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    Thread: Predestination Vs. Free Will

    1. #1
      Paranoid Chaos's Avatar
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      From the beginning of time everything that will happen in each of our lives was already planned out. Whether by Evolution, God, or whatever, everything that we have ever done or everything that we are going to do was already decided for us. So the question is, even though our lives were previously decided for us, do we really have a choice in any of our actions? For example: Say you had a choice between going through door #1, or door #2, and you choose to go through door #1, have you really made the choice? It was predestined that you would go through that door, so how much of the decision was really in your hands? And, if everything is predestined, and no-one has a choice about anything, then why are we here? What is the purpose of our existance? Yeah, I know, I'm going off on a tangent, but this shit really bothers me.
      Valmancer likes this.
      "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —George Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

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      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      I think of it more this way.
      It is not predetermined in the manner of speaking from an outside source such as a benevolent being or a theory, evolution and such. But consciousness.
      It is! period. At what ever level it is.
      It exists and what happens you can fight it or act upon it. Eiether way, it is a foregone conclusion. Future does not exist. It is only now. Each decision that is made changes a half million scenarios.

      This, IMO gives the false illusion that things are predestined or predetermined.
      So free will, of coarse.
      Dealing with and reacting in the NOW to the past and future are the current situation.

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      I disagree with your view of predestination, (EDIT: Chaos&#39 - however, I also do not believe in free will. We have no choice in our decisions, in my opinion, but there is also an element of randominity in life that means our paths cannot be predetermined.

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      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pensive View Post
      I disagree with your view of predestination - however, I also do not believe in free will. We have no choice in our decisions, in my opinion, but there is also an element of randominity in life that means our paths cannot be predetermined.[/b]

      If it is random, how can it be predetermined?
      As I sit here and decide to blink my eyes 32 times. Who determined that action?


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      Quote Originally Posted by Howietzer View Post

      If it is random, how can it be predetermined?
      As I sit here and decide to blink my eyes 32 times. Who determined that action?
      [/b]
      I believe I said that I disagreed with (EDIT: Chaos' idea of) predetermination.

    6. #6
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pensive View Post
      I believe I said that I disagreed with predetermination.[/b]
      Well you said you disagree with either mine or chaos' view of predestination.

      I disagree with your view of predestination - however, I also do not believe in free will. We have no choice in our decisions[/b]
      What separates No free will and predestination?
      I am not saying they are the same, I guess I am just needing some clarification or for you to elaborate.

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      Oh yeah... bugger... I'll edit my posts to make it more clear.

      And what seperates free will and predestination is that it is possible to have free will, but an element of randominity will make it impossible to predetermine your decisions.

      Hope that makes sense... I'm probably talking crapola.

    8. #8
      Paranoid Chaos's Avatar
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      But couldn't the randomness itself be predetermined? Everything that happens in the universe was bound to happen. It was predetermined b/c it was set in stone before we even came into the equation. I was predestined to be born, to live, to die, and make numerous decisions that actually weren't my choices at all, but were already chosen for me. I don't see how it could be impossible for the universe itself to predetermine a person's choices. Its not like a person or God is just sitting behind the controls, and moving us around (though it seems like that sometimes). It seems as if we have absolutely no choices to make in terms of our own lives, b/c in the creation of the universe, they were already decided for us. We have no free will, b/c destiny takes it away.
      "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —George Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

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      Quote Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
      But couldn't the randomness itself be predetermined? Everything that happens in the universe was bound to happen. It was predetermined b/c it was set in stone before we even came into the equation. I was predestined to be born, to live, to die, and make numerous decisions that actually weren't my choices at all, but were already chosen for me. I don't see how it could be impossible for the universe itself to predetermine a person's choices. Its not like a person or God is just sitting behind the controls, and moving us around (though it seems like that sometimes). It seems as if we have absolutely no choices to make in terms of our own lives, b/c in the creation of the universe, they were already decided for us. We have no free will, b/c destiny takes it away.[/b]
      I totally understand what you're saying. We're obviously decades, possibly centuries away from finding out about the nature of randomness (I checked, it's a word...). Until then, it's just assumption. And I'm assuming that random means... well... random.

