Who is crazy?

Consider this thought experiment:

We have normal everyday reality. So there is some guy called James, considers himself rational, atheist agnostic, scientifically inclined... you get the picture. One day he discovers that he can move things with his mind. And not just some psi-wheels, but substantially, like moving pens etc. He gets tested by scientists, becomes known globally, but nobody knows how he does it. So one day he goes to this talk show and the host asks the obvious: "How do you do it!?". James answers somewhere along the lines of "I think that this obviously isn't the real world, but some kind of dream I cannot wake up from and therefore you must be figments of my imagination."

Now consider that this happens and you're watching it on TV. Now obviously, the DV members would either be turning psi wheels or doing RCs. But the question I'm asking is: How would the general population label this person. Lets exclude the 90% of the world who would see him as alien/Jesus/satan and concentrate on the "down to Earth" people.

Is he crazy for thinking that he is dreaming, or is he being rational? Not some deep philosophical question, I know, but I'm asking it anyway, just 'cuz I can.

This would most likely go above the heads of the general population. I try to avoid judging people as crazy. After all Einstein was autistic which is considered a mental disorder but he made very important contributions to physics. I think everyone is neurotic in one way or another. if James is an evolved human then it is likely that he would transcend the need to be accepted by the herd so who cares what America thinks.

Well your asking how we would react to him saying he was in a dream. I think most people would disregard the dreaming statement. Instead I think they would assume that somehow even infront of scientists he managed to fake psychokinesis.

If of course people did focus on his dreaming statement they would either think somtlething along the lines of. He is crazy, or, they might consider the possibilty of themselves dreaming. Even people who have never heard of lucid dreaming or reality checked.

Can you moves pens bonsay?

Well, yes I can. Can't you? Just joking. Not that I completely disregard the possibility.

I guess when this came to mind, I was more wondering whether the general notion of rationality holds some ideological/religious rigour. I mean , the only way we know we're not dreaming is due to the stability this waking life seems to have and the fact we know how unstable dreams are. If some rationalist just couldn't find a way to explain the event by science, then should jumping to such "extreme" answers, like it being a dream, be considered as crazy? Now that science has such a firm grasp on reality, does a person trust the established reality described by science (if being confronted with such a situation) or does he use "common sense" and just face the fact that the strange, inexplicable telekinesis is just a part of reality. But how could he? He has trusted the stability of the universe and it has never let him down, then all of a sudden he becomes the only person recorded to move pencils around.

To be honest "science" doesn't have a firm grip on reality. And science also "proves" nothing. That's why they call it the law of gravity not the fact. And also we know how gravity works but we do not know why. Gravatons are what people suspect but they have never been observed.

Imagine when the world realised that earth wasn't flat. This must have shaken up peoples perspectives about our world.

Also the dream world is quite stable and rational when you are in the dream. It's when you are lucid or awake, that's when dreams are unstable.

Would you mind telling me what it is that's causing your questing of reality? (if I interprited that correctly) If you don't want to post it on here, would you consider a PM?

Just to show how the world/science has considered creation look at this progression.

unknown-God-Evolution-Inteligent design(aliens)

I don't have any good answers to your philosophical question. Except, what do I have to do to join his insanity? :D

I don't think it makes him crazy, as he's performing something that was not possible to public knowledge and so makes him question the reality he's in. The conclusion he comes to at the same time however is also not the best one, being that he really shouldn't be coming to any conclusions at all other than that he can't know if he's still awake or dreaming. It would make sense to be confused about it, but not to say that he's no longer in the "real" reality (the one in which we all exist as ourselves) with such certainty.

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Originally Posted by Invader

I don't think it makes him crazy, as he's performing something that was not possible to public knowledge and so makes him question the reality he's in. The conclusion he comes to at the same time however is also not the best one, being that he really shouldn't be coming to any conclusions at all other than that he can't know if he's still awake or dreaming. It would make sense to be confused about it, but not to say that he's no longer in the "real" reality (the one in which we all exist as ourselves) with such certainty.

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Ivader did you write that as if that was your opinion or a guess at what people would think? Or were you saying that person is not crazy (not in your opinion the publics)

Sorry I just want clairity :)

I said it as my own opinion.

Oh ok thank you. I agree he is not crazy. Did you edit that post? because I swear it was different before "RC"

Oh I'm halucinating sorry. Maybe I'm the one who is crazy :D

Hrmmmz, I didn't edit.. Mayhaps you are.

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Originally Posted by Invader

Hrmmmz, I didn't edit.. Mayhaps you are.

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Yeah I saw your post and it looked like my screen refreshed and the post got reordered. Hence the question because the begining wasn there before.

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Originally Posted by Bonsay

He has trusted the stability of the universe and it has never let him down, then all of a sudden he becomes the only person recorded to move pencils around.

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Science doesn't say (bad English I know, science doesn't SAY anything, but whatever lol) that telekinesis is impossible. Just that it's improbable. If he really trusted in science, he would realise that maybe he is just the 1 in 10000000000000000 chance. Of course he would also try and figure out how he does it, get brain scans etc.. If he couldn't figure it out he would say "Maybe I'm dreaming or psychotic, or maybe I just can't explain how this is possible yet."

I think I get what you're trying to say though. But your analogy is bad. I'm not sure if you wanted the discussion to go deeper than that though.

This is what I get from what you are saying.

