Why God Exists.

[Carôusoul]

The thread title is mainly to get your attention, but is very relevant. RS is heavily dominated by is there/isn't there a god. And you probably, if you're an RS regular, have developed pretty firm ideas about where you stand on this. In this thread I'd like everyone to argue the on the opposite side. So that means I want people like O'nus, Kromoh, Abra, exobyte, scatterbrain, Xei, Mark75, TweaK, Universal Mind, Caprisun, etc etc arguing as best they can for the existence of a God of some sort, which they firmly do not believe in. On the other hand, recent regular RS posters such as really, jaurora, ShadowNightWing, praise, Ne-Yo etc etc arguing as best they can, and firmly for a materialistic view of the world, and the nonexistence of God. Please don't ruin my fun, if you don't want to be involved, don't post. I think considering everyone repeatedly in this forum has the same fucking arguments over and over again, it would be educational to see people really get competitive arguing for a different point of view. What this should encourage is that everybody, because they want to "win" the argument, will really research and try their best to prove wrong their previously held points of view. This will, if anything, make you think more fully about your view, and maybe strengthen it. No trolling. By this I mean no die hard atheist saying "lol god because banana" and no christian saying "god doesn't exist because i'm afraid of his righteous judgement". Put effort into it. The worst that can happen is noone cares. But my hope, although probably foolish, is that you'll give this a go. tl;dr in this thread try to argue against whatever you believe.

[Carôusoul]

Now. To try hopefully and get the ball rolling I'm going to start off. You may know that I am quite skeptical, and do not believe in any kind of spiritualism or God. So I'm going to present as best I can, a case for the existence of God. And what i'd like is for someone who believes in God, to respond to this and argue against me. From there I hope more people will get involved. ok. So, why should we believe in God? Well firstly I'd say that I can't prove God here, but what I can do is present to you the idea that the existence of some kind of God is the best possible explanation we have for the existence of life, and many other factors of the universe. Life, is a miracle. Really considering the probabilities, it is absurdly unlikely for life to form, seemingly of it's own accord, on a planet in totally unhospitable conditions. This isn't even to mention that scientists still don't really understand fully what exactly causes the spark of life so to speak. So the obvious question we're left with is just why, and how? howcome the temperature of the earth isn't just a few degrees different, meaning there could have never been life? Why is it that earth is the perfect condition to gestate life, and intelligent life that can flourish like we do? The odds are astronomically stacked against us. This suggests there has to be something else at work. Now this alone I'll admit is a far cry from convincing anyone of a God, but that's not all. There is no one single argument or point to show us that God exists, rather if we look at all of the evidence and put it together, it is likely. The big bang is one of the biggest mysteries we know of. Every event has a cause, so we assume, but for some reason the universe, and life "just happened". There must have been some kind of propelling force, something to set the whole thing off. Now we have no way of knowing what that was, but given that it perfectly all resulted in the fruition of intelligent life on a near perfect planet for us, is at least interesting, and it does suggest a form of design. Looking at the way things work in the universe, they work like a machine. Like clockwork. Every single thing we can look at in the universe works perfectly for it's purpose and works just like a machine. Think about the solar system. All the planets perfectly circling the sun in such a way that they all sustain each other? Is this the result of some random explosion? Do explosions result in perfectly harmonic systems designed for life? No. They don't. Taking even a step back to look at the universe we see that it operates under a set of guidelines. The universe has clear rules. These can be called natural laws, gravity, forces, motion. We are living in a machine, where everything is governed by rules. Where do these rules come from? Why when let go of an apple, will it always fall to the ground? Why not one day float upwards and off. Because of gravity, you might say, but why does gravity have to be there? What makes that happen so perfectly? This goes on forever, everything seems to be made to "just work" by some cause behind it. Nothing can come from nothing. So there must have been at some stage some, thing to push all these laws into effect and sustain them. Science may study the laws, but really, it is theology that studies the source. Even in ourselves, DNA, the substance that programs who and what we are, down to the detail, is a code. Just like a computer program. Again I've got to ask you, do these things come just from an explosion? Do perfect codes supported by perfect ecosystems supported by perfectly in balance gravitational forces really "just happen"? Now, nothing I've said proves that the God we all might recognise exists. But what it does show, at least, is that there has to be some kind of source to everything. which is beyond the laws of science, because it is the creator, the source of them. Science has no answer, to what that source might be. What is this root of the collective consciousness and balanced universe we live in? We don't have an answer. But the best answer we do have is something that looks alot like ideas of a "God" throughout the ages. So, what else can we go by?

[Universal Mind]

I like the idea. Noogah tried it, and the thread went cuckoo in a hurry and got locked. I took it seriously, and I will give it a shot here too, after I eat some supper.

[guitarboy]

Carôu made it so it will win. God can not exist. If a god existed, the world would be changing. It may have existed at one point, but is gone now. Why would it stand by and do nothing? Why would it not help it's creations? Disease, war, old age- things a god would only make if it was a sadistic asshole. Evolution is an obvious answer- and it isn't perfect- evolution can only perfect itself when everything offending humans is extinguished-and it would throw off natures equilibrium.

[Carôusoul]

Carôu made it so it will win. God can not exist. If a god existed, the world would be changing. It may have existed at one point, but is gone now. Why would it stand by and do nothing? Why would it not help it's creations? Disease, war, old age- things a god would only make if it was a sadistic asshole. Evolution is an obvious answer- and it isn't perfect- evolution can only perfect itself when everything offending humans is extinguished-and it would throw off natures equilibrium. The basic point you're making here is a real problem, how can a moral God allow the atrocities we see in the world? Well, think about it. Imagine if we all lived a perfect life where nothing bad ever happened? We'd be like children. Like babies. The way we grow, the way we spiritually develop as human beings, is through our experience and reflection upon suffering in the world. It's like the story of Buddha. Prince Siddhartha lived his whole life never exposed to any of the problems or suffering in the world, and he never developed, he never understood the universe. When he left and saw it all, it was a step on the way to enlightenment. We can only grow as people, if there is evil for us to face. ANOTHER point is that God allows us free will. God has created us not as his little robots, but as individual creatures, with minds and consciousness. A part of this is having free will. And God cannot stop the killer before he kills, because that would stop us from having free will. Evil is not God's fault, it's our, and God is watching to see if we can fix this problem ourselves.

[Universal Mind]

Carôu made it so it will win. God can not exist. If a god existed, the world would be changing. It may have existed at one point, but is gone now. Why would it stand by and do nothing? Why would it not help it's creations? Disease, war, old age- things a god would only make if it was a sadistic asshole. Evolution is an obvious answer- and it isn't perfect- evolution can only perfect itself when everything offending humans is extinguished-and it would throw off natures equilibrium. God is not standing by and doing nothing. He is seeing to it that his plan goes through. The plan involves suffering, but the plan leads to something so great it will be as if the suffering never existed. The suffering is infinitely small compared to the greatness of Heaven, which will be realized by those who deserve it. Those who do not deserve Heaven are suffering because it is the right thing for them to do. They deserve it. We do not completely have the capacity to understand why the world was created in the way that it was, but it was for God's reasons, and great things are coming for those who are loyal to the creator. The existence of happiness and love is proof of God's existence. No matter how much you try to explain the scientific reasons for happiness and love, the fact is that those are the mental realities that guide a great deal of human behavior. The things that could have done it instead are infinite in number, but we have love and happiness. That is revelation of the existence of God. The same is true of beauty and all other positive aspects of human experience. The universe could only have been created by an infinitely great artist. The universe is a work of art, so there must be an artist. Artists have consciousness. The artist is God.

[davej]

"Whoever acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. But whoever disowns Me before men, I will disown him before My Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33) Sorry, sitting out of this one.

[Universal Mind]

"Whoever acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. But whoever disowns Me before men, I will disown him before My Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33) Sorry, sitting out of this one. It's not true disowning if it is facetious. It is just getting into the mentality of the other side so you can understand it better.

[davej]

I have been leaning on the other side of the fence before and I know how easy it would be to say God doesn't exist because of this or that... I have already been in the questioning mind frame. Where as I do find this interesting and respect each one of you for trying, I will not be participating

[Universal Mind]

I have been leaning on the other side of the fence before and I know how easy it would be to say God doesn't exist because of this or that... I have already been in the questioning mind frame. But have you ever argued it? It's an even better probe.

[Maria92]

"Whoever acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. But whoever disowns Me before men, I will disown him before My Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33) Sorry, sitting out of this one. Killjoy. Surely a God must exist. How did the universe come to being? You expect matter to just spontaneously appear from nothing? Something set that ball rolling...my bets are on an omnipotent being. And what about life? Where did all that stuff come from? Molecules don't just spontaneously form living organisms; plenty of failed laboratory experiments back this up. Even under PERFECT conditions, we have not seen a single case of abiogenesis, and it is likely that we never shall. A living being is too different from its chemical constituents. A god is the only logical solution. And as for suffering on this planet: God is testing us. He is seeing if mankind genuinely loves him simply for being him. This was his ultimate goal when creating mankind: to create a species that loves him. Pain and hardship are only tests and trials. Sure, he could make a utopia, but to what point and purpose? Mankind must be left alone to grow and develop on its own, with as little interference as possible. By overcoming the evils of the world, mankind will learn and grow, and become more compassionate. It is a hard lesson that must be learned, but an essential one. There, I think I did pretty okay.

[Bonsay]

I can't do it. There is a reason I'm atheist. I don't need to understand the opposite point of view, because it's not something hard to understand. What do you need to be certain of something like a God? Some speculation for the essence of the belief, whether mostly based on the observed reality (meaning science) or something more subjective and, for some reason, faith in that speculation. On what level of existence you put faith in is up to you - your emotional, cognitive, conative state. I completely understand the fact we all put faith in something, the difference is, as I said, why and into what. Whether it's the "percieved holy spirit", or some innate affection to an idea based on your education or reasoning from the events of your life. Now personally, I really don't know what I will achieve with this other than spontaneous cynicism and the resulting offensiveness. I don't laugh at the possibility of gods, auras, psychokinesis etc. I "laugh" (it's not like I gain any emotional satisfaction by judging people) at people's acceptance of these beliefs. The word laugh doesn't really do my attitude justice. Since the way I view reality is mostly objective and I see nothing wrong in people believing in something resulting from a specific and unchangable path in their life (Unless I take a certain moral standpoint, which requires me being personally judgmental). Now I can guess that some might say "If you can't then don't post". But I'm really interested in what you're trying to acomplish. Either I'm extremely arrogant for stating (believing even) that somebodies thoughts or actions can "easily" be understood when one takes a rational standpoint and objective distance. I don't know about you, but I don't see such a big deal in understanding the formation and acceptance of a belief, as I stated above, everybody is doing it! Some nazi beliefs and war attrocities may be baffeling and unbelievable, but I don't see a reason why they can't be explained or understood, all the "Hitler's" and nazis were only human, afterall. Perhaps, if not most likely, my rant is just a representation of my faith in objectivism, but is there a chance somebody agrees with me? Sorry for breaking up the friendly mood and atmosphere. It's just that "understanding the other side" (trying at least) is all we do in every thread on this forum, if not in life in general. It's impossible for me (and probably everybody else) to hold somebodies belief without being that somebody at the same time. Wouldn't trying to present that beleif diminish the quality of the message? Unless you're doing your best to really understand and fool your mind to make it as if you actually believed, the posts, to me, just seems to be some exercise in tolerance. Nothing bad, but not really the point. Grats to those who can do this though, to me it feels like I'm betraying my "inner Jesus" . Sorry again.

[The Enterer]

The universe is simply a random thing that came together because of some random shit and there is nothing miraculous or unfathomable about it. Shit, there are probably an infinite number of universes out there. At least that is what some really smart scientists say. They proved it with math or something. Science has pretty much got the whole thing figured out. You religious idiots think it was some giant in the clouds that pilled it out of his ass. Lulwut? Consciousness is pretty cool but it’s just science too. So what if it took a zillion years to manifest itself in matter that was aware of it’s own consciousness? It was bound to happen eventually. Just because conscious is implicit down to the quantum level and the entire universe is conspiring to organize patterns that combine and grow in complexity infinitum doesn’t mean there’s any organizing principle universal consciousness implicit intelligence god with arms and legs and a big old beard sitting on a throne somewhere. It’s just science, you retards! People who believe in god are the same kind of people that believe in all that paranormal crap. I hate that crap because science can’t explain it, and stuff that science can’t explain is unscientific. I mean I’ll believe it when science confirms it, but until then it’s just B.S. I don’t care if people have experienced all those things universally since the dawn of history, it’s still unscientific. When science tells me it’s scientific then I’ll believe it. Science is so much better than religion because unlike religion where all you have to do is believe a bunch of unfathomable crap you read in a book and reject everything that is not in the book, all you have to do with science is accept it as the final authority on everything (you don’t have to understand it – just believe and have faith!) and reject everything that is unscientific. I mean, sure scientist used to believe a lot of really stupid stuff, but science is pretty much perfect now, just a couple loose ends to tie up. Not at all like religion because all religious people still believe that God took a crap and that’s how the universe was born or whatever. I would just like to add that anyone afraid to play this game is an intellectual pantywaist with a world view grounded in quicksand. I state this because it is so obvious that I can only see your coming into this thread announcing that you won’t play as a cry for help in the form of begging to be called out.

