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    Thread: Omniscience or free will? -- Question for Christians

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      Omniscience or free will? -- Question for Christians

      I know many Christians believe they have free will, but they also believe their God is omniscient. Omniscience means he knows everything--past, present and future.

      So, there lies a problem. If he knows everything from now until the end, how can you believe there's free will then? If God knows you're going to do X can you do Y instead? No, not if he's truly omniscient. If you truly believe God is omniscient then you can not believe you have free will. They contradict one another.

      That contradiction brings up the problem that either God isn't omniscient or you don't have free will.

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      Just attach a Supernatural Form 777. Problem solved

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      Quote Originally Posted by Matrix: Reloaded
      The Oracle: Do you see her die?
      Neo: No.
      The Oracle: You have the sight now, Neo. You are looking at the world without time.
      Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her?
      The Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
      Neo: Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
      The Oracle: No, you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it.
      Neo: No. I can't do that. I won't.
      The Oracle: Well, you have to.
      Neo: Why?
      The Oracle: Because you're the One.
      If a 'Creator' can live outside of Space and Time, then the fact that he knows what you're going to do really doesn't have any bearing on your free will. When you make a decision, your decision was already determined, because it is the only possible outcome that could have come from the events that led up to that moment. Even though you are consciously making the decision, right then and there, the truth is that you really have no choice, but to make the decision that you are making, because it is who you are. Even if you try to trick yourself and say "Well, I would normally do this, but now I'm going to do that," that attempt at self-deception is simply a manifestation of the infinite number of variables that unequivocally caused you to make such a deviant decision at the time. It is still 'your choice' to do so, but any being (omniscient or not), with the ability to see outside of Space and Time, can very easily know what you're going to do in the (read as: your) future, because they are simply looking at a proverbial snapshot of what has happened, is happening, and will happen, all at once.

      I'm agnostic, btw. This is completely from a non-religious stand-point.
      Last edited by Oneironaut Zero; 12-31-2011 at 10:48 AM.
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      I don't see why knowing what will happen should mean no one has free will. Someone might know what you're going to choose with your free will. Knowing the future doesn't imply determinism.

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      I guess I could see a complete lack of free will if broken down to a quantum level. In the end I don't control the polarity of atom clusters, only perhaps the interaction of many of those atom clusters. But I don't have influence over the deepest parts of them.

      No matter the case, I don't think this is a big problem for us, and that we can continue to prosper and grow the same nevertheless.

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      I think the bigger problem is:

      1) Knows what will happen

      2) Loves us and wants the best for us

      --> therefore, god is evil if anyone ends up in hell.

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      Schoepenhauer: Man is free to do as he wills, but not to will as he wills.

      Compatibilists: winning since 300BC.
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      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      I know many Christians believe they have free will, but they also believe their God is omniscient. Omniscience means he knows everything--past, present and future.

      So, there lies a problem. If he knows everything from now until the end, how can you believe there's free will then? If God knows you're going to do X can you do Y instead? No, not if he's truly omniscient. If you truly believe God is omniscient then you can not believe you have free will. They contradict one another.

      That contradiction brings up the problem that either God isn't omniscient or you don't have free will.
      Unfortunately this goes beyond understanding of Christian Literature so I'm forced to advocate my own point of view. I would also be interested to see how an actual Christian responds, though. (So far it seems the responses have been from every point of view except Theistic).

      But the way I've heard Source described (let's call this the Holy Ghost to keep Christians in the loop), it is omniscient. The Father, however, is not omniscient. The Father is no more powerful than any other sort of King, he is a thought-form given power through worship and belief. One POV claims that he emerged from our imagination, another claims he was the first being to drop in to Universe Bound By Desire since the last Great Cleansing and that there's always one guy to drop in first and this guy almost always think they created everything to follow because they desired company so bad. The point is I believe one of those two. I'm not sure which one but to have this discussion with me one has to accept that any sort of reference to an Omniscient God is in respect to the Holy Ghost, not to The Father.

      That being said, the Holy Ghost is not bound by desire and therefore its omniscience means nothing and does not contradict our free will in anyway. From this standpoint, free will comes in two layers. In the first layer it exists as an abstract concept, beneficial for discussions in behavior. You can lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink. That phrase should really go something like "You can't bring a horse to water, only lead it." People reject force. There's something instinctive in every human psyche that makes it resist any action it does not cause of its own volition. This need to choose is incredibly important, not just to humans but to everything. Imagine a cat walking toward its bowl of food, and suddenly you push it along to make it go faster. That cat will resist, even though you're pushing it right to the object it desires.

      This applies metaphysically as well. God cannot save anyone. People cannot just have that sort of energy pour into them, they respond in panic. To open the God Connection, one must choose to allow it in. Things like free will and the devil are not metaphors for the laws of the universe, they are qualities of our evolution described in a format that people can understand. God Gave us free will because it makes a species more sustainable if they have an intrinsic need to feel as though they make all their own decisions.

      Even if these decisions are really just reactions happening on a cellular level, the action must emerge from within the organism, not without. And there is no Omniscient God bound by desire. Desire filters awareness.
      Last edited by Omnis Dei; 12-31-2011 at 08:21 PM.

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      Omniscience means knowing what you will do, not choosing what you will do. Historians (assuming for the sake of argument that history is entirely accurate) know what people in the past chose to do, but that doesn't mean that said people didn't have a choice, simply that we know which choice they made. Given little about God is truly understood, it's entirely possible and highly probable that He is totally beyond the realm of human comprehension. As far as we know, God is not affected by what we call time or can bypass it via mechanisms unbeknownst to us. If we assume this is true, God could effectively know all the decisions we have ever made and will make in our subjective "future". Thus, He is omniscient and we maintain free will.

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      There is no contradiction. Humans have free will to make choices, but their decision-making is based on rule-sets, and you can predict how someone will behave without even being omniscient.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      Unfortunately this goes beyond understanding of Christian Literature so I'm forced to advocate my own point of view. I would also be interested to see how an actual Christian responds, though. (So far it seems the responses have been from every point of view except Theistic).