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      I'm kind of the opposite of Howetzer (big surprize, huh, Howie?): I see no possible source of free will, without resortiing to supernatural explanations, therefore Ii believe it is an illusion created by our consciousness;it is a story that we tell ourselves as our lives happen. Whether things are predetermined or random has no effect on whether there is free will or not. There is probably an element of both, i.e. classic and quantum physics.

      I think we have to live our lives as if we have free will, however. I see no other possible way to live. That doesn't bother me.

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      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Moonbeam View Post
      I'm kind of the opposite of Howetzer (big surprize, huh, Howie?): I see no possible source of free will, without resortiing to supernatural explanations, therefore Ii believe it is an illusion created by our consciousness;it is a story that we tell ourselves as our lives happen. Whether things are predetermined or random has no effect on whether there is free will or not. There is probably an element of both, i.e. classic and quantum physics.

      I think we have to live our lives as if we have free will, however. I see no other possible way to live. That doesn't bother me.[/b]

      Actually Moonbeam, if you read my first post I think you and I are on EXACTLY the same wave length. Unless I don't understand your post or you don't understand mine...Or I don't understand mine.

      Also we both like guns!


    12. #12
      Look away wendylove's Avatar
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      Neurologically speaking their is no free will as your synapeses fire and this causes your action. You can't control your neurons so you can't control your actions. Even if you did control your neurons you will have neurons controlling neurons, which still leaves you with no free will. Also even if everything was random then it wouldn't give yourself free will like a coin is random does this give the coin free will. Randomness is about statistics not choice so having so statistically complex would not give it free will as the choice would be random hence taking away the will.
      Xaqaria
      The planet Earth exhibits all of these properties and therefore can be considered alive and its own single organism by the scientific definition.
      7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms.
      does the planet Earth reproduce, well no unless you count the moon.

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      Quote Originally Posted by wendylove View Post
      Neurologically speaking their is no free will as your synapeses fire and this causes your action. You can't control your neurons so you can't control your actions. Even if you did control your neurons you will have neurons controlling neurons, which still leaves you with no free will. Also even if everything was random then it wouldn't give yourself free will like a coin is random does this give the coin free will. Randomness is about statistics not choice so having so statistically complex would not give it free will as the choice would be random hence taking away the will.[/b]
      My opinion completely - which is why free will logically cannot exist, whilst predetermination is impossible at the same time.

    14. #14
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      It's really impossible to act in accordance with a perfectly deterministic point of view - which isn't to say you can't have that point of view, but when you move to act, it has to be thrown out the window. An assumption of free will, indeterminacy, whatever has to exist when you decide upon a course of action; this follows from you being necessarily unable to know all the preexisting conditions shaping that action. Trying to wrap your mind around what deciding something would be like if you could predict ahead of time what that decision would be is futile; that kind of knowledge is impossible to have.

      You're a part of a system being determined by all the parts of that system; it's physically impossible to have a "map of the universe" that tells you unerringly what will happen in the future since that map would have to be bigger than the universe itself to accomodate all the info - and for you to use it, would have to be a part of the universe like you are, which cannot be (a part of the whole cannot be larger than the whole&#33.

      So when you come to do a deed, you can't act under the assumption of determinism, because to do so you'd have to know unerringly all the antecedent causes of the universe acting upon you, an impossibility. It always seems to your uninformed mind that you could have done a variety of things, and that blindness is itself a fundamental deterministic part of the decision-making process.

      Am I being obtuse? I just wanted to spew my thoughts out. In short, I think determinism exists, or at the very least exists within the bounds of a single universe/reality (indeterminism might exist - flip a coin and it may come up either heads or tails, but for each outcome there comes into being a parallel universe for which there could have been no other result). "Know that you're a machine, act like you're not." is my maxim, I suppose.
      Adopted by Richter

    15. #15
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by wendylove View Post
      Neurologically speaking their is no free will as your synapeses fire and this causes your action. You can't control your neurons so you can't control your actions. Even if you did control your neurons you will have neurons controlling neurons, which still leaves you with no free will. Also even if everything was random then it wouldn't give yourself free will like a coin is random does this give the coin free will. Randomness is about statistics not choice so having so statistically complex would not give it free will as the choice would be random hence taking away the will.[/b]

      OK. Scientifically speaking , if you want to go down that path sure. I can't control my neurons firing.
      Is that to say I can not consciously review a thought and analyze it?

      I could say a will is rather costly too, because attorney fees are high. LOL

      If it were not for action and reaction we would not all be different. But If you wish to say that all of our neurons fire differently then, well I guess we are just a bunch of firing neurons with names.

      I believe consciousness arrives and exists without thought.


    16. #16
      Look away wendylove's Avatar
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      I believe consciousness arrives and exists without thought.[/b]
      Tell that too people who have damage to their frontal cortex. I guess you can say your brain is your soul, however you still get the problem that neurologically speaking with have no free will.
      Is that to say I can not consciously review a thought and analyze it?[/b]
      Yesh, however you will have neurons reviewing neurons, which defeat your point of free will. If a mathematical programs mathematically looks at itself it is still a mathematical program. If I review something I am still just firing neurons from my frontal region of my brain, which I have no control off.
      So when you come to do a deed, you can't act under the assumption of determinism, because to do so you'd have to know unerringly all the antecedent causes of the universe acting upon you, an impossibility. It always seems to your uninformed mind that you could have done a variety of things, and that blindness is itself a fundamental deterministic part of the decision-making process.[/b]
      Offcourse the limited scope off the human mind can't percieve this determined universe, however everything is determined as time can't change. Good point if you knew your future then you would have free will in terms of time because you can change your future although if you change your future then the determined future would be change, which free will argument collaspes here. You have no free will so everything must be determined. Also randomness must be determined as something being complex and statistically complex doesn't give itself chance. Reminds me of Road to Reality by Rodger Penrose when he said that if the universe was completely random, which the copenhegan interpretation suggest then what would be free will as everything would just be random. If I randomly pick off a gun and shoot someone does this give me free will.
      Xaqaria
      The planet Earth exhibits all of these properties and therefore can be considered alive and its own single organism by the scientific definition.
      7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms.
      does the planet Earth reproduce, well no unless you count the moon.

    17. #17
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by wendylove View Post
      Tell that too people who have damage to their frontal cortex. I guess you can say your brain is your soul, however you still get the problem that neurologically speaking with have no free will.

      Yesh, however you will have neurons reviewing neurons, which defeat your point of free will. If a mathematical programs mathematically looks at itself it is still a mathematical program. If I review something I am still just firing neurons from my frontal region of my brain, which I have no control off.[/b]
      I completely understand your point. Although I don't disagree with it, when you strip the question down to it's most fundamental stage, which you have done and answered, then the topic is closed.

      However, regardless of my conscious actions I still believe that the amount of neurons firing and the endless variables that can derive from that can almost eliminate the fact that it was not a free choice. Like breathing. I can't stop my self from berating as, I can't stop myself from thinking, But I feel that I can claim individuality to thought. Just as I can choose to breath in random order.

      Regardless of what brain functioning is there or is not, consciousness is. Now whether a brain damaged person can tap into any level of it, is another story.



    18. #18
      Look away wendylove's Avatar
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      I completely understand your point. Although I don't disagree with it, when you strip the question down to it's most fundamental stage, which you have done and answered, then the topic is closed.

