Thread: Image of God, Heaven and Hell, Etc.

Let's not conflate religion and spirituality. Let's not even conflate deism with spirituality. These are entirely separate concepts. Spirituality is shared by all humans, including (and perhaps especially) atheists. Spirituality is full appreciation of the grandeur of existence, without any need for some juvenile power fantasy involving sky-daddies.

Originally Posted by cmind

Let's not conflate religion and spirituality. Let's not even conflate deism with spirituality. These are entirely separate concepts. Spirituality is shared by all humans, including (and perhaps especially) atheists. Spirituality is full appreciation of the grandeur of existence, without any need for some juvenile power fantasy involving sky-daddies.

What a wonderous universe this is without god in it.

Originally Posted by cmind

Let's not conflate religion and spirituality. Let's not even conflate deism with spirituality. These are entirely separate concepts. Spirituality is shared by all humans, including (and perhaps especially) atheists. Spirituality is full appreciation of the grandeur of existence, without any need for some juvenile power fantasy involving sky-daddies.

No, I believe atheism is the only religion that refers to sky-daddies. Other than that; I don't have a clue what your post has to do with anything else in this thread.

Sure Xaq.

Spoiler for Spartiate should have done this himself, these pictures are huge:

Oh, so that's where this meme came from

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Sure Xaq.

Spoiler for Spartiate should have done this himself, these pictures are huge:

Taking a couple of renaissance depictions of biblical scenes as evidence for or against religion in any context is like gleening all of your information for an important book report from the cover of the sparknotes booklet you got at the dollar store.

Are you saying that these illustrations do not represent the popular image of Christian deities? Because I'm pretty sure that's what most people picture in their minds...

Having virtually no pertinent data to draw conlcusions on (although I'm nearly certain I have way more than you) I can still say that I'm pretty confident that you are completely off the mark. Even if you were to ask a christian what they picture when they think of god and they were to say they picture a old white bearded man, that doesn't mean that that is what they literally think god is; only that that is what they prefer to picture in their head. Most people who believe god is omnipresent (like christians) would admit that there is no accurate way to depict god.

Sure, but the common perception is a pearly gate in the clouds of heaven, where god and jesus and some other folks all live. And Satan and his ilk live at the center of the earth in a boiling lake of lava.

If that were true, it wouldn't be just christianity that believes the next world isn't much different from this one. Regardless, I think most people's ideas about heaven and hell are a lot more complex than you may wish to portray them. Strawmen are much easier to knock down, after all.

Maybe after some thought, but for a lot of people, when you just say "heaven and hell," the imagery I gave is one of the first things that comes to mind. It's the imagery most portrayed in popular culture. Whether people actually believe that's the way things are or not is a separate issue. You say "god" and a lot of christians picture a mighty Zeus-like figure. After their brains kick in after the initial knee-jerk reflex, they may picture something entirely different, if anything at all.

Whether or not their images are like those in paintings, believing that there is a being "out there" who can change the universe just by you asking him to seems a little off doesn't it? This is specifically what 95% of christians(and most other religions) believe.

I vcan dig using the religious metaphors, but it's important to be specific, to let it be known that you are using a metaphor not talking about a real thing. Most people believe that the metaphor is a real thing.

I think religion can work to foster spiritual understanding for a very small number of people but for the most part it just destroys people's will and makes them subserviant.

The image of an old bearded man as God in the Christian religion was given to us by: a commissioned mural painting, and TV!!! First, it needs to be understood that early Christianity it was SIN - a sin to represent God in anyway except in the most abstract way. It was believed that no image could possibly represent God, and therefore any picture of God would be a false idol. (a belief still very strong in the middle east)

When artists were commissioned they were instructed that they could represent God in two ways: sunlight or as Jesus Christ. And even then, to paint Jesus realistically was also considered a false idol because no one knew what Jesus looked like. That's right, even the popular image of Jesus at one point in time in christianity was considered just "an idea", not an absolute and certainly not a portrait.

It wasn't until many many many years later that the Church decided that realistic paintings were okay. The change came at a time when the Vatican wanted to rule. The old bearded man in the sky is a portrait of the Pope. So that when people look at the Pope, they see God!! Power!! Power!! Power!!

But the bible describes God as omnipresent. What human face can represent that, except every human face? And while were at it, every animal, every tree? The bible describes God as a holy trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The first two get a lot of baggage, but almost everyone ignores the third.