      But the way I've heard Source described (let's call this the Holy Ghost to keep Christians in the loop), it is omniscient. The Father, however, is not omniscient. The Father is no more powerful than any other sort of King, he is a thought-form given power through worship and belief. One POV claims that he emerged from our imagination, another claims he was the first being to drop in to Universe Bound By Desire since the last Great Cleansing and that there's always one guy to drop in first and this guy almost always think they created everything to follow because they desired company so bad. The point is I believe one of those two. I'm not sure which one but to have this discussion with me one has to accept that any sort of reference to an Omniscient God is in respect to the Holy Ghost, not to The Father.
      The Father is God. God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. It's a wide common believe that the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son are all the same being, just different forms. They all three have the same traits as the other.

      God doesn't need worship or belief to obtain power, he's supposed to be omnipotent. That means he's already all-powerful. He's also supposed to be perfect which would also negate the need for worship and belief to get power.

      God wouldn't have a desire for company if he were truly perfect. A being that is perfect will never have the need to create anything and would never have a need to create something to have power because if he had to do either of those he wouldn't be perfect.

      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      That being said, the Holy Ghost is not bound by desire and therefore its omniscience means nothing and does not contradict our free will in anyway. From this standpoint, free will comes in two layers. In the first layer it exists as an abstract concept, beneficial for discussions in behavior. You can lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink. That phrase should really go something like "You can't bring a horse to water, only lead it." People reject force. There's something instinctive in every human psyche that makes it resist any action it does not cause of its own volition. This need to choose is incredibly important, not just to humans but to everything. Imagine a cat walking toward its bowl of food, and suddenly you push it along to make it go faster. That cat will resist, even though you're pushing it right to the object it desires.

      This applies metaphysically as well. God cannot save anyone. People cannot just have that sort of energy pour into them, they respond in panic. To open the God Connection, one must choose to allow it in. Things like free will and the devil are not metaphors for the laws of the universe, they are qualities of our evolution described in a format that people can understand. God Gave us free will because it makes a species more sustainable if they have an intrinsic need to feel as though they make all their own decisions.

      Even if these decisions are really just reactions happening on a cellular level, the action must emerge from within the organism, not without. And there is no Omniscient God bound by desire. Desire filters awareness.
      It seems to me being that God is omniscient he knew Adam would eat the forbidden fruit before he even created him as he has to know the past, present and future. Omniscience is believed by the majority of Christians that God knows everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen. So, that being said, when God decided to create Adam and Eve he already knew they'd betray his word and Adam would eat the forbidden fruit thereby taking away the freewill for Adam to choose. He was predestined to go against God's word. Adam didn't have a choice in the matter being that he was already destined to eat the fruit.

      Even the Bible supports predeterminism which denies free will:

      Ephesians 1:3-6
      Ephesians 2:4-10
      Romans 8:28-30
      Romans 9:10-15
      Romans 9:16-19
      2 Timothy 1:9
      Acts 13:48
      2 Thessalonians 2:13
      Revelations 13:8
      Ecclesiastes 7:13
      2 Thessalonians 2:9-13

      They show that people have no choice in a lot of matters because God has created them to be a certain way. Just look at Revelations 13:8, it clearly states God has created one group of people that will conform with Jesus and a group that will not. Therefore they have no free will to choose. They're predestined for Hell. What omnibenevolent being creates people predestined for Hell?
      Last edited by nitsuJ; 01-01-2012 at 04:52 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      I know many Christians believe they have free will, but they also believe their God is omniscient. Omniscience means he knows everything--past, present and future.

      So, there lies a problem. If he knows everything from now until the end, how can you believe there's free will then? If God knows you're going to do X can you do Y instead? No, not if he's truly omniscient. If you truly believe God is omniscient then you can not believe you have free will. They contradict one another.

      That contradiction brings up the problem that either God isn't omniscient or you don't have free will.
      Actually, the contradiction isn't omniscience or free will - but whether or not God is separate from creation.

      If God is an old man sitting in the sky - separate from you - how could you have free will? This being, far far away, created you, knowing you would sin before even creating you, knowing you would be punished for the sin, still went ahead knowing all of this and created you so you can be punished!!! Its a headache!

      How could that ever be free will?

      But mystics look at God's omniscience with a personal and enlightening clarity "I only know that which I experience. I can only know God if I experience God". (Mystics also conclude that it is possible to experience God)

      Mystics understand that knowingness is an active state of awareness, not abstract knowledge found in a text book. Without this fundamental philosophy that "to know is to experience" we look at Gods omniscience, at Gods all-knowingness as distant and as far removed as reading about dolphins and claiming we know dolphin.

      There is only one way to know what it means to be a dolphin and that is to be a dolphin!!!!

      If God knows everything, well then by Gods will God must be everything and everyone!!

      Now look at what the mystics have done. Where as before omniscience and free will seemed at odds with each other, now the two have united as one. For the mystics, your free will is Gods will to be you and also fulfills Gods omniscience of you.

      Which brings me to my last point, free will is not about the free will do do what ever you want to do, but the freedom to be you. This is why not expressing ourselves leads to emotional problems versus a red stoplight stopping your car. As the mystics say, choose to be! Seriously, they think its divine.

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      nituJ, I'm still not sure how you're coming to the conclusion that God knowing what you will do is tantamount to predestination. Predestination, in Christianity, is mostly specific to Calvinism. You also seem to be leaving something out in this argument:
      Quote Originally Posted by nituJ
      It seems to me being that God is omniscient he knew Adam would eat the forbidden fruit before he even created him as he has to know the past, present and future. Omniscience is believed by the majority of Christians that God knows everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen. So, that being said, when God decided to create Adam and Eve he already knew they'd betray his word and Adam would eat the forbidden fruit thereby taking away the freewill for Adam to choose. He was predestined to go against God's word. Adam didn't have a choice in the matter being that he was already destined to eat the fruit.
      You seem to be assuming that God is creating Adam with the intention of making Adam sinful or to eat the forbidden fruit. Just because God knows that a person he creates will be sinful or not when they are created, does not mean he chose that path for them, they did. He simply knows. You seem to be arguing more whether God is benevolent, but somehow coming to the conclusion that we have no free will.

      Let me ask you this: if your beef is with how God knew that the person he was going to create would be sinful before he created him (assuming God can see his own future and not just that of which he created) and still be considered benevolent, what would you say to him giving you the gift of life at all? For some, life sucks, yes, but would you rather have existed or never existed at all? I guess the answer to that question depends a lot on you, but personally, though I'm atheist, if I turn out to be wrong, I would be pretty happy (despite the shitty times in my life) that God gave me a chance to live at all.

