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    Thread: How can Spirituality be studied Scientifically?

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      How can Spirituality be studied Scientifically?

      I'm kind of sick of separating the two. People act like because spirituality is mostly a personal experience it therefore cannot be studied empirically. But Science exists to provide at least a basic foundation of consensus upon which to test our personal experiences. Nothing falls outside the realm of Science. Science is a method to observe the world.

      So if your answer is "Spirituality cannot be studied Scientifically" provide a reason why or gtfo and take your dead horse with you. This is a thread for examining what possible ways Spirituality can be studied Scientifically or at least empirically.

      Jung used the words archetypes to describe basic mechanisms that exist within all of us, universally. If we were to specify this examination to the dimensional space we travel through after we die and before we are born, what sort of attributes can we reach consensus about regarding this 4th or 5th dimension? Do we know what it is or have any theories?
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      "Magic is just science we don't understand yet"

      The problem with studying Spirituality Scientifically is that its hard to find a rock solid physical proof of any Spiritual experience. And the 'same' spiritual experience will differ at least a bit between two persons.
      I mean if you try to explain gravity to the biggest septic you just push him off the building, but how do you explain lucid dreams to him?

      But I'm sure that slowly but surely as it was in the past some of spiritual experiences will enter the science world.

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      Science can't study spirituality because scientist are too intelligent to waste their time with that shit.

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      Right, things like DMT, near-death experiences and ancient books describing the after-life are the basis to start, essentially. For instance, between the Tibetan Book of the Dead and near-death.com I've noticed a similar sort of process is undergone after death in order to cleanse the spirit and allow it to be reborn. For one, the spirit is allowed to fuck around in its own dreamscape and live out its unfulfilled dreams. For two, there are pitfalls where the spirit can get sucked into illusion and forget the rebirth process. For three, there seems to be a life replay happening where you're forced to witness your life from an unfragmented perception.

      But besides just the afterlife, you can also define spirituality as the postulate that consciousness comes before manifestation (as matter is condensed energy, energy is condensed consciousness)

      So we can also look for proofs that the universe, by default, is alive or aware in some form, even if this is perfect awareness of perfect emptiness due to lack of sensory function. For instance, did they ever figure out what the Higgs Particle is? Because I'm pretty sure it's attention/focus/awareness.

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      Arguing that consciousness is energy when it is blatantly obvious that consciousness is directly linked to the physical and chemical properties of the brain is just pure arrogance. If you give someone a lobotomy their entire personality is changed, if consciousness were simply energy how could this be possible? Attempting to argue that consciousness is something more than the biochemical processes in our brain is an exercise in ignorant futility.

      The Higgs Boson Particle was postulated to be the sub atomic particle responsible for giving things mass. It is completely unrelated to attention/focus/awareness; I don't know where the hell you got that idea from. Not to mention the latest research from the Hadron Collider gives the Higgs Boson <5% chance of even existing.

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      Quote Originally Posted by LikesToTrip View Post
      Arguing that consciousness is energy when it is blatantly obvious that consciousness is directly linked to the physical and chemical properties of the brain is just pure arrogance. If you give someone a lobotomy their entire personality is changed, if consciousness were simply energy how could this be possible? Attempting to argue that consciousness is something more than the biochemical processes in our brain is an exercise in ignorant futility.
      Please reread the post Mr Strawman. I never said it was simply energy. It's also not simply material. Your claim is equally as arrogant as the one you pretended I made.

      The Higgs Boson Particle was postulated to be the sub atomic particle responsible for giving things mass. It is completely unrelated to attention/focus/awareness; I don't know where the hell you got that idea from. Not to mention the latest research from the Hadron Collider gives the Higgs Boson <5% chance of even existing.
      Attention/focus/awareness is what gives things mass. Therefore you're right, the Higgs particle does not actually exist.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      Attention/focus/awareness is what gives things mass. Therefore you're right, the Higgs particle does not actually exist.
      This should help you understand why they're incompatible.

      You're claiming spirituality can be studied empirically and then acting as a terrible ambassador. The above has no empirical evidence whatsoever (alongside being bizarre; why mass? Why not charge? Mass is just something that causes acceleration, why is consciousness involved? How did planets form before life without mass?), and yet you are claiming it as true, without reservation. What exactly did you think empiricism was..?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      This should help you understand why they're incompatible.

      You're claiming spirituality can be studied empirically and then acting as a terrible ambassador. The above has no empirical evidence whatsoever (alongside being bizarre; why mass? Why not charge? Mass is just something that causes acceleration, why is consciousness involved? How did planets form before life without mass?), and yet you are claiming it as true, without reservation. What exactly did you think empiricism was..?
      I am stating it as if it were true, granted. But I am not trying to argue it's true using any circular logic. I'm putting it on the table as possible in order to find proof for it because it resonates with my personal experiences. This is where the discussion part happens.

