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      Question to Christians

      Okay, when I die: I do not want to go to heaven nor hell.. what do?

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      You don't have to do anything because hell and heaven do not exist.
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      You can go to the shores of Acheron and chill out with the Uncommitted, following an illusion of your self-interest around while wasps chase you and plant maggots in your skin.

      Or if you were a very virtuous thinker or leader but never got baptized, you can hang out in Limbo with a bunch of crying unbaptized babies and old people talking about really boring shit for all of eternity.
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      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Don't die
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      Seeing as this thread is entitled "Question to Christians," I thought I should answer it because I am a Christian. I wonder why someone who is not a Christian would feel compelled to post a reply. Okay. Not wanting to go to hell, that's completely understandable. But as for the other half of your statement, I would suggest that perhaps you haven't really thought that out. I could be wrong. I'm curious. You didn't explain or elaborate. Maybe you have some misconstrued image of heaven where people dressed in white float around on clouds and listen to harps or just sing church songs for eternity at a family reunion that you'd rather skip out on. I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm being a smart-ass. I really would like to know where you're coming from. The Catechism tells us that "Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness." In heaven we will reach the culmination of our love. Those in hell will be left with their lack of love. That's what it's all about. It seems to me that if one believes in heaven, then necessarily that is where he or she wants to go. And based on your question, the idea of heaven as actually existing is present in your mind. Otherwise, you would not have created this thread. If on the other hand, you don't want to go to heaven because you think you don't deserve to be there, I respect that. If that is the case, don't be afraid or too proud to ask God for forgiveness and you can trust that He will give you enough time to be purified and prepared for heaven. You are not alone. More than 80 percent of the people in the world believe in a God of some sort. Over half of the people on Earth are monotheistic, thus believing in heaven. The others may call it something else, like nirvana for Hindus and Buddhists. Only 16 percent of the world's population is "nonreligious" (atheists, agnostics, etc.) A lot of these nonreligious folks don't believe in heaven because it cannot be verified by empirical evidence, yet most of them have no problem believing in other abstract notions that science can't seem to explain. Love, for instance. And if science won't let them believe in love either, well, that's awfully sad. All right. I hope I was helpful. Peace.
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      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
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      Either due to lack of evidence, or logical invalidity and absurdity.

      Also, science doesn't "let" people do anything. It's the person's willingness to adhere to some degree of honesty and integrity that does or doesn't "let" them believe in something.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness
      So I take this to mean I'll get to drink, smoke pot, have lots of sex, and play video games all the time?

      Also, we believe in love because it can be observed and experienced.

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      It was not my intention to engage in a debate here, but it's probably my fault for provoking the two of you. I think you'd agree that no matter what I say, it's not going to change your minds; and no matter what you say, it's not going to change my mind. I would like to get back to learning about lucid dreaming, but I will respond briefly since you guys took the time to read what I said before and to address me. When I mentioned the possibility of science not "letting" someone believe in love, I was just being ironic. I apologize if that was not clear. I was trying to be witty by treating science as if it were an entity in the way that God is for believers. I guess I failed. Also, Blueline, it sounds like you are implying that nonreligious people (that 16 percent of the world's population) are the only ones who are honest and have integrity. Is that really what you want to say? If so, how's the view from that pedestal? Furthermore, why are honesty and integrity even important to you? And from whence do these noble virtues arise? The Christian belief is that we are all created in the image of God. Yes, that means you, and you, and you. You are all supernatural marvels. You are endowed with the capacity to love and also to think abstractly and reflect. You value honesty and integrity because there is a moral code embedded in your very being. The conscience of a person is not a mere convention and it is not a social construct. It is something very real and it has a source. This source we call God. Supernova, I'm glad if you can observe and experience love. I think that's wonderful. But I want you to prove it to me. See, you cannot. Likewise, I cannot prove to you that I have observed and experienced God. But since ancient times, there has always been a tradition of mystics who receive their knowledge of God and of heaven experientially, rather than strictly through texts. If you have not been granted such insight, it is because you have not asked for it. You do not seek it and you do not want it. Truth is no harlot who throws her arms around he who does not desire her. Concerning the drinking, smoking, sex, and video games: those are all fun things, brother, but there is a lot more to life than that. May the force be with you.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Supernova View Post
      So I take this to mean I'll get to drink, smoke pot, have lots of sex, and play video games all the time?.
      I think this question warrants debate beyond ironic jokes about Heaven. In Paradise, can one participate in pleasurable vices? You'd think so if it's the place of ultimate happiness and these vices make you happy. Many Christians may consider Heaven like some sort of epic retirement home but I would not. If I do consider Heaven, I prefer to consider the idea that existence is separated into nodes and the details of a near death experience are a transitional mechanism between nodes. Though the body is attached to the node, the psyche will begin to magnetize in one direction or another, causing the karmic value to change and thrusting the psyche once the body collapses.