This is text book bible. Holy Spirit = God. And why is that important? Because the Holy Spirit has always been given a FEMININE pronoun. She moves through people and inspires them, she is the very source of life. Definitely I agree that the church portrays God as male. But here it is in the original bible, God is both masculine and feminine.

I also hate to burst the bubbles of atheists, but no, I can't think of any christian that actually sees God as an old bearded man in the sky. The chruch isn't promoting this image anymore.

How does the average christian see God? Its from my experience as a former catholic, that God was faceless. The church tended to describe God beyond anything I can comprehend, and because I'm too dumb to comprehend God - I should instead turn to Jesus as my mediator. So, many christians envision Jesus. Many envision a radiant sun. Many just draw a blank.

But the real image of God in christianity isn't an old bearded man in the sky. No, the real image of God as portrayed by christianity is : Distant. Serious. Judgmental.

And who wants a relationship with that kind of being?

There is a new face of God that many christians are adopting to (while others resist it as heresy). The source is coming from near death experiences. The God of NDEs doesn't judge you (you judge yourself). The God of NDEs seems to be at the center of the universe, but also right here inside of you. The God of NDEs isn't serious, but a giant ball of bliss!

The experience of God or something like God is practically universal in NDEs. Its a very human experience. Christians, Pagans, Jews, Atheists. It didn't matter. What so many experienced was a deep connection to everything, literally everything, joy, elation, expansion of consciousness, etc. Some experienced meeting the source of this connection, others became the source. Some called their experience meeting God, others remained with a more Buddhist perspective of it. But their experience was the same.

I try to understand them. I try to envision what they experienced.

Because, there is something I believe in firmly. It doesn't really matter what or who you THINK God is, its just a mental concept. Its just a definition, its just an idea. And it doesn't matter how smart or how complete your idea of God is, it will always be FALSE. There is no true concept of God.

Because concepts don't equal to experiences.

And there is something else I also believe in firmly. I believe in the human experience. Some people try to deny others their experience. They try to tell them their NDE was nothing but a random hallucination created by a dying brain.

But it doesn't work that way. You don't get to tell someone what experience in their life is meaningful or meaningless. You don't get to tell someone what experience in their life is real or fantasy. Our reality is nothing but that which we experience (so some claim we can find the experience of God in the brain, tell me what experience can't we find in the brain?). And it would be nice if more people acknowledged, based on first hand accounts, that this experience of God - whether you take it in the buddhist or christian or hindu - whatever - is one of the most mind-blowing experiences, and one that has shaped all religions.

At the heart of all world religions is a person who experienced something concepts can't describe.

You can't debate over experiences. You can't argue over experiences. Experiences are.

Originally Posted by juroara

I also hate to burst the bubbles of atheists, but no, I can't think of any christian that actually sees God as an old bearded man in the sky. The chruch isn't promoting this image anymore.

You should know that many atheists used to be Christian and still have their mental image of god from childhood...

Originally Posted by Spartiate

You should know that many atheists used to be Christian and still have their mental image of god from childhood...

Emphasis on childhood; that magical time when everything we hear is taken literally with little to no critical thought applied. Most people develop more nuanced beliefs as they get older, whether or not they convert or stay within the same religion.

I'm not actually arguing that all Christians view god as a bearded sky giant, just that it's a popular impersonation. It's not like atheists invented that image.

I'm always annoyed by certain portrayals of God, Christ and the angels.
God is spirit. He has no form. I tend to "see" him as energy. Jesus was his son (not God) and on earth he was a Jew. Which means he looked like a Jew- not some blond haired, blue-eyed European or such. The angels are sexless. They too are spirit, though in the distant they took on bodies which were always (I believe) male. There are no baby angels.

I tend to picture heaven as I do the earth. It's spirit though, so invisible. I tend to imagine it as some sort of parallel reality because physical things often have spiritual counterparts.
I don't believe in hell as a fiery place of torment. Rather, I visualize a graveyard.

It's hard to give shape to the invisible and formless, which is why God put spiritual things into physical terms people could understand. And as visually oriented humans we tend to create physical representations of our beliefs because they make those beliefs easier to understand.
When I picture heaven, I see myself sitting at the feet of God being taught. I still don't really "see" God though- just energy (like excess heat radiating off a hot road) and I feel love and a sense of pride (or rather, that God is proud of me- not that I'm proud of myself)
Sometimes I'll simply see a vast library with all the worlds "secrets". I even dream of that library and I'm always filled with a sense of awe.