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      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      You seem to be assuming that God is creating Adam with the intention of making Adam sinful or to eat the forbidden fruit.
      Of course I'm saying he created Adam with the intention of making him sin. God already knew before he ever made Adam that he'd eat the fruit. If God goes ahead and creates him then he's making it inevitable for Adam to eat the fruit, Adam can't choose to not eat the fruit. He's destined to eat the fruit.

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      Just because God knows that a person he creates will be sinful or not when they are created, does not mean he chose that path for them, they did. He simply knows. You seem to be arguing more whether God is benevolent, but somehow coming to the conclusion that we have no free will.
      According to Christianity all of us Atheists will go to Hell and by you saying that we choose our path implies to me you believe we choose to go to Hell since that's the consequence of our lack of belief.

      This reminds me of an episode of the Atheist Experience where a caller called in and stated Atheists choose to go to Hell which got shot down by Jeff Dee (I think it was) who said he chooses not to go to Hell. Then the caller kept trying to argue that yes, he indeed does choose to go to Hell. Obviously no one would choose to go to Hell, but according to your statement that this is the path we choose we do in fact choose to go there.

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      Let me ask you this: if your beef is with how God knew that the person he was going to create would be sinful before he created him (assuming God can see his own future and not just that of which he created) and still be considered benevolent, what would you say to him giving you the gift of life at all? For some, life sucks, yes, but would you rather have existed or never existed at all? I guess the answer to that question depends a lot on you, but personally, though I'm atheist, if I turn out to be wrong, I would be pretty happy (despite the shitty times in my life) that God gave me a chance to live at all.
      I like my life, to be honest with you. I would have rather existed, but thankfully for me I lack belief in any deity and I feel I can choose as I want. I see omniscience as a logical contradiction as the other traits--omnipotence and omnipresence--of God.

      The Bible supports the claim by saying God destines people for Heaven or Hell before he creates the person. To me, that isn't giving free will. In Christianity, if free will exists, can you say it's logical to believe a person chooses to be eternally tortured knowing that someone like me realizes if I am wrong I will be burning in Hell? I would hope your answer would be no.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero View Post
      If a 'Creator' can live outside of Space and Time, then the fact that he knows what you're going to do really doesn't have any bearing on your free will. When you make a decision, your decision was already determined, because it is the only possible outcome that could have come from the events that led up to that moment. Even though you are consciously making the decision, right then and there, the truth is that you really have no choice, but to make the decision that you are making, because it is who you are. Even if you try to trick yourself and say "Well, I would normally do this, but now I'm going to do that," that attempt at self-deception is simply a manifestation of the infinite number of variables that unequivocally caused you to make such a deviant decision at the time. It is still 'your choice' to do so, but any being (omniscient or not), with the ability to see outside of Space and Time, can very easily know what you're going to do in the (read as: your) future, because they are simply looking at a proverbial snapshot of what has happened, is happening, and will happen, all at once.

      I'm agnostic, btw. This is completely from a non-religious stand-point.


      Thank you. Also, looks like the second Matrix had a little more of the philosophical spirit than I thought.

      If you look at time in the context of it being a dimension rather than linear and one-directional as we see it, it makes sense, though.
      Last edited by Supernova; 01-02-2012 at 02:25 AM.
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      I guess I'll throw in my two cents in from a Christian perspective but I'm extremely impressed by the replies I've seen here, so there is not much for me to add.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      It's a wide common believe that the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son are all the same being, just different forms. They all three have the same traits as the other.
      This is not true. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate and distinct entities.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      God doesn't need worship or belief to obtain power, he's supposed to be omnipotent. That means he's already all-powerful. He's also supposed to be perfect which would also negate the need for worship and belief to get power.
      God doesn't need our worship. Nowhere in the scriptures has it ever been implied that God needs anything. Now on the other hand God commands or request our worship because it's beneficial to us. Anything else humans worship doesn't appear to benefit us and it only brings more harm to us than good.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      This is not true. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate and distinct entities.
      They're all the same though, according to Christianity. Even the Bible says they're all "one". All three of them together make up what is known as "God".

      1 John 5:7
      King James Version (KJV)
      "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      God doesn't need our worship. Nowhere in the scriptures has it ever been implied that God needs anything. Now on the other hand God commands or request our worship because it's beneficial to us. Anything else humans worship doesn't appear to benefit us and it only brings more harm to us than good.
      Many people believe he does need our worship in order for him to have power, this includes Christians. When they claim that, they're contradicting their God.

      How does anything else humans worship appear to not benefit people and bring them more harm than good? Over one billion Muslims would disagree with that saying, "Anything else worshiped besides Allah causes more harm than good." Worship and prayer only brings "good" because the people that partake in it see it as that.

      It's like the scenario where a boy grows up in a gang infested town:

      1. Boy goes out and gets shot at but all of the bullets miss. God is good by not letting him get hit.

      2. Boy goes out and gets shot at but only a few bullets hit leaving him with non-life threatening injuries. God is good for not letting the damage be worse or even possibly fatal.

      3. Boy goes out and gets shot but suffers from extensive damage which leaves him in a mental state where he can't take care of himself and needs a permanent caretaker. God is good for not letting him die.

      4. Boy goes out and gets shot and suffers from fatal injuries and dies. God is good for not letting him suffer.

      No matter the outcome of anything, God is going to be "good" for whatever happens.
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      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      They're all the same though, according to Christianity. Even the Bible says they're all "one". All three of them together make up what is known as "God".

      1 John 5:7
      King James Version (KJV)
      "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
      The Textus Receptus pertaining to 1 John 5:7 - 8 is a grammatical anomaly. The reason I say this is because the Greek word describing "One" in this particular passage is presented in the neuter form hen, which doesn't mean one GOD. This is even more evident when referencing the word GOD in the New Testament, GOD is always associated in the masculine form and gramatically adjectives (such as "one") associated with it must also present itself within a masculine form. (i.e, heis - masculine form.)

      John demonstrates (Majority Text), John 5:6 "This-One He-is the-One having-come through water and Blood, Jesus Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the Blood. 5:7 "And the Spirit it-is the-thing bearing-witness, because the Spirit it-is the truth." 5:8 "Because THREE they-are THE-ONES BEARING-WITNESS, the Spirit and the water and the Blood, and THE THREE-ONES for the ONE-THING they-are." 5:9 "If THE WITNESS OF-THE MEN we-accept, the witness of-the God greater it-is, because this it-is the witness of-the God which He-has-born-witness regarding the Son of-Him.”

      John comparatively (this is like that) equates “the Spirit and the water and the Blood” in verse 5:8, which comprise “the witness of the God / the witness of the God which He has born witness regarding the Son of Him” in verse 5:9, to “the ones bearing witness / the three ones” in verse 5:8, who comprise the “men” in the phrase “the witness of the men” in verse 5:9, hence the masculine gender in verse 5:8.

      When the Greek neuter "One" (hen) is applied to persons, it means "ONE-THING". In other words they have become united in something such as "objective, purpose, plan" "will," etc. That is why Jesus prays to the Father. That is why Jesus states that he and the Almighty Father are one (but not one in the same) They are essentially in accordance with one another sharing identical purposes, plans, objectives, or whatever the case may be.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Many people believe he does need our worship in order for him to have power, this includes Christians. When they claim that, they're contradicting their God.
      Well you're not talking to many people right now. Your discussing this with me and this doesn't make sense and I've already demonstrated why it doesn't make sense.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      How does anything else humans worship appear to not benefit people and bring them more harm than good?
      One good example here would be cigarettes. They cause all sorts of problems and they provide absolutely no benefit to us whatsoever.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Over one billion Muslims would disagree with that saying, "Anything else worshiped besides Allah causes more harm than good." Worship and prayer only brings "good" because the people that partake in it see it as that.
      Well everyone's not going to agree with me, which makes us the unique people we are. In that same sense as a Christian I follow the one true God Yahweh and I cannot agree with the following of a pagen deity.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      No matter the outcome of anything, God is going to be "good" for whatever happens.
      Well of course, God surely isn't evil. God is good.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      The Textus Receptus pertaining to 1 John 5:7 - 8 is a grammatical anomaly. The reason I say this is because the Greek word describing "One" in this particular passage is presented in the neuter form hen, which doesn't mean one GOD. This is even more evident when referencing the word GOD in the New Testament, GOD is always associated in the masculine form and gramatically adjectives (such as "one") associated with it must also present itself within a masculine form. (i.e, heis - masculine form.)

      John demonstrates (Majority Text), John 5:6 "This-One He-is the-One having-come through water and Blood, Jesus Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the Blood. 5:7 "And the Spirit it-is the-thing bearing-witness, because the Spirit it-is the truth." 5:8 "Because THREE they-are THE-ONES BEARING-WITNESS, the Spirit and the water and the Blood, and THE THREE-ONES for the ONE-THING they-are." 5:9 "If THE WITNESS OF-THE MEN we-accept, the witness of-the God greater it-is, because this it-is the witness of-the God which He-has-born-witness regarding the Son of-Him.”

      John comparatively (this is like that) equates “the Spirit and the water and the Blood” in verse 5:8, which comprise “the witness of the God / the witness of the God which He has born witness regarding the Son of Him” in verse 5:9, to “the ones bearing witness / the three ones” in verse 5:8, who comprise the “men” in the phrase “the witness of the men” in verse 5:9, hence the masculine gender in verse 5:8.

      When the Greek neuter "One" (hen) is applied to persons, it means "ONE-THING". In other words they have become united in something such as "objective, purpose, plan" "will," etc. That is why Jesus prays to the Father. That is why Jesus states that he and the Almighty Father are one (but not one in the same) They are essentially in accordance with one another sharing identical purposes, plans, objectives, or whatever the case may be.
      How can one God be three persons?
      Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Well you're not talking to many people right now. Your discussing this with me and this doesn't make sense and I've already demonstrated why it doesn't make sense.
      Well, if you see why that problem makes no sense to you; why don't the other problems make no sense to you?


      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      One good example here would be cigarettes. They cause all sorts of problems and they provide absolutely no benefit to us whatsoever.
      I'm guessing you're speaking of addiction. How many people do you know that are addicted to smoking claim to have deep respect for the cigarettes they smoke? I believe if you asked them, "Do you want to stop smoking?" They would say, "Yes." They don't worship cigarettes, they're addicted to them.

      Also, we were speaking of worshiping deities. A cigarette isn't a deity.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Well everyone's not going to agree with me, which makes us the unique people we are. In that same sense as a Christian I follow the one true God Yahweh and I cannot agree with the following of a pagen deity.
      Yes, that's fine, but I was showing that your claim of, "Anything else humans worship doesn't appear to benefit us and it only brings more harm to us than good," is just an opinion as Muslims would claim the worship of Allah is beneficial and anything worshiped besides him is more harmful than good.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Well of course, God surely isn't evil. God is good.
      Joshua 6:21-24

      If he is truly good then why would he condone the murder of the innocent men, women and children in that town? He also murdered livestock for crying out loud.

      That's just one part that shows God isn't purely good.
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      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      If those relations are the real claims, then this is brilliant.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Well everyone's not going to agree with me, which makes us the unique people we are. In that same sense as a Christian I follow the one true God Yahweh and I cannot agree with the following of a pagen deity.
      Do you have some main reason for believing in the Christian God but not the others?

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      I see you posted a link from Christainanswers.net. I don't agree with a lot of things they stand by. For one, I'm an Old Earth Creationist I stand by the belief that the Earth is (4.5Gya), whereas, they hold the belief that the Earth is roughly 20,000 years old. I also believe in biological evolution and they dismiss things like that. So yea my views are completely different in many areas than theirs. You may want to read these.

      The Nicene Creed and the Trinity
      Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Unitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Well, if you see why that problem makes no sense to you; why don't the other problems make no sense to you?
      What other problems?

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      I'm guessing you're speaking of addiction.
      Then you're guessing wrong. the Origin of cigarettes.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Also, we were speaking of worshiping deities. A cigarette isn't a deity.
      My response above.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Yes, that's fine, but I was showing that your claim of, "Anything else humans worship doesn't appear to benefit us and it only brings more harm to us than good," is just an opinion as Muslims would claim the worship of Allah is beneficial and anything worshiped besides him is more harmful than good.
      And I just demonstrated that it wasn't an opinion, referencing the worshiping of cigarettes.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Joshua 6:21-24

      If he is truly good then why would he condone the murder of the innocent men, women and children in that town? He also murdered livestock for crying out loud.

      That's just one part that shows God isn't purely good.
      If I had a nickle for every-time I've seen an Atheist quote this passage I'd be a rich man. Before I get into this, understand something, God is, necessarily, sovereign. Sovereignty implies that God is in absolute control of the universe. This is rightfully apparent as in the case that God has created all living things and has sustained them by His grace. Thus, all things owe each second of their lives to Him. We don’t deserve anything, only God deserves anything–which is our adoration, thanksgiving, praise and worship.

      Now let's examine the charge you've imposed. God is evil for allowing and endorsing the complete destruction of Jericho, which includes women, children, and animals. Now in my observation I don't believe any women or children were present or executed. I say this because all the battles were with military outposts and soldiers, where women and children would not have been present. The fact of the matter exist within these narratives, that there is no record whatsoever that women or children were actually killed by anyone. God’s command to Israel was not primarily to exterminate the Canaanites but to drive them out of the land. It was the land that was (and remains today!) paramount in the minds of these Ancient Near Eastern peoples. The Canaanite tribal kingdoms which occupied the land were to be destroyed as nation states, not as individuals. The judgment of God upon these tribal groups, which had become so incredibly debauched by that time, is that they were being divested of their land. Canaan was being given over to Israel, whom God had now brought out of Egypt. If the Canaanite tribes, seeing the armies of Israel, had simply chosen to flee, no one would have been killed at all. There was no command to pursue and hunt down the Canaanite peoples.

      Therefore it is completely misleading to characterize God’s command to Israel as a command of pure evil. Rather it was first and foremost a command to drive the tribes out of the land and to occupy it. Only those who remained behind were to be utterly exterminated. There may have been no non-combatants killed at all. As it should be, considering there is no record of the killing of women and children, as I believe didn't occur. Such scenes may have never taken place, since it was the soldiers who remained to fight. It is also stands to note as to why there were plenty of Canaanite people around after the conquest of the land, as the biblical record attests.

      Some other factors to consider regarding this passage from Geisler and Howe
      Quote Originally Posted by The book of Biblical difficulties
      1) The Canaanites were far from innocent. The Canaanites abhorrent immorality is described in Leviticus 18, which includes descriptions of such Canaanite practices as child sacrifice (see Leviticus 18:21, 24, 25, and 26). These people were not walking around minding their own business. They were a dangerous, defiled nation (Geisler, 137).

      2) God had given Palestine more than 400 years to repent, starting with the promise to Abraham in Genesis 15:16. The people of the land, however, had not repented (137).

      3) In regards to killing everyone, including women and children, the fact of the matter is that they were part of a people whose depravity was such that anyone who came in contact with it was polluted (see Leviticus 18 once more). Geisler and Howe further put forward the controversial view that children who die before the age of accountability go to heaven (they cite 2 Samuel 12:23 for this) and so God was being merciful by bringing them to Him rather than having them condemned for eternity (138–I am not endorsing the latter part of this argument, but I think it was worth repeating here).

      4) God’s sovereignty means that He who has created life may also take it (138).

      5) The threat of such a vile, violent, and corrupt people meant they must be eradicated so as not to lead astray God’s chosen people, who had already shown themselves susceptible to such apostasy (138).
      I have a question for you.

      Let's just assume for a moment that the classical God of Abraham does indeed exist (i.e., omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent/necessary/sovereign/etc.). If this God does indeed exists and one of God's essence implies sovereignty (ultimate authority in the universe) who is high enough to pass judgement on such an entity?



      Quote Originally Posted by Dianeva View Post
      Do you have some main reason for believing in the Christian God but not the others?
      Well, I wasn't always a Christian and wasn't raised as one but when I became a young adult I had a sort-of-an-awakening I would call it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      I see you posted a link from Christainanswers.net. I don't agree with a lot of things they stand by. For one, I'm an Old Earth Creationist I stand by the belief that the Earth is (4.5Gya), whereas, they hold the belief that the Earth is roughly 20,000 years old. I also believe in biological evolution and they dismiss things like that. So yea my views are completely different in many areas than theirs. You may want to read these.

      The Nicene Creed and the Trinity
      Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Unitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Well, I don't believe we're going to settle with this as there's evidence for both and seems to be a matter of opinion although the trinity is a wide belief.

      One of the links talks about how there's a lack of speaking about the Trinity in the Bible as proof it isn't true. If that's why you don't believe it I'm going to have to ask you these things:

      Do you believe the crucifixion of Jesus was a gruesome ordeal?
      Do you believe Jesus was resurrected?
      Do you believe there will be a Rapture?
      Do you think Satan is a bad guy?
      Do you believe when people die they either go to Heaven or Hell?



      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      What other problems?
      The fact that God is supposedly perfect yet is able to create imperfect things. The fact that his omnipotence is a logical contradiction.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Then you're guessing wrong. the Origin of cigarettes.

      My response above.
      I'm sorry, but now you're implying that Christians that smoke are willingly and knowingly worshiping a sun-god or Baal? Seems pretty foolish to me. I'm pretty sure my mother would disagree with you. So, no, they're not worshiping Gods by smoking. That's like saying when a person bows their head they're praying. People smoke because they're addicted to the nicotine in the cigarette, not because they want to worship a sun-god or Baal.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      And I just demonstrated that it wasn't an opinion, referencing the worshiping of cigarettes.
      Yes, but obviously Christians don't worship a sun-god or Baal, so the claim is still wrong.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      If I had a nickle for every-time I've seen an Atheist quote this passage I'd be a rich man. Before I get into this, understand something, God is, necessarily, sovereign. Sovereignty implies that God is in absolute control of the universe. This is rightfully apparent as in the case that God has created all living things and has sustained them by His grace. Thus, all things owe each second of their lives to Him. We don’t deserve anything, only God deserves anything–which is our adoration, thanksgiving, praise and worship.
      Why does he deserve it? Why does a perfect being feel he deserves something?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Now let's examine the charge you've imposed. God is evil for allowing and endorsing the complete destruction of Jericho, which includes women, children, and animals. Now in my observation I don't believe any women or children were present or executed. I say this because all the battles were with military outposts and soldiers, where women and children would not have been present.
      Yet the Bible states women and children were murdered. Does the Bible contain yet another lie?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      The fact of the matter exist within these narratives, that there is no record whatsoever that women or children were actually killed by anyone.
      There's also no record Jesus was ever born besides the Bible saying so, are you going to lack belief in that now?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      God’s command to Israel was not primarily to exterminate the Canaanites but to drive them out of the land. It was the land that was (and remains today!) paramount in the minds of these Ancient Near Eastern peoples. The Canaanite tribal kingdoms which occupied the land were to be destroyed as nation states, not as individuals. The judgment of God upon these tribal groups, which had become so incredibly debauched by that time, is that they were being divested of their land. Canaan was being given over to Israel, whom God had now brought out of Egypt. If the Canaanite tribes, seeing the armies of Israel, had simply chosen to flee, no one would have been killed at all. There was no command to pursue and hunt down the Canaanite peoples.

      Therefore it is completely misleading to characterize God’s command to Israel as a command of pure evil. Rather it was first and foremost a command to drive the tribes out of the land and to occupy it. Only those who remained behind were to be utterly exterminated. There may have been no non-combatants killed at all. As it should be, considering there is no record of the killing of women and children, as I believe didn't occur. Such scenes may have never taken place, since it was the soldiers who remained to fight. It is also stands to note as to why there were plenty of Canaanite people around after the conquest of the land, as the biblical record attests.

      Some other factors to consider regarding this passage from Geisler and Howe
      I'm sorry, but to me, killing innocent men, women and children is evil.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      I have a question for you.

      Let's just assume for a moment that the classical God of Abraham does indeed exist (i.e., omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent/necessary/sovereign/etc.). If this God does indeed exists and one of God's essence implies sovereignty (ultimate authority in the universe) who is high enough to pass judgement on such an entity?
      I can't logically assume that as those traits are logical contradictions, but I feel anyone can judge anyone by saying they're evil when they kill innocent men, women or children. It's also evil to create a person who has no chance of getting into Heaven.

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      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      Well, I don't believe we're going to settle with this as there's evidence for both and seems to be a matter of opinion although the trinity is a wide belief.
      If you read the Bible use a little common sense and do a little research you will see there isn't evidence for both, only one.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      One of the links talks about how there's a lack of speaking about the Trinity in the Bible as proof it isn't true. If that's why you don't believe it I'm going to have to ask you these things:
      That's not why I don't believe in it. I've already gave you the reason why I do not support the idea of 3 entities comprised as 1 Godhead. However I will answer the following questions.

      Do you believe the crucifixion of Jesus was a gruesome ordeal? Yes
      Do you believe Jesus was resurrected? Yes
      Do you believe there will be a Rapture? I believe in a second coming and a new Kingdom place here on Earth.
      Do you think Satan is a bad guy? I believe Satan is the master of deception. If this constitutes as someone being bad then yes.
      Do you believe when people die they either go to Heaven or Hell? Most will go to neither only a select few will gain access to Heaven.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      The fact that God is supposedly perfect yet is able to create imperfect things. The fact that his omnipotence is a logical contradiction.
      I've been involved in several discussion on this board regarding the Biblical description of God's Omnipotence and I have demonstrated each and every time there is absolutely no contradiction.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      I'm sorry, but now you're implying that Christians that smoke are willingly and knowingly worshiping a sun-god or Baal? Seems pretty foolish to me. I'm pretty sure my mother would disagree with you. So, no, they're not worshiping Gods by smoking. That's like saying when a person bows their head they're praying. People smoke because they're addicted to the nicotine in the cigarette, not because they want to worship a sun-god or Baal.
      You missed the entire point completely. I'm talking about the introduction of cigarettes to humans regarding it's origins. Cigarette smoking originated due to a form of worship. This early form of worship has not benefited humans at all. And as a result the cigarette has carried over widespread to kill millions upon millions world-wide. Now you can prove me wrong by explaining to me what are some long term benefits of smoking cigarettes.


      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      Why does he deserve it? Why does a perfect being feel he deserves something?
      I never said God "felt" like He deserves anything. It's God's natural right to to receive our adoration, worship, praise and thanksgiving because through him life exist.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      Yet the Bible states women and children were murdered. Does the Bible contain yet another lie?
      The Bible doesn't state women and children were murdered in Jericho. Produce the verse where it clearly states women and children were murdered in Jericho.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      There's also no record Jesus was ever born besides the Bible saying so, are you going to lack belief in that now?
      Dude, I was referencing Scripture, how did you think otherwise?

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      I'm sorry, but to me, killing innocent men, women and children is evil.
      Well be that as it may but none who were eradicated were innocent by no means as I've previously explained. Not to mention in the case of women and children innocent or guilty there is no record in the narratives that supports women and children were killed. God doesn't impose judgement on a group of people for absolutely no reason.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      I can't logically assume that as those traits are logical contradictions, but I feel anyone can judge anyone by saying they're evil when they kill innocent men, women or children.
      The Bible doesn't specifically state rather women and children were killed. Based off the fact that the battles of Jericho were fought among soldiers and within the military outpost (both of these doesn't include women nor children). Also the Bible attest the witnessing of many Canaanite people after the battle My question to you is, would you conclude that there is a possibility that women and children were not involved in this battle?


      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      It's also evil to create a person who has no chance of getting into Heaven.
      Well, people were not originally created to live, die and go to Heaven. So I don't see any evilness here either.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      If you read the Bible use a little common sense and do a little research you will see there isn't evidence for both, only one.
      No, there is evidence for both. You just seem to want to state your opinion without questioning it. You haven't read the Bible much either judging by the rest of your post.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      That's not why I don't believe in it. I've already gave you the reason why I do not support the idea of 3 entities comprised as 1 Godhead. However I will answer the following questions.

      Do you believe the crucifixion of Jesus was a gruesome ordeal? Yes
      Do you believe Jesus was resurrected? Yes
      Do you believe there will be a Rapture? I believe in a second coming and a new Kingdom place here on Earth.
      Do you think Satan is a bad guy? I believe Satan is the master of deception. If this constitutes as someone being bad then yes.
      Do you believe when people die they either go to Heaven or Hell? Most will go to neither only a select few will gain access to Heaven.
      There's not really anything said about the crucifixion to make anyone believe it was really gruesome.

      There's nothing that says Jesus was resurrected, only that the stone covering the tomb had been moved and his body missing.

      It never speaks of the Rapture or an end to the world in the Bible.

      Satan is working for God, if Satan is evil then the work of God is evil. Jesus will take over his job in the end.

      No one will go to Heaven or Hell when they die as they're supposed to stay in the grave until judgement day.

      Also, why do you believe in an afterlife when it wasn't adopted until later on in Christianity?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      I've been involved in several discussion on this board regarding the Biblical description of God's Omnipotence and I have demonstrated each and every time there is absolutely no contradiction.
      It very much is a contradiction. Omnipotence means he's capable of doing anything as he's all-powerful. Is he able to create a rock so heavy that he himself can not lift it? No, if he does he's not omnipotent and if he lifts it he's not omnipotent. Omnipotence is a logical contradiction.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      You missed the entire point completely. I'm talking about the introduction of cigarettes to humans regarding it's origins. Cigarette smoking originated due to a form of worship. This early form of worship has not benefited humans at all. And as a result the cigarette has carried over widespread to kill millions upon millions world-wide. Now you can prove me wrong by explaining to me what are some long term benefits of smoking cigarettes.
      I didn't miss the point, you stated people still worship cigarettes by naming it off as something people worship--worship is present tense. You should have stated "worshiped," maybe.

      Also, if you want to do the whole talk about millions killed, what's your defense for the Christian God who's been the influence for millions killed?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      I never said God "felt" like He deserves anything. It's God's natural right to to receive our adoration, worship, praise and thanksgiving because through him life exist.
      Through him diseases exist, too. Apparently he likes to punish people that don't deserve it. Do you think babies deserve to be born with a hole in their heart or some other problem?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      The Bible doesn't state women and children were murdered in Jericho. Produce the verse where it clearly states women and children were murdered in Jericho.
      Joshua 6:21
      King James Version (KJV)
      "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."

      By saying "young and old" it implies children and adults.

      If you just want to try and deny that then we can look at other parts in the Bible.

      2 Kings 2:23-24
      Isaiah 14:21
      Hosea 9:11-16
      Ezekiel 9:5-7
      Exodus 12:29-30
      Jeremiah 51:20-26
      Leviticus 26:21-22
      Isaiah 13:15-18

      Just a few. Not to mention verses where God apparently condones the rape of innocent women.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Dude, I was referencing Scripture, how did you think otherwise?
      Yeah, I just wanted to see if you only go by the Bible word for word and refuse to think about anything you read.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Well be that as it may but none who were eradicated were innocent by no means as I've previously explained. Not to mention in the case of women and children innocent or guilty there is no record in the narratives that supports women and children were killed. God doesn't impose judgement on a group of people for absolutely no reason.
      According to the Bible young children aren't held accountable for their sins due to not being at the age of accountability, was this town an exception?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      The Bible doesn't specifically state rather women and children were killed. Based off the fact that the battles of Jericho were fought among soldiers and within the military outpost (both of these doesn't include women nor children). Also the Bible attest the witnessing of many Canaanite people after the battle My question to you is, would you conclude that there is a possibility that women and children were not involved in this battle?
      Of course, why would the Bible stated they destroyed the men and women, young and old if they weren't there? Isn't your Lord all-knowing? Isn't your Bible supposed to be full of truthful things (even though it has false claims in it)?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo View Post
      Well, people were not originally created to live, die and go to Heaven. So I don't see any evilness here either.
      Really? You don't think it's evil for God to create a person that has no chance of getting into Heaven? That's some crazy morals you have.

      "Get a load of this guys! I'm going to create this woman and make it so she goes to Hell in the end!"

      God is such a humorous guy.

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      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ View Post
      No, there is evidence for both. You just seem to want to state your opinion without questioning it. You haven't read the Bible much either judging by the rest of your post.
      Repeating myself, no there isn't evidence for both, only one.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      There's not really anything said about the crucifixion to make anyone believe it was really gruesome.
      Let's see here, getting beat with whips specifically designed to cut into human flesh. Having a crown of thrones forced into your scalp, being hung up on a cross naked by nail piercings into the hands and feet.

      According to Dr. Frederick Zugibe, piercing of the median nerve of the hands with a nail can cause pain so incredible that even morphine won't help, “severe, excruciating, burning pain, like lightning bolts traversing the arm into the spinal cord.” Rupturing the foot's plantar nerve with a nail would have a similarly horrible effect.

      Furthermore, the position of the body on a cross is designed to make it extremely difficult to breathe.

      Frederick Farrar described the intended, torturous effect: “For indeed a death by crucifixion seems to include all that pain and death can have of horrible and ghastly—dizziness, cramp, thirst, starvation, sleeplessness, traumatic fever, tetanus, shame, publicity of shame, long continuance of torment, horror of anticipation, mortification of untended wounds—all intensified just up to the point at which they can be endured at all, but all stopping just short of the point which would give to the suffer the relief of unconsciousness.”

      One doctor has called it “a symphony of pain” produced by every movement, with every breath; even a slight breeze on his skin could bring screaming pain at this point.

      Medical examiner, Dr. Frederick Zugibe, believes Christ died from shock due to loss of blood and fluid, plus traumatic shock from his injuries, plus cardiogenic shock causing Christ's heart to fail.

      None of this sounds remotely gruesome to you? If not then you have issues.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      There's nothing that says Jesus was resurrected, only that the stone covering the tomb had been moved and his body missing.

      Scripture supplies definite proof that He was bodily resurrected (not just spiritually speaking).

      • John 2:19, 21 " .... He spake of the temple of His body."


      A The tomb was empty.
      • Matthew 28:6 (Luke 24:1-3, 12; John 20:1-9, Mark 16:2-6)

      B. He appeared visibly to many people.
      Acts 1:3 "... He showed Himself alive after His passion by infallible proofs..." Acts 13:30, 31
      • First to Mary Magdalene. John 20:14, 16, 18 (Mark 16:9)
      • Then to the other women. Matthew 28:9
      • To Peter. Luke 24:34; 1 Corinthians 15:5
      • To Cleopas and the other disciple on the way to Emmaus. Luke 24:15
      • In the closed room, to ten disciples. Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19, 20
      • To the eleven. John 20:26, 29
      • In the mountains, to the eleven. Matthew 28:10, 17
      • At the sea, to Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples. John 21:1, 14, etc.