      Consider the psychological differences between pleasurable vices such as drinking, smoking, wasting time on videogames, sexing with people you don't love, etc... etc... and wholesome satisfaction such as exercising, cleaning, starting a family, owning a business, writing a novel or just putting in a hard day's work. The difference, psychologically, is that one doesn't come with much resistance. It's easy. The latter takes effort, you have to convince yourself it's worth it, you have to face your fear. You have to put in time to do something and you're not even sure if you'll be successful. Moreso, the latter is constructive, it builds something. It also allows you to learn as you do it so you can continue moving forward by increasing knowledge and awareness. The former requires no ability and causes no lasting positive change, it mostly just requires impatience and resistance to the moment. Video-games can promote learning, and many drugs can also promote learning. Experience is a powerful aid in life, but there comes a time when wrapping yourself up in these vices becomes a tool to hide from actions that would push you in the other direction, actions that cause resistance because of fear.

      According to near death experiences, Hell is like a combination between Rehab and an Insane Asylum in the sense that everybody there is running from something and creating a fake world to hide in. If this were so, it may be that many people prefer Hell. I know there's plenty of things I'm still running from.
      Last edited by Omnis Dei; 12-11-2011 at 05:52 AM.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      Also, Blueline, it sounds like you are implying that nonreligious people (that 16 percent of the world's population) are the only ones who are honest and have integrity. Is that really what you want to say? If so, how's the view from that pedestal?
      Well the view is wonderful, thank you for asking. But my point was this not that the only ones who are honest and have integrity are those who are nonreligious. Rather, saying science does or does not "let" someone do or believe something is wrong. It is the person's willingness to not make wild assumptions, or in other words to maintain a degree of integrity and honesty about what they know and what they support, that does or does not "let" them do or believe something. One can be a scientist while also be a bit of a wacko. Issac Newton comes to mind.

      Furthermore, why are honesty and integrity even important to you? And from whence do these noble virtues arise? The Christian belief is that we are all created in the image of God. Yes, that means you, and you, and you. You are all supernatural marvels. You are endowed with the capacity to love and also to think abstractly and reflect. You value honesty and integrity because there is a moral code embedded in your very being. The conscience of a person is not a mere convention and it is not a social construct. It is something very real and it has a source. This source we call God.
      Just for purposes of clarification, morality is objective because we were created by God?
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

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      Answer to OP: As per religion, your deeds decide where you end up. So if you're religious then it's like follow our code of conduct and let the lord judge you stuff.

      Off-topic: Not wanted to divert the topic but just because 16% believe in something else doesn't mean 84% are right. That's like 1 million people eat at mcdonalds, that means it must be right.lol I don't know which fallacy is this but whatever.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      Supernova, I'm glad if you can observe and experience love. I think that's wonderful. But I want you to prove it to me. See, you cannot. Likewise, I cannot prove to you that I have observed and experienced God. But since ancient times, there has always been a tradition of mystics who receive their knowledge of God and of heaven experientially, rather than strictly through texts. If you have not been granted such insight, it is because you have not asked for it. You do not seek it and you do not want it. Truth is no harlot who throws her arms around he who does not desire her. Concerning the drinking, smoking, sex, and video games: those are all fun things, brother, but there is a lot more to life than that. May the force be with you.
      How's the view from that pedestal?

      Come on now, you must have at least chuckled. At the joke.

      Really now, how much do you think you know about what I do and don't seek?
      Last edited by Supernova; 12-11-2011 at 05:22 AM.

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      Blue, for purposes of clarification, yes.

      Other guy, "Believe in nothing." That's what I know about you.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      Blue, for purposes of clarification, yes.
      Ok. Why? What about being created by God makes morality objective?
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      Blue, for purposes of clarification, yes.

      Other guy, "Believe in nothing." That's what I know about you.
      Yes, I do think people should be open-minded. Or do the words "believe in nothing" mean to you that I am a godless heathen with no morals? That text (which I did not write) is about a lot aside from belief in god.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      Ok. Why? What about being created by God makes morality objective?
      It's God's way or the highway.