I do not believe in an after life. I am more concerned with the here and now.

As far as God goes, I have two ideas, the abstract and the real. What men call god, the anthropomorphism, has two roots, the psychological--the image in the mind of where man is suppose to go based upon his own definition (a crafter, a maker in order to maintain and promote his life) and secondly the apparent influences of on mankind by ET--vastly superior intellect in the universe that seems to direct other life in the universe--something we ourselves may do in the distant future. I know it is real and keeps a very low profile. I really don't think it will be something like mad cowboys running rampant in the galaxies.

The pure abstract is simply Truth. That is a lack of difference between a language and that which the language encodes. (which is fundamental to craft in general).

All of these interpretations are consistent with the definition of sentience.

The simple anthropomorphic interpretation of God is something I can not subscribe to.

I would think that those beliefs that reinforce our basic definition as a crafter are required for a good psychological structure.

My first epiphany came when I was in diapers--that there was a right and a wrong--and certainly a right way to be. The truth of it is easily demonstrable. Not many people reach an understanding of right and wrong evern before they can speak.

I also believe God is formless. I honestly have no idea what to make of Him. When I think of Him and try to grasp for visualization I just like Zhaylin see only energy. However I believe God is far beyond energy and there are no properties in the known Universe that would encapsulate his essence. In short, God would be ultimately invisible for Humans and one could only envision God. When I think of Jesus as a Human Im actually able to reconstruct a mental representation on what he looked like. I certainly do not believe he had strawberry blonde hair and baby blue eyes. I believe Christ was more akin to this.


Created by artisitic child prodigy Akiane Kramarik at the age of 8 years. She has never been taught really anything about Christ as her Mother was an Atheist. I believe her art holds truth. We all like to represent Christ as someone who is ideally the same image as we are. Which is why you have a Blonde Haired blue eyed Christ. But when we read Scripture it's pretty certain that Christ would look more like the avarage Jew. I also see this image as a pretty realistic representation of Christ.

So do you christians here who don't believe in the old beardy version of believe in angels and heaven? Are there other dimensions of reality and if so what do they look like and why do you believe in them?

When you say that god is formless do you mean that he can take any form or that he has no form?

Originally Posted by stonedape

So do you christians here who don't believe in the old beardy version of believe in angels and heaven?

I believe there are Angels and there is a Heaven

Originally Posted by stonedape

Are there other dimensions of reality and if so what do they look like and why do you believe in them?

I think it's a possibility. I do not think that God dwells in extra dimensions, God would be essentially beyond dimensions. I really do not think it's unlikely that God could've created multiple Universe's IMO. If there are extra dimensions we will more than likely never know about them, we can only speculate.

Originally Posted by stonedape

When you say that god is formless do you mean that he can take any form or that he has no form?

The Almighty Father Jehovah has NEVER been seen by Humans. IMO, The Almighty Father doesn't take forms.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I believe there are Angels and there is a Heaven]

Is God in heaven as well, is it a place like earth is? Where is it and what is it made of?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I think it's a possibility. I do not think that God dwells in extra dimensions, God would be essentially beyond dimensions. I really do not think it's unlikely that God could've created multiple Universe's IMO. If there are extra dimensions we will more than likely never know about them, we can only speculate.

Is heaven another dimension?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

The Almighty Father Jehovah has NEVER been seen by Humans. IMO, The Almighty Father doesn't take forms.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Can we ever really experience God then?

If there is such a thing as God, I don't think it actually does anything in the way we think of "doing" something conventionally, but rather acts as a sort of medium through which the existence of all things is possible, and through which all things are connected. I don't think it would have a personality, I don't think it would necessarily think or be conscious either.

But it's also shortsighted to formulate any conclusions about something we can't even know exists. It happens often nevertheless; people make assumptions about god and use that as justification for being against it, when the reality is that no one would know what god could ever be like. Oh well.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Is God in heaven as well, is it a place like earth is?

I believe that God is in Heaven.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Where is it and what is it made of?

I honestly do not know. I know as it's stated in the beginning God created the Heavens, but this may or may not include the same Heaven where God is. The Heaven's created in the Bible is essentially anything outside of Earth which encompasses the entire known Universe.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Is heaven another dimension?

It may or it may be something beyond dimensions. One thing I keep in mind when trying to wrap my little brain around the concept of God is this verse.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Can we ever really experience God then?

Yes we can. We have experienced God through Jesus Christ.