Reality does not contradict reality. Man does.

But let us suppose that reality did contradict reality.

And a man did not.

Now I ask, what is the point?

I have always found it interesting that man could imagine the greater or less than in any human body acquisition system--except one. In that one, all he could do is imagine it doing the work of the other senses. Teleporation--the work of the legs. Telekenesis, the work of the hands, mind control , the work of communication.

Bab 5--there is a hole in the mind of man.

The most fundamental forms of transference can be seen when man imagines himself.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

This is what I get from what you are saying.

Reality does not contradict reality. Man does.

But let us suppose that reality did contradict reality.

And a man did not.

Now I ask, what is the point?

I have always found it interesting that man could imagine the greater or less than in any human body acquisition system--except one. In that one, all he could do is imagine it doing the work of the other senses. Teleporation--the work of the legs. Telekenesis, the work of the hands, mind control , the work of communication.

Bab 5--there is a hole in the mind of man.

The most fundamental forms of transference can be seen when man imagines himself.

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Thank you...

There is no objective way to prove him wrong or right.

There are, however, some flaws in his reasoning.
Most dreams follow certain rules. For example, it's hard/impossible to read in a dream and you can't feel pain. Generally anything that is a reliable reality check is a characteristic of a dream. If he does as many reality checks as he can find and they all imply that he is not dreaming, then there would be a higher probability that he is not dreaming. I say higher probability because there is still the chance that he is dreaming, but the dream is so vivid that he can pass reality checks (though this could be true for any of us at any moment).

Knowing this, I would say he is probably wrong. He could be of such high intelligence that his brain can allow a consciousness for each dream character and I could be one (The axiom "I think, therefore I am" would not necessarily separate you from his mind as you would still have the physical existence of the neurons in his brain that are firing), but that is not very probable at all. From my perspective, I think the probability of him somehow having discovered a loophole in the laws of physics is higher than any of the probability of any of the conditions that would need to be true for me to be a figment of his imagination. This is based on my assumptions and reasoning and "the general population" might think it to be the other way around.

I'm just thinking in circles now...

This question boils down to the reasoning and assumptions of each individual "labeler". Since I (and I'm pretty everyone else here) don't know what most people would likely assume under these circumstances, the question you posed is unknowable, yet very interesting.

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Originally Posted by TheGopher

Most dreams follow certain rules. For example, it's hard/impossible to read in a dream and you can't feel pain. Generally anything that is a reliable reality check is a characteristic of a dream. If he does as many reality checks as he can find and they all imply that he is not dreaming, then there would be a higher probability that he is not dreaming. I say higher probability because there is still the chance that he is dreaming, but the dream is so vivid that he can pass reality checks (though this could be true for any of us at any moment).

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Let's see. . . . .

1. I've read in dreams. And to double check. I read it again. And again. It took four times for the text to change, but only because I knew I was dreaming and thought the text was supposed to change.

2. No pain? :cackle:Hah! Every sensation imaginable you can experience in a dream. Sensations do not come from the body, they come from the mind. And in dreams, it's a world of the mind.

3. Are reality checks reliable? Scores of members on this forum testify the RC went over their head. Touch the wall. Hey it's solid! Feel your body. Hey it has weight. Someone on this forum even pinched their nose in a dream, and couldn't breathe. The point of the reality check is awareness. But the routine action of a RC itself isn't enough to know whether or not you are dreaming.

The more I observe the world, the less of a difference my world has from dreams. The biggest difference I've found from dreams and waking is continuity.

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Originally Posted by juroara

Let's see. . . . .

1. I've read in dreams. And to double check. I read it again. And again. It took four times for the text to change, but only because I knew I was dreaming and thought the text was supposed to change.

2. No pain? :cackle:Hah! Every sensation imaginable you can experience in a dream. Sensations do not come from the body, they come from the mind. And in dreams, it's a world of the mind.

3. Are reality checks reliable? Scores of members on this forum testify the RC went over their head. Touch the wall. Hey it's solid! Feel your body. Hey it has weight. Someone on this forum even pinched their nose in a dream, and couldn't breathe. The point of the reality check is awareness. But the routine action of a RC itself isn't enough to know whether or not you are dreaming.

The more I observe the world, the less of a difference my world has from dreams. The biggest difference I've found from dreams and waking is continuity.

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Good point.

It still doesn't change my answer to the question. It's still not provable either way and I can't say what the rest of the population would think.
I'll have to switch change my position and say I think it's more probable that he has a super-intelligence which allows us all individual consciousnesses in his dream world. (It doesn't matter what position one takes on why he is allowed to move things with his mind since, in this scenario, that's all he is allowed to do. He can't influence his dream in any other ways and thus his dream would be indistinguishable from normal reality + his superpower.)

Crazy is the opposite of what the majority claim to be rational. A spherical Earth was once thought to be crazy.

Crazy is deemed irrational, but it can be just a different perspective.

Statistically, his dreaming explanation holds the fewest variables from his standpoint. To him it makes complete and total sense. Now, we know he is dead wrong...we think, feel, and move about on our own free will. But try telling him that. He can do the impossible. Nobody is crazy. He rationally concluded he is dreaming, and we all respectfully disagree. Really, there is no way to convince him otherwise. You can't prove to him that you're conscious.

Believing life is just a dream, isn't the same as believing everyone is just a mindless dream character