Do we have an eternal mind ?

[erick]

I was wondering about the soul a while ago (some 15 years already) and understood that the soul is eternal, blissful not to be destroyed by any weapon and unborn. I understood we have a mind which we can get rid of to go beyond the world of form (Saguna Brahman) whether this is eternal or not. But not too long ago I openend up a book by Swami Sivananda from Rishikesh called "Spiritual Experiences" and I was reading the following : "When you throw off the veil of Adi Sakti also, you will become ONE with the pure Nirguna Para Brahman (light and energy as God), Ananta Consciousness, the Highest End of human life (Kaivalya). It is very difficult to rest here for a long time." I thought : "What the Fuck !!!!" Nirguna Brahman, the light, the light, supposed to be the highest end of human life and then he says : "It is very difficult to rest here for a long time" My world fell apart.......I never really believed that the world of form (Saguna Brahman) was the highest since minds are connected with form and minds are under control of God. So God must be light ! Sivananda blew apart and destroyed my conviction and left me with an explosion of my former beliefs, I mean, I am somebody who wants to aim for the highest goal in life and that is liberation from repeated birth and death and be joyfully happy in a world of light in which we have no minds anymore and which will be eternal, that was my conception and my safe haven. To just be spirit !! I was blown away and had to think to my time with the blisful Hare Krishna's, one day I was chanting a mantra and was thinking about the connection between the mind and the soul, and then my inner voice told me : "The soul desires to express itself through the mind" question that popped up was : "Why" and my inner voice told me : "Back to Godhead" Back to Godhead ??? Back to the world of form ? The world in which we have a mind to express ourselves because that is what the soul desires for ? So my question is..........Do we have an eternal mind ? That sheds a whole new light into my spiritual spectrum of convictions I have. If Nirguna Brahman is unattainable for the soul because it desires to express itself through the mind, then I have to let go of my previous convictions and have to allow a whole new idea into my system and that is that we are forever strollin' the material worlds, even if they are very subtle as heaven is. Beyond heaven there is the spiritual world........Nirguna and Saguna Brahman. Since Nirguna Brahman is almost unattainable for us (and appearantly boring), then the best alternative is to allow yourself to think that we have eternal minds. As the world of Nirguna Brahman can be eternal but not for us, we just have to aim for Saguna Brahman, the worlds of form (with planets in the spiritual skies and real people on it) since we have eternal minds and can enjoy ourselves in Saguna Brahman. That would indicate that we are prisoners of our minds, but I know places where the mind is filled with love, pure love and devotion, bliss and joy and happiness, now, if these worlds are eternal, so we might have eternal minds, then the truth is different than I always thought as a Mayavadi. Krishna Consciousness is teaching us about the world of love and the world of form, eternal worlds of form in which love of God is considered as the highest attainable. In the Bible God wears a helmet, in the Koran God sits on a throne and in Krishna Consciousness all is form, eternal blissful form !! I have accepted that we have an eternal mind and that makes me peaceful !!

[Original Poster]

I think you're attaching too many assumptions to the concept. Words like mind have multiple meanings, and act as signposts to describe something beyond the way we would typically define them. Having an eternal form is like having an eternal breeze. You only notice when the breeze blows, when it does not blow, you cannot be aware that there is either a breeze nor not a breeze. Only the breeze itself enables you awareness of what it means to have no breeze. But within every breeze, there is a non-breeze, which waits until the breeze ends to make its presence known. However, the non-breeze continues to be aware of the breeze. It remains constant while the breeze changes. It is the only thing which may remain constant. Just as all sounds, no matter how loud or quiet, remain surrounded and imbued by silence, and all light by darkness. So it is that the constantly changing form remains changing, and periods without change are periods without form, and without time. Time is born when a pattern becomes perceived. When the universe was born and the first objects began to move in relation to each other, we gained time. And like this, all things become as they become perceived. The tree does not fall nor not fall until its log is found. And it does not make a sound until it finds ears to hear it, even if these ears are merely ground, world and the god of that place. There is a brain, there is a mind, and then, beyond that, there is a presence. In every moment, the mind dies and is reborn, while the presence watches it from within us. Connect with that presence, give your mind space, and your judgments space. Allow them to be, and surrender to their conditions. Then you know peace.

[Arra]

Just because you read something in a book, and it sounds wise, doesn't mean it's true. Ask yourself what reason you have for believing it, if there is any reason beyond the fact that someone told you it's true.

[erick]

I think you're attaching too many assumptions to the concept. Words like mind have multiple meanings, and act as signposts to describe something beyond the way we would typically define them. Having an eternal form is like having an eternal breeze. You only notice when the breeze blows, when it does not blow, you cannot be aware that there is either a breeze nor not a breeze. Only the breeze itself enables you awareness of what it means to have no breeze. But within every breeze, there is a non-breeze, which waits until the breeze ends to make its presence known. However, the non-breeze continues to be aware of the breeze. It remains constant while the breeze changes. It is the only thing which may remain constant. Just as all sounds, no matter how loud or quiet, remain surrounded and imbued by silence, and all light by darkness. So it is that the constantly changing form remains changing, and periods without change are periods without form, and without time. Time is born when a pattern becomes perceived. When the universe was born and the first objects began to move in relation to each other, we gained time. And like this, all things become as they become perceived. The tree does not fall nor not fall until its log is found. And it does not make a sound until it finds ears to hear it, even if these ears are merely ground, world and the god of that place. There is a brain, there is a mind, and then, beyond that, there is a presence. In every moment, the mind dies and is reborn, while the presence watches it from within us. Connect with that presence, give your mind space, and your judgments space. Allow them to be, and surrender to their conditions. Then you know peace. That's interesting stuff, so awareness is the key here, to be aware that things around you are happening like the breezes, the awareness itself. I learned that there is soul, covered by gross material body and subtle mind and that we shouldn't listen to the mind in some cases. Now, isn't it too fatalistic thinking here, what if the breeze is too cold or too hot ? I presume you take action and take off a shirt or put on a jacket here, that would be action in awareness, isn't this awareness not to be compared with objectivity as like the soul who is observing the mind's actions ? Is your presence not your soul, your safe haven ? What if you took out all of your clothes in a caravan by -5degrees and meditated just to be aware and experience the cold, I did that and it worked out for at least for 35 minutes, than mindstuff took over and I got distracted, but I knew I could experience the icy cold, just by being in it's presence. What if you would meditate for hours in a park in the summer and stayed aware of all that happens around you without reacting, is that meditation, urban meditation ? How do you apply this in daily life ?

[Original Poster]

Perception notes a cold a breeze. Perception notes discomfort in the body. Perception notes the memory generated by the brain that a sweater resides in the vessel's backpack. Perception notes these variables compute and the vessel is struck with the thought, "I should put on a sweater." Perception notes the action the vessel performs to wear the sweater. Perception notes the body becomes more comfortable. Alternatively, perception notes a loud, irritating noise. The vessel becomes irritated, perception notes this irritation. Perception notes the noise has ceased. Perception notes the mind is fearful of hearing it again. Perception notes the feeling of irritation remains. Perception notes the mind feels dissatisfied it cannot feel at peace because it heard such an irritating noise. Perception notes this lack of peace.

[erick]

Just because you read something in a book, and it sounds wise, doesn't mean it's true. Ask yourself what reason you have for believing it, if there is any reason beyond the fact that someone told you it's true. Well, here Sivananda is a realized master who did heavy penance near the Ganga river in Rishikesh for 10 years in a hut, he realized Brahman, Nirguna Brahman and I believe him if he says that it is difficult to stay in the highest goal of human life, so that brought me back to the mind as something eternal, actually, it brought me peace of mind, because now I know I don't have to endevour for Nirguna Brahman which is difficult to attain (because you have to fight and destroy the mind) and then after this battle you cannot even stay in the end of human life, Nirguna Brahman, so I am not going that way anymore. It feels more peaceful for me now to accept that I am in a circle of lives, my past lives and my future lives, I have accepted that I will die and be born over and over again because I cannot and don't want to get rid of the mind anymore, you see, the reason I listen to the Vedic Sages is that I am coming to India since 1998 and in 1997 I read my first spiritual book, The Bhagavat Gita as it is by Srila Prabhupada. I got stuck in Indian thought schools and never tried to get anything from different schools. So I know the books of India, but am unaware of most of the thoughts people have here on this forum or even in life, like friends.

[erick]

Perception notes a cold a breeze. Perception notes discomfort in the body. Perception notes the memory generated by the brain that a sweater resides in the vessel's backpack. Perception notes these variables compute and the vessel is struck with the thought, "I should put on a sweater." Perception notes the action the vessel performs to wear the sweater. Perception notes the body becomes more comfortable. Alternatively, perception notes a loud, irritating noise. The vessel becomes irritated, perception notes this irritation. Perception notes the noise has ceased. Perception notes the mind is fearful of hearing it again. Perception notes the feeling of irritation remains. Perception notes the mind feels dissatisfied it cannot feel at peace because it heard such an irritating noise. Perception notes this lack of peace. A whole new world is opening to me now, I understand you, Omnis Dei !! Unfortunately I have to wake up early tomorrow since I will be going to a 5 day Gothic festival where there are 230 bands who play Celtic and Medieval music, and dress as such, Gothic kinda thing in Leipzig, Germany, so it's now 1am and I have to wake up at 7 am to percieve the music I dress normal, I just like to watch the white as paint girls with black dress and purple, red, yellow and blue hair, awesome, just bought a new camera for it since my old one is broken. I won't be online the next 5 days, so have a great weekend !!!

[Warheit]

Read up on Adolf Bastian's Psychic Unity of Humankind, Erick.

[erick]

Warheit, Read up on Adolf Bastian's Psychic Unity of Humankind, Erick. I will definately take a look on google first, thankx !! Omnis Dei, is perception not in the intelligence, must we be intelligent enought to percieve things, intelligence is in the mind and so as such we are using this part of the mind .... .

[Original Poster]

Perception comes before intelligence, and they are not the same. Intelligence requires prejudice, perception regards the whole. Intelligence is conceptual reality, perceptual reality is clearer. This is not a simply a concept to know, this is something readily knowable right now. As you watch yourself, and watch the world, you can find that this watcher need not be imbedded in your identity. You can watch yourself watching the world from god's perspective.

[Phion]

I wrote this while dosing 2C-I a couple years ago, entitled You Have A Point. Catering to the orgy of our lives, Brahman, Atman, my godhead – I observe.

[erick]

Perception comes before intelligence, and they are not the same. Intelligence requires prejudice, perception regards the whole. Intelligence is conceptual reality, perceptual reality is clearer. This is not a simply a concept to know, this is something readily knowable right now. As you watch yourself, and watch the world, you can find that this watcher need not be imbedded in your identity. You can watch yourself watching the world from god's perspective. Love the way you put it, man, especially that you can watch yourself watching the world from god's perspective. Does that mean you believe we, as souls, are light and energy, so meaning we can become God Himself ? Or do you rather think God is a person and we are His subjects ? To be honest I don't know the answer since I realized both in very brief moments, not that I am God Himself, but that I didn't have a mind for a while and that gave me such a rush, that I think that this is meant by Mayavadi's that God is light and energy and that we can be without a mind IF GOD WANTS US TO BE .......however, I don't believe we can be God Himself but we forgot that as I am not able to cure my own headache if I have one.......

[erick]

I wrote this while dosing 2C-I a couple years ago, entitled You Have A Point. Catering to the orgy of our lives, Brahman, Atman, my godhead – I observe. Beautiful, man, I wrote something as well a time ago : Many dreams we dream of past, present and future stored in dimensions unknown with people known and unknown crystalgazing, starfloating and nosebleeding if you don't take care but the dreams, hey, they're not mine, man !!! Galaxies far and beyond explaining to us that we are not alone many spirits are explaining us the truth do we hear, do we see ? we destroyed our crystals, we can't see the stars and the dreams are only Freudian sexual shit

[Original Poster]

Love the way you put it, man, especially that you can watch yourself watching the world from god's perspective. Does that mean you believe we, as souls, are light and energy, so meaning we can become God Himself ? Or do you rather think God is a person and we are His subjects ? To be honest I don't know the answer since I realized both in very brief moments, not that I am God Himself, but that I didn't have a mind for a while and that gave me such a rush, that I think that this is meant by Mayavadi's that God is light and energy and that we can be without a mind IF GOD WANTS US TO BE .......however, I don't believe we can be God Himself but we forgot that as I am not able to cure my own headache if I have one....... It means I believe that God is pure awareness itself, and to realize God, you must only be aware of awareness itself. No matter what you are focused on presently, give a piece of your attention to awareness itself, to the space, the silence, or the non-breeze.

[erick]

Interesting, thank you