      Even if a person undergoes a lobotomy that doesn't mean they lose awareness, necessarily, but they do lose their means of compiling this information. The brain is obviously integral to conscious function and coordination (at least on this dimension) but that doesn't make it a requirement for consciousness itself.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Psychology and parapsychology are only ones that come in my mind. Everyone who has basic knowledge of psychology as science knows how hard it is to research compared to the more "materialistic" sciences like physics or chemistry.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      I am stating it as if it were true, granted. But I am not trying to argue it's true using any circular logic. I'm putting it on the table as possible in order to find proof for it because it resonates with my personal experiences.
      You were knocked unconscious and started levitating?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      You were knocked unconscious and started levitating?
      Are the letters GTFO a siren for trolling or something?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      Are the letters GTFO a siren for trolling or something?
      Nah, ignorance is though.

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      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      Are the letters GTFO a siren for trolling or something?
      Trying to elicit a response via humour is not trolling. Learn to keep your lid on when talking to dissenters. What is wrong with the point I made?

      Quote Originally Posted by LikesToTrip View Post
      Nah, ignorance is though.
      Oh, you've levitated too?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Oh, you've levitated too?
      I used to levitate quite often. It's probably my favorite exit method.

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      Please PM me about more details.

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      If the universe is somehow aware then by definition all science actually is spirituality.

      I think superstring-theory is doing a good job in explaining the universe we live in. I do not understand it. I know a bit of it's history but it's gonna take a lot of years for me to grasp the content. And how this can explain anything at all. But for what it's worth i think initially string theory said that spacetime is made up of 4 dimensions. There where some math poblems. Then M-Theory supposed that there are 11 dimensions. The 4 dimensions of spacetime. And 6 more dimensions that is not in our perception. and a little circle dimension for time. So 11 dimensions. But they where again experiencing math problems that i don't understand.

      I believe that 11 dimensions is a misconception. In fact i think the first and second and 4th dimension don't excist at all. So our 3d dimension is actually one dimension. When you add the 6 dimensions then the universe consists of 7 dimensions. All in the same dimension of time. (Which correlates with what the Kogi say. That there are seven worlds. I heared them say it in From the heart of the world . Which is a really nice watch. So glad i found the link.)

      F-theory came up with a 12th dimension. Which i think is actually the initial 11th dimension of time. At first glance i thought it looks a lot like the I-Ching! And later i found out that some string theorists claim that superstring theory can in fact explain how the I-Ching works. If time runs in all dimensions. Then time might be awareness itself experiencing the moment at hand in all dimensions at once.

      If superstring theory is real and describes the universe we live in. Then we must assume that the universe has 7 (or 9) dimensions. And that they all share the same continuŁm. And then it's the question if and how we can observe these dimensions and get a clear picture of what it is.

      Ofcourse it might not be the case. And it will all come down to analyzing experiences and finding patterns. Dreams are a good source of awareness without the body. I don't know if dreams actually happen somewhere in the universe we are in right now. But technically they do follow the laws of physics. The feelings described going from SP vibrations into a vivid lucid dream sounds and feels like vibrations described in quantum mechanics.

      Technically , matter can be completely intangible. It's not impossible to propose hyperspace is experienced when ur awareness shifts to a different size relative to you. Or on a different vibrational frequency. The novelty of such experiences could be due to having a continuum. That might not be seperate from ours.

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      We can find clues in the relationships between discoveries by modern mathematicians and esoteric philosophy. For instance, in Buddhism there are 10 levels of realization plus one final level of enlightenment. These 10 levels may refer to awareness of the other dimensions of reality.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      This:
      In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm.
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      Xei
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      I'm a mathematician. Wanna run some of those relationships by me; you know, to check that the mathematicians are saying their stuff backs up the spiritualists, and not just that spiritualists are saying that mathematicians are backing up the spiritualists?

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      What is spirituality?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Mass is just something that causes acceleration
      Inertia c:

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      Xei
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      I was distilling things for the purpose of making the pertinent argument clear.

      Yes, mass causes acceleration and also retards it, the funky effect being that acceleration of an object due to a massive body is independent of its mass, ultimately resulting in a reformulation of gravitation as a property of the curvature of space rather than the motions of objects, and... this is why I didn't go down this path.
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      Well force causes acceleration, mass only retards it. Sure it causes acceleration in other bodies with the gravitational field it causes. I still don't completely get how two different masses with two different gravitational fields accelerate at the same speed in one lol

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      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      I still don't completely get how two different masses with two different gravitational fields accelerate at the same speed in one lol
      Yea, I would think it would require atleast two lols to get two different masses with two different gravitational fields to accelerate at the same rate.

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      What do you mean by Spirituality? My definition: Spirituality is about the inner subjective world that is a perpetual witness to phenomena.

      In short, the reason for the incompatibility is because there is a major paradigm difference. One world is linear (science), the other is not. But they are not opposites.

      The closest science has gotten to spirituality is quantum mechanics. But of course few people find that appealing, much less understand it easily.

      Luckily though to grasp spirituality at best, we do not need science. Unless you're hanging on to the intellect...

      Then again, I think it is more helpful to study the effects of spirituality, culturally and socially. That teaches us more about spirituality in the world first. To meditate and delve into a void with science has meaning for nobody (harhar geddit?).

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