      • To five hundred brethren at once. 1 Corinthians 15:6
      • To James, and to all the apostles. Acts 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:7
      • To Paul. Acts 9:3-6; 22:17-21; 23:11; 1 Corinthians 15:8


      C. He talked with them.
      • Matthew 28:10, 18; Luke 24:15-17, 25-27, 36-49
      • John 20:15-18, 22, 23, 26-29; 21:5-6, 10-22; Acts 1:3


      D. He ate with them.

      • Luke 24:30, 35, 41-43; John 21:12, 15; Acts 1:34; 10:39-41


      E. They touched Him.

      • The women. Matthew 28:9
      • The disciples. Luke 24:39
      • Thomas. John 20:27


      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      It never speaks of the Rapture or an end to the world in the Bible.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ne-yo
      I believe in a second coming and a new Kingdom place here on Earth.
      Matthew 24

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Satan is working for God, if Satan is evil then the work of God is evil. Jesus will take over his job in the end.
      Why would Satan be working for God? Where did you get this nonsense from?

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      No one will go to Heaven or Hell when they die as they're supposed to stay in the grave until judgement day.
      First of all I never said anything about anyone going to Hell. Now with regards to Heaven... Revelation 7:1-8

      “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

      from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.”

      Facts:

      The 144,00 are all sealed on their forehead and are servants of God.
      They are sealed before any harm is done on earth.
      They are from all the tribes of Israel.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Also, why do you believe in an afterlife when it wasn't adopted until later on in Christianity?
      You mean why do I believe in the resurrection?


      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      It very much is a contradiction. Omnipotence means he's capable of doing anything as he's all-powerful. Is he able to create a rock so heavy that he himself can not lift it? No, if he does he's not omnipotent and if he lifts it he's not omnipotent. Omnipotence is a logical contradiction.
      The Biblical description of God's Omnipotence is not a contradiction. Your version of Omnipotence is just silly and illogical, it doesn't even apply to God.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      I didn't miss the point, you stated people still worship cigarettes by naming it off as something people worship--worship is present tense. You should have stated "worshiped," maybe.
      You did miss the point and you're still missing the point. Cigarettes was introduced as a form of worship, worshiping other idols doesn't benefit people. No one is implying that people who smoke cigarettes in 2012 is worshiping cigarettes. What I'm trying to get you to understand is the fact that people are smoking because the cigarette was introduced to us through a form of worship. I don't know if I could make it any simpler than that.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Also, if you want to do the whole talk about millions killed, what's your defense for the Christian God who's been the influence for millions killed?
      What are you referring to The Great Flood?

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Through him diseases exist, too. Apparently he likes to punish people that don't deserve it.
      If this is the case would you also agree that through Him Life and Love exist?

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Do you think babies deserve to be born with a hole in their heart or some other problem?
      God didn't originally create humans to have these particular medical afflictions. These sorts of things transpired as a result of Man's disobedience. We didn't originally have genetic defects but because we are all descendants of the first man and woman who have sinned then sin and degradation travel through their offspring's.


      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Joshua 6:21
      King James Version (KJV)
      "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
      and once again...

      Quote Originally Posted by The Book of Difficulties
      1) The Canaanites were far from innocent. The Canaanites abhorrent immorality is described in Leviticus 18, which includes descriptions of such Canaanite practices as child sacrifice (see Leviticus 18:21, 24, 25, and 26). These people were not walking around minding their own business. They were a dangerous, defiled nation (Geisler, 137).

      2) God had given Palestine more than 400 years to repent, starting with the promise to Abraham in Genesis 15:16. The people of the land, however, had not repented (137).

      3) In regards to killing everyone, including women and children, the fact of the matter is that they were part of a people whose depravity was such that anyone who came in contact with it was polluted (see Leviticus 18 once more). Geisler and Howe further put forward the controversial view that children who die before the age of accountability go to heaven (they cite 2 Samuel 12:23 for this) and so God was being merciful by bringing them to Him rather than having them condemned for eternity (138–I am not endorsing the latter part of this argument, but I think it was worth repeating here).

      4) God’s sovereignty means that He who has created life may also take it (138).

      5) The threat of such a vile, violent, and corrupt people meant they must be eradicated so as not to lead astray God’s chosen people, who had already shown themselves susceptible to such apostasy (138).
      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      If you just want to try and deny that then we can look at other parts in the Bible.
      Kings 2:23-24
      Isaiah 14:21
      Hosea 9:11-16
      Ezekiel 9:5-7
      Exodus 12:29-30
      Jeremiah 51:20-26
      Leviticus 26:21-22
      Isaiah 13:15-18
      I'm just going to say this and you can take it how you want to. God is the only one who has the right to take any life. He is All Powerful. He is Holy. He is Just. He is also Loving and merciful. All life comes from God, He can do with it whatever He so chooses. Any person who ever died as a result of God's decision did so as a result of sin and disobedience. It could have been avoided in each and every case. When God makes a decision it is Just, because God alone is Holy. Who is the creation to question it's creator ? GOD LOVES those who Love Him and gives them eternal life through Christ Jesus. Look to God's Love and Not His Judgment. Who are you to accuse the All Mighty of Injustice, or to call Him evil. He alone is God ! And all His decisions are just and righteous. Even if you don't agree.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      According to the Bible young children aren't held accountable for their sins due to not being at the age of accountability, was this town an exception?
      I believe this is different with each individual, and only God knows what age this is. Some people think this age is the age of twelve.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Of course, why would the Bible stated they destroyed the men and women, young and old if they weren't there? Isn't your Lord all-knowing? Isn't your Bible supposed to be full of truthful things (even though it has false claims in it)?
      Well I'm a very open-minded person which is why I don't take everything I see literally. I find possibilities to many scenarios not just Biblical but through life in general. It's just the way I'm made, I'm a thinker like that. However I also respect my God enough to not question His authority no matter what people like you think of Him.

      Quote Originally Posted by nitsuJ
      Really? You don't think it's evil for God to create a person that has no chance of getting into Heaven? That's some crazy morals you have.
      Do you believe God exist?

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