persist.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    25. #75
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      No, I do not think the hallucination would persist. The universe would. Our fuzzy understanding and questionable observation of it would be gone. IT would not.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •