Printable View
Can anyone answer this question?
And I mean aside from occasional specific instances in religious dogma that says "non-_____ are wrong." For the most part, all religions preach compassion and kindness and loving other people. Where did all of THAT go?
It's upsetting to me...
I literally ask myself the same question everyday. :|
You can say that this applies to every other thing that a lot of people get involved with. Politics, sports, video games, and even countries. In all of them there are people that constantly compare, bash, or accept each others ideas. In all of these situations mentioned, the conflict gets the most attention. A perfect example of this would be Pluto.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
I never learned much about Pluto until the whole "it's not a planet" thing came about. Imagine turning on the news, and not hearing about murders, kidnappings, robbings, and what not. Now think about turning on the news, and hearing about some major riot breaking out, and it's only one city away. The world, and everything in it, is based on competition. This competition creates, shapes, and ultimately destroys us.
Most religious people don't really understand their religion and follow it through blind faith. When people present them with logical arguments they can not refute it, it upsets them, because its like saying their entire world view is wrong, and that can be troubling to people. That can be true of anything though, and people take their views really personally.
Religion tends to stir up peoples' sense of righteousness, and nothing is worse than that. It makes people feel that any act is justified and can be carried out with extreme hatred and impunity, and that it makes them right about everything.
Easy solution, people that have negative feelings about Religion here should just stay out of R/S. Or, create an additional sub-forum for just atheist. Let atheist play there and religious people play in the religion sub-forum and keep the two opposing parties away from each other by setting up some protocols. If people who are not atheist have questions for atheist, there are other forums for such things and vice-versa.
If I'm not mistaken, I don't think the OP simply meant theists vs atheists. I think he also meant disputes between various religions as well. On that note, it makes 'logic vs. faith' a moot point.
I've never actually seen this the 5 years I've been here and if so, it must be extremely subtle. It's probably nothing close to how atheist and theist bump heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Auron
Look to the middle east...
I don't think the thread is referring only to this message board or online, but real world scenarios as well.
Not to mention people like me who disagree with theists and atheists.
I think it comes down to fundamentalism. People can't apply rules to themselves so they make up for it by applying them on other people.
ah .. my apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
Auron and Darkmatters got what I meant. I don't see much on this forum other than Atheism vs. Theism. I mean in GENERAL... Palestine and Israel, Zionism vs. Non-Zionism, Hindus vs. Muslims (in India), Evangelicals vs. Mormons, the list can go on and on.
The righteousness that was mentioned not ONLY occurs in theists, but I'm seeing it more and more in atheists lately (not on DV but in general.) One of my friends, atheist, got into an argument with ANOTHER one of my friends, theist, "How can you SERIOUSLY believe that shit? You must be an absolute idiot!" That's a little self-righteous "I'm better than you." But then the theists usually snap back with their own self-righteousness "I'm better than you."
Ahhhh... I think we should all just be nice to eachother, and use hugs and smiles as a second currency.
That's what happens when your way of life is absolutely and universally true as ordained by an infallible, almighty god.
But that only explains fundamentalists, not the majority of people. You'd think the majority of people would be more understanding... (I, for one, completely understand why someone would be atheist. I also totally get why someone would want the sense of community provided by a place of worship.) It's just frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥Mark
But I guess it's human nature to feel like you're "right" and others are "wrong." (I find myself guilty of that often.)
It doesn't explain only fundamentalists. It explains anyone who's convinced that they know what their god(s) want(s) excepting the cases where they believe their god wants them to be accepting and considerate and recognize the limits of their intellect but this is unfortunately not always the case.
In my experience, the only people who DO think this way are fundamentalists (including fundamentalist atheists). Those are atheists that are atheist because THEY believe that you have to be a fundamentalist to be a part of a religion. Basically "atheists by dissociation/disbelief of fundamentalism."Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥Mark
I'm sure there are some people who aren't fundies that believe they have intimate knowledge of their God, but I haven't met any yet... Most are agnostics that practice a religion in my personal experience.
It's really not. Try asking some religious people about god and they'll probably have quite a bit to tell you. "god wants this, god said that, etc." It doesn't matter if such beliefs come from the literal word of the Bible or are somehow abstractly inferred.