      However, regardless of my conscious actions I still believe that the amount of neurons firing and the endless variables that can derive from that can almost eliminate the fact that it was not a free choice. Like breathing. I can't stop my self from berating as, I can't stop myself from thinking, But I feel that I can claim individuality to thought. Just as I can choose to breath in random order.

      Regardless of what brain functioning is there or is not, consciousness is. Now whether a brain damaged person can tap into any level of it, is another story.[/b]
      Good point. I don't know if a system can become more then itself. If a computer can become conscious then maybe a person can have free will, however as I say it would be near impossible. We are determined by the universe i.e. brain tissue to nerves and synapesis to atoms. Have atoms got free will? No, then wouldn't nerves and synapesis have no free will then wouldn't brain tissue have no free will.
      Xaqaria
      The planet Earth exhibits all of these properties and therefore can be considered alive and its own single organism by the scientific definition.
      7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms.
      does the planet Earth reproduce, well no unless you count the moon.

    19. #19
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by wendylove View Post
      Good point. I don't know if a system can become more then itself. If a computer can become conscious then maybe a person can have free will, however as I say it would be near impossible. We are determined by the universe i.e. brain tissue to nerves and synapesis to atoms. Have atoms got free will? No, then wouldn't nerves and synapesis have no free will then wouldn't brain tissue have no free will.[/b]
      Yes, I would think so.
      Maybe call it "No free will with a personal twist."
      Being scientifically sound, why doesn't this hold up in court?

    20. #20
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      Keep in mind the compatibilist notion of free will - which is simply, a state in which you are able to fulfill the wants, desires, needs that arise from your character. Your character itself is determined, and the things you do to actualize it are determined, but this makes pragmatically a lot more sense, because we are still inclined to call an average US citizen more "free" than an inmate.
      Adopted by Richter

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      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Spamtek View Post
      Keep in mind the compatibilist notion of free will - which is simply, a state in which you are able to fulfill the wants, desires, needs that arise from your character. Your character itself is determined, and the things you do to actualize it are determined, but this makes pragmatically a lot more sense, because we are still inclined to call an average US citizen more "free" than an inmate.[/b]
      I agree with you.
      And your above post is very well state too.


    22. #22
      Member Northastings's Avatar
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      Pre-destination adheres to the fact that there is an intelligent being deciding our lives for us. Yes, we do have the free will to decide our lives from moment to moment. The whole subject is illogical, you can't answer this question unless you get to live life more than once or change decisions you've made in the past. If you do not believe in an all-powerful being that decides our lives for us, then we are not pre-determined nor do we have free will, we have the ability to experience our lives the way they happen to be.

    23. #23
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      I'm gonna go with "predestination". It's the master-key of excuses.

    24. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Northastings View Post
      Pre-destination adheres to the fact that there is an intelligent being deciding our lives for us. Yes, we do have the free will to decide our lives from moment to moment. The whole subject is illogical, you can't answer this question unless you get to live life more than once or change decisions you've made in the past. If you do not believe in an all-powerful being that decides our lives for us, then we are not pre-determined nor do we have free will, we have the ability to experience our lives the way they happen to be.[/b]
      I'm not sure I'm following. "The ability to experience our lives the way they happen to be" sounds a lot like saying "we get to see what we see," or "I am what I am," it's self-referential mundanity. If not uncaused/free action and if not determined action, then what remains?
      Adopted by Richter

    25. #25
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      Well, I guess I'm not sure how I view free will at the moment. If you have the free will to make a decision, shouldn't you be able to change that decision whenever you feel like it? It doesn't seem like free will to me that if you make a decision, it is set in stone. That would make the rest of your life pre-determined by the past decisions you made. I'm going to try and draw what I am saying because I know this doesn't make much sense.



      What I'm saying is, the circumstances in which you live constantly change and maybe both are able to exist at the same time. That's what I meant, you live your life thinking that you're making choices because you want to but in the end you end up the same no matter why choices you make.

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