Heaven is not the afterlife

[Xei]

So, I got talking to this liberal minded (gay) Anglican at the bar tonight, along with this other Catholic guy. We were essentially debating religion and ended up pretty much agreeing. But very interesting to me is how the first guy exactly corroborated for me something that I've suspected before: the Kingdom of Heaven does not refer not life after death. It refers to Heaven on Earth; a worldly, mortal utopia. Statements like, 'by loving your neighbour, you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven' are NOT delineating some kind of convoluted reward system for good deeds after death; it's a simple statement that by living in the correct way (for instance, by not coveting money), you will create an Earthly paradise, and peace for yourself and others. Show me where in the Bible where it says that the Kingdom of Heaven is the afterlife, rather than obviously referring to a moral code by which we can make the world a better place.

[Darkmatters]

Not only is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, but Hell is merely a grave or rubbish heap: 'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment. This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures. 'Gehenna' or 'The valley of the son of Hinnom' which is what the Greek word means, was the rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus which was also used to burn the bodies of criminals who had suffered capital punishment. Most of the occurrences of the word 'hell' in the New Testament refer to this 'place of burning' outside of Jerusalem. SOURCE Also here's corroboration of the idea that the Kingdom is meant to be on earth: http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_kingdom.htm

[Ne-yo]

Xei why are you acting as if this is new, news for you? Zhaylin and I have already told you this before and with regards to what Darkmatters mentioned regarding what Hell really is, we've explained this several times in these threads. :p

[Darkmatters]

I'm pretty sure Xei was drunk yesterday as per his thread about alcoholic beverages and his behavior in chat. As for myself, I hadn't seen this info posted before.

[Ne-yo]

I'll have to dig because I haven't been in R/S for quite some time but I'll pull it up.

[Prancingwolf]

This is interesting. But what about Paul at the 'Pearly Gates', not that I'm into all the bible stuff. It's a liitle backasswards. BTW, who cares if the guy at the bar is gay? Are gays more philosophical

[Ne-yo]

I couldn't find mine it's obviously buried deep here. But I did come across Zhaylin's It depends on which theist you ask. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people actually go to heaven. The rest of mankind is resurrected to life on a perfect Paradise Earth. (There's a lot of Scripture to support this, but I'm lazy and don't want to look for them right now) 'The wages of sin is death' When you die, your "debt" is paid. A place like hell would be a sort of "double jeopardy". For 1,000 years, Satan and the demons are unable to influence people. During that time, people will be resurrected on Earth and brought to perfection. After 1,000 years, the Devil and his minions are let loose again "for a little while" and people have a final test. Most still side with Satan. Those people are destroyed. The only ones left are the righteous and then "the meek shall inherit the earth". What's after that? How big is your imagination. People wont die, so they have an eternity to learn art, science, trades and other skills. Those in Heaven have a sort of administrative position. And- personally- I think they'll create sustainable life on other planets so perfected mankind can migrate there when earth begins to populate again. Yea, I share this view.

[Prancingwolf]

One theory I believe is Satan was created as an Anti-God character to freighten people into adopting christianity. He is a personifactaion of evil people, things and deeds.

[Xei]

I couldn't find mine it's obviously buried deep here. But I did come across Zhaylin's Yea, I share this view. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying. Try again.

[Ne-yo]

It has everything to do with exactly what you're saying here and NO, I will not try again because I do not need to.

[Xei]

> Claim you've told me this over and over > Can't find a single example > Provide a message with absolutely no relevance I don't have this problem when talking to anybody else. Look, just read the OP again. "During that time, people will be resurrected on Earth and brought to perfection" is totally and utterly at odds with what I'm saying, and 2 + 2 is not 5. I explicitly said that Heaven has nothing to do with life after death, that it has nothing to do with a religious 'test', that it has nothing to do with immortality... yet that is the post you provide me with. Try again.

[Ne-yo]

Well that's exactly what I'm saying Xei, which is why I was saying this is not new, news to you and I agree that 2 + 2 does NOT equal 5.

[ThePreserver]

On a related note, I don't like the idea of asking God for forgiveness. Ask he whom you've wronged for forgiveness, and the forgiveness you receive will satisfy your own desire for forgiveness, and would most likely settle any "God-related" forgiveness issues, would it not? Don't pray for something good to happen, go out and make it happen. That itself is the act of God. "Miracles" can be caused by other people just trying to be good people. I'm sure if "God" is allegedly all forgiving and all-loving, and can't physically DO ANYTHING, wouldn't it be best that we do the acts of God? We are in God's image, allegedly, we are part of the universe, why don't we take responsibility for things in which we believe? If we are all already a part of God, or the Universe, or whatever you want to call it, our actions ARE the acts of God. (And I agree on the Heaven idea. Do what is morally correct to you, and you will create peace and heaven for yourself and those you love. They all go with the same basic principle; you have to do it yourself if you want it to happen.)

[Darkmatters]

Amen to that Brotha!!

[LucidFlanders]

I'm in heaven when i feel good, i'm in hell when i'm depressed.

[ThePreserver]

I'm in heaven when i feel good, i'm in hell when i'm depressed. You sound like someone who just listened to a lecture from historical Jesus of Nazareth.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[Darkmatters]

Yes - I always took that to mean that you only reach heaven on earth by emulating Jesus - doing as he does. Try to live a life of peace and love. Of course it's also the obligatory disclaimer - every religion has one. "Only this religion is real - all others are false. Fire and brimstone. etc."

[Unelias]

If you admit taking the Bible as compeltely symbolic sense then everything is clear and unveiled. It is all about us making this world heaven or hell, with our actions against other people.

[ThePreserver]

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. The Gospel according to John is just one of over a dozen Gospels out there. Why do we always say John is right, but everyone else is wrong? I for one like the Gospel as told by Judas. Judas wasn't a traitor, rather, he HAD to do it, so Jesus could show people that he would be willing to sacrifice everything if only people would love each other more. Judas may have been Jesus' closest disciple.

[Xei]

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If that was supposed to be a response to the OP, I hope you realise that you totally failed.

[Original Poster]

The Gospel according to John is just one of over a dozen Gospels out there. Why do we always say John is right, but everyone else is wrong? I for one like the Gospel as told by Judas. Judas wasn't a traitor, rather, he HAD to do it, so Jesus could show people that he would be willing to sacrifice everything if only people would love each other more. Judas may have been Jesus' closest disciple. Yeah I heard that too, not sure if I heard it from the Gospel of Judas or not. More on the OP: Not only is heaven not an immaterial realm, but baptism is not water dunking. There are many things lost through time. I believe your idea that Jesus was just trying to make the world a better place is incomplete. Better how? He describes the path to paradise and what he describes is essentially a battle between every person and the darkness inside them "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what do you not bring forth will destroy you." -Jesus, Dead Sea Scrolls. A buddhist scholar (I can never remember asian names) spoke about how after death, the demons of our imagination become real. An atheist once accounted a near-death experience where he was being accosted by Demons and called out to Jesus only to see angels come and instantaneously slay the demons. Jesus, David and Saul all went through rituals to become the messiah king where they went into the desert for the length of time and confronted their demons. (They were loaded with entheogens) What I am suggesting is that when you die, you are left only to your imagination (or rather, our imagination) and lose your material foothold, thus forcing you to come face to face with everything within you. Much of what Jesus describes is basically Buddhism with more psychedelic drugs. The path to paradise is a personal path we all take on our own, and we keep taking it even after death. Whether there is a celestial city or not is beyond the point. Most of what we know about the celestial city now comes from people like Edgar Cayce and predecessors, ideas which have slowly seeped into our common sense.

[Prancingwolf]

I've pondered that before that when we die we become what we imagine to be true. My Grandfather was an athiest, so I guess he's in some kind of nothing before nothing after thing. My mother thinks he's in hell. Sad. She's been brainwashed by the dogma of the Catholic Church.

[Original Poster]

He'd still see a being of light, he just wouldn't think it's Jesus, necessarily.

If that was supposed to be a response to the OP, I hope you realise that you totally failed. How? The father(God) is in heaven and the only way to get there is to believe in Jesus Christ as the lord and Savior of humanity.