For example, you'll hear a lot of "homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural. Clearly that's not the way humans were designed, so obviously it's against god's will." This reasoning is far from unique to fundamentalists. Even non-religious people make the same comments minus the part about god. The main difference there, though is that the one who believes in god is essentially speaking on behalf of god. It's a pretty powerful (and usually presumptuous) statement when you say something is against god's will. Now you're no longer talking about you and your personal beliefs, but rather something which is universally true of everyone. Something which not you have decided, but the ALL POWERFUL LORD OF THE UNIVERSE has decided. This kind of thinking is almost unavoidable by most religion's claims.
Well said, though I must confess that in the liberal area in which I live (hint: it starts with a "New" and ends with an "England"), I barely ever meet a non-fundamentalist who acts in any way different from an atheist on a practical level. So while the fundies will be all like, "Jesus said so it must be", the more open minded chaps on both the atheist and theist sides only butt heads when it's consented to and the people are in a genuine discussion or debate on the more theology-oriented theological issues, like "is there a god" or "which god is it" as opposed to the less theology-based theological issues, like "is abortion murder?"Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥Mark
As a whole, human beings are the most intelligent species alive but still have animal tendencies. Many aggrandize religion and fight about because it is so easy to do; few pursue the universal wisdom for its own sake.
On a smaller scale, do you think even a small group of human beings are guaranteed to get along? Religion is not the decider. The question is really asking for world peace.
Religions have used force and coercion to control people. People are pisssssssssssed.
Pretty much.
Most atheists are sick of the religious trying to impose their ideals on others. Beliefs, I don't think most atheists care about, but it's when they try to impose their ideals on others that we get annoyed. Like trying to get religion in to children's science classes.
Religions tend to get annoyed just because of the beliefs themselves from a differing religion being imposed on them.
The only way we will all get along is if we're all Pastafarians. So if you are sick of it, make sure you spread the word of His Noodly Appendage.
jk, but seriously it will only ever end if we're all atheists. Because it is the only definite thing regarding this. Religions are not definite, as you can see evidenced by the fact that religious people fight with people of the same religion. Or religions which are basically identical with different names (christians/catholics and muslims).
My beef is on a few levels. I'd say the biggest, most important level is that religious dogma should have absolutely NOTHING to do with politics, and we MUST fight it. In the US, the religious right has been trying to push their sickening agenda of "intelligent design" and "abstinence-only sex ed" and whatever other idiotic drivel there is for a long time, and it's really doing nothing more than harm our progress as a society. Some people would love to live in a theocracy like they have in certain locations today, and that's a frightening thought.
You could argue that, if you ignore that (which no sane person should), you're left with "religions preach compassion and caring about one another" - except compassion and caring are _NOT_ religious concepts at all! I cannot stand the cheapening of basic human virtues by saying "they had help from god" - to me, that's just as bad as when some charlatan cheapens the achievements of ancient civilizations (e.g. building the pyramids) by saying, "oh, they must have had help from aliens." No they didn't! Humans can be pretty awesome, give them some damn credit sometimes!
Finally, when you succumb to faith, of the "belief without evidence, and don't ask questions" kind, you close your eyes to the REAL beauty of the world. That's just your choice, and I have a problem respecting that. Like they say, I respect people's right to have whatever beliefs they want, but I don't respect some of the beliefs. There's no reason to respect woo-woo beliefs. :D
I don't have any fundamentalist friends except one, and she's very understanding and open to other's opinions anyways. I'm in an extremely... I guess "moderate" town, religiously open but politically red. It's an odd combination, but I rarely hear people who AREN'T fundamentalists saying that homosexuality is bad. Must be location more than belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥Mark
Some of my upset feelings come from Islamophobia. It took YEARS for a good friend to be convinced that Muslims are people, too, and his hatred for them wasn't even based on his religious beliefs, it was based on the media demonizing Muslims. The same thing happens often for Mormons, even if a Mormon has done NOTHING wrong, has donated to charity, volunteers every week, and has never tried to convert anyone, they are seen as "idiots" or "bigots" or "polygamists" (the most untrue of all stereotypes of Mormons) simply because they are members of a different church.
I completely understand why someone would dislike another religious group when they DO something that harms someone else, but when they choose to be a part of a religious group? That's not OK with me.