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      I would like to apologize to the both of you. Seriously. I was drawing conclusions preemptively or too easily. I was kind of a jerk and I realize this now. I'm not the best spokesman for Christ, but I definitely think that God is the best explanation for why we innately value things like honesty, integrity, and courage. I think the conscience is something that transcends culture and time. It also transcends the struggle to exist, for heroes often put themselves in harm's way on behalf of others. Being human is all about making choices; choosing between right and wrong. I can't imagine this moral law coming about of its own accord. If anyone has a better explanation, I would like to hear it. Why do we value integrity and why bother with it?

      Also, Omnis Dei, you are on to something very important. You lost me at the part about the nodes, but the rest of it was brilliant. I don't think being lazy will be an option in heaven. I think there will be work of some sort for us to do. The work will be joyful and calm.

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      Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
      ...
      Its hard to imagine that nothing at all could be so exciting, could be so much fun.

      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
      Taosaur how do you know nothing happens there?

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      The Talking Heads rock. There's no disputing that. But I bet that not even Taosaur himself is taking Byrne's lyrics seriously.

      Hell is the place where nothing happens. Don't get it twisted.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      If anyone has a better explanation, I would like to hear it. Why do we value integrity and why bother with it?
      Empathy. Ever hear of the Golden Rule? "Treat others as you wish to be treated?"

      We value integrity because we understand the harm that can be done by being deceitful and dishonest. We know this because of how such negative traits affect us, ourselves. Not to say that there isn't some cosmic, alternative, 'supernatural' answer to it, but this would be the simplest and most logical.
      http://i.imgur.com/Ke7qCcF.jpg
      (Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      I would like to apologize to the both of you. Seriously. I was drawing conclusions preemptively or too easily. I was kind of a jerk and I realize this now. I'm not the best spokesman for Christ, but I definitely think that God is the best explanation for why we innately value things like honesty, integrity, and courage. I think the conscience is something that transcends culture and time. It also transcends the struggle to exist, for heroes often put themselves in harm's way on behalf of others. Being human is all about making choices; choosing between right and wrong. I can't imagine this moral law coming about of its own accord. If anyone has a better explanation, I would like to hear it. Why do we value integrity and why bother with it?
      If there is a God, he is not interested in virtue. This being either created or allows the existence of organisms which cause terrible suffering and death via disease, such as the smallpox bacterium, including to innocent children, on a mass scale.

      There are only two options; you can either stop believing in a kind God, or you can continue to live your life with large amounts of cognitive dissonance.

      Virtue comes from within ourselves (and I think that's a much more positive message than something outside of ourselves being the source of all good). We are rational beings and so we realise that we are all like, and thus to cause another person pain is wrong. We also have an innate sense of empathy from our ancestry; being kind to your neighbours helps to spread your genes, and so that gene became common. Psychopaths lack these genes and have no innate sense of empathy, and God doesn't seem to want to step in to replace it.

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      It just struck me that the idea of something "happening" is contingent upon time. Eternity is outside of time. Pretty obvious, but I just thought of that. I guess that's what David Byrne was making the joke about. Oh, now I get it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ebenezer View Post
      The Talking Heads rock. There's no disputing that. But I bet that not even Taosaur himself is taking Byrne's lyrics seriously.

      Hell is the place where nothing happens. Don't get it twisted.
      You're basically repeating the assertion you rejected earlier--that heaven as described sounds like hell.

      The truth about heaven(s) and hell(s) is the truth about what we are. It's terrifying and strange from a distance, but stop resisting and abide in it and it's both comfortable and amazing.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      I never said that heaven sounds like hell. I don't know where you got that from. What I did was quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness." And you sound very certain about your rather vague sentiment. I think that's poetic of you. Nonetheless, I will continue to trust in the authority of the church instead of in your authority. Obviously none of us here have actually died so we can't really know.
      In regards to the "cognitive dissonance," look, as soon as I say "There was a man two thousand years ago who was God walking around on Earth," I'm already defying logic. It's not like I don't realize this. If there were empirical evidence that God and heaven existed, faith would be a word with no meaning.
      Also, I don't think that integrity should be reduced to being just self-interest or even interest of the human species in the abstract.
      All right, folks, I came to this thread initially because it is plainly called "Question to Christians." The guy who started the thread has not come back at all and that was over two weeks ago. And so, I am respectfully bowing out. I will spare you any further efforts to liberate me from my charlatanism, noble though they may have been.

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