They do get along for the most part, in the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
Because of fear of difference, I suppose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVg2E...eature=related
:whistle: I'm just going to leave this here.
hehe I was going to post that. He didn't say "imagine.... no religions" for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantiq
I think the reason this won't happen in the predictable future is that of all the Christians I know (being one of them myself), no one is like this, I don't think you notice them because in personal experience I'm tempted to write something religious defending my beliefs but then realize that doing so will make people of my religion seem like bad people because of some error I make on my part. So we don't often say anything, but the people who are the (dare I say) stereotypical Christians do and (I'm a hypocrite in saying this, so I apologize) give Christianity a bad name.
My main point is, I don't think it's about religions, I think it's about human beings with certain personalities clashing over religion because they are the way they are, and the others don't often get a lot of publicity.
In my personal experience most Christians and atheist don't really care much, and most of the time they don't even know who each other are. Religious doesn't seem to play a huge role in their life, and so except on maybe Sunday it never comes up.
Great minds think alike. :cheeky:Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
most people dont understand religion. thats why they can keep saying anything about it. they havent seen the book of teaching (latest version). and still, most people who have, dont follow it. religion will become politics to them, and politics really sucks!
Because like-minded people have enough trouble trying to get along as it is...?
This,Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBuddha
and for some, what appears to be an obsession with difference. The ideals of being an your own person, making statements and standing up for what you believe in, etc.
At times combined with a general lack of patience/respect toward strangers in general. It's one thing to navigate such obstacles with your sister for example, or a friend. But what about when your opposition is coming from say, a faceless person you've never met? What if it doesn't appear as though "getting along" is high on their priority list?
Upon reflection, I'd like to say that these kind of differences are only obstacles if we allow them to be.
And it would be wonderful if I could say that all people are usually willing to treat others [likeminded or otherwise] with kindness and compassion the majority of the time.
In working with the public though, I've learned that a lot of people are too distracted by other things to even bother. Some have good days and bad days.
However, I suppose that's what makes it easier to notice the ones who try. So all hope is not lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
In then East and North and South too! Complainers complain, and Lovers Love. Perspectives are what you intend them to be.
Well thankfully the subject of religion doesn't often come up in daily conversation, except on for example a message board where it's specifically brought up as a thread topic.
What I mean is that - I may debate with someone like Ne-Yo about a particular subject because we're debating our viewpoints, but as long as we're not on that particular thread then we get along nicely, and I think we would get along well if we met face to face too, as long as neither of us pushes our own agenda on the other. And I suspect we wouldn't - this only happens in here because of the R/S forum which is made for that (or for discussing it anyway). Personally I hold no grudge toward him or anyone until and unless it comes to an argument - and I'm not the kind of person who will push an argument like that.
I guess what I"m trying to say is that, it might seem like some of us are at odds because we debate in R/S, but outside of it I think we could be firneds and never really make an issue of religious affiliations or lack thereof.
I guess this is one situation where being too protective to speak your mind could be beneficial? Although that may breed contempt and rage moreso than if you let your frustrations out...
I don't know if that was a response to what I wrote, but if it was - I'm not afraid to speak my mind or anything, it's just that normally the subject of religion doesn't come up. Also, even if it does, I don't always feel the need to assert my own beliefs. It isn't necessary to always be a warrior for your beliefs - sometimes it's better to believe and leave it alone and everybody can get along nicely. Pick your fights.
I'm similar. Except I will also get in to an argument with people, as I have here, and still later on I will be friends with the person. (I just woke up so that's badly worded lol)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
To me it doesn't matter what the person believes at all. For example I argued with my friend from school about religion for a good 30 minutes or so (he's christian), and it didn't
change my friendship with him at all. I knew he was religious already, so nothing changed. And the argument got pretty heated.
If, however, and actually he did say once that gay people should not be allowed to get married, then I get really pissed off. After another good half hour argument or more, I actually
almost convinced him that we was wrong, he was considering my opinion, and not the BS they'd told him in church. If he had stuck to that belief, and tried to push it on others, I would
have told him to get fucked.
Heh well yeah - if somebody's spouting off opinions that rub me the wrong way, then I'll get involved. I guess I don't know any religious people irl who are pushy like that though. I tend to get into it with an (ex) friend who is really racist and bigoted and sexist and just about every other ist there is. Hard to believe - we got along so well as kids, and stayed friends all these years, and grew up so completely opposite each other. These kind of arguments can tend to destroy friendships though.