[davej]

I would just like to add that anyone afraid to play this game is an intellectual pantywaist with a world view grounded in quicksand. I state this because it is so obvious that I can only see your coming into this thread announcing that you won’t play as a cry for help in the form of begging to be called out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Enterer, My faith in God is not a game to me, I came into this thread not knowing what it was about except for the heading which states "Why God Exists" not lets take the opposite view on religion game. After reading some of the posts, I respected the fact that others tried. Personally I'm not going to based on the fact that I am not turning my back on God. Even though previously stated it wouldn't be seen as that, I feel it would be. I stated my reason for not playing but also wanted to show respect for those who tried. Bonsay didn't feel like doing this either based on several reasons but also showed respect for those who did. Obviously you are the one with the probelm as you felt it was necessary to to call out those who didn't try this experiement.

[The Enterer]

As long as you are afraid of your Shadow, your Shadow will be more powerful than you are. Face the motherfucker! Hey, it worked for Jesus, no?

[mowglycdb]

Aswering the question why God exists? I don't know pal, I just assume he/she/it does.

[Photolysis]

I have to say I find these kinds of threads useful in that they show some people's ignorance of the opposing viewpoint quite nicely.

[Desert Claw]

well done enterer, that was a very entertaining post - and somewhat enlightening at the same time. I personally have not taken sides in this before... so I guess I can't participate? Anyway, I am certainly going to stick around to see how this plays out.

[MementoMori]

lol i would like to participate but i hold a third party view of god being the energy that makes up the universe.... give a day and i'll write something on both sides. By the way nice thread Carousoul.

[Maria92]

The universe is simply a random thing that came together because of some random shit and there is nothing miraculous or unfathomable about it. Shit, there are probably an infinite number of universes out there. At least that is what some really smart scientists say. They proved it with math or something. Science has pretty much got the whole thing figured out. You religious idiots think it was some giant in the clouds that pilled it out of his ass. Lulwut? Consciousness is pretty cool but it’s just science too. So what if it took a zillion years to manifest itself in matter that was aware of it’s own consciousness? It was bound to happen eventually. Just because conscious is implicit down to the quantum level and the entire universe is conspiring to organize patterns that combine and grow in complexity infinitum doesn’t mean there’s any organizing principle universal consciousness implicit intelligence god with arms and legs and a big old beard sitting on a throne somewhere. It’s just science, you retards! People who believe in god are the same kind of people that believe in all that paranormal crap. I hate that crap because science can’t explain it, and stuff that science can’t explain is unscientific. I mean I’ll believe it when science confirms it, but until then it’s just B.S. I don’t care if people have experienced all those things universally since the dawn of history, it’s still unscientific. When science tells me it’s scientific then I’ll believe it. Science is so much better than religion because unlike religion where all you have to do is believe a bunch of unfathomable crap you read in a book and reject everything that is not in the book, all you have to do with science is accept it as the final authority on everything (you don’t have to understand it – just believe and have faith!) and reject everything that is unscientific. I mean, sure scientist used to believe a lot of really stupid stuff, but science is pretty much perfect now, just a couple loose ends to tie up. Not at all like religion because all religious people still believe that God took a crap and that’s how the universe was born or whatever. I detect satire. I would just like to add that anyone afraid to play this game is an intellectual pantywaist with a world view grounded in quicksand. I state this because it is so obvious that I can only see your coming into this thread announcing that you won’t play as a cry for help in the form of begging to be called out. Yup. The Enterer, My faith in God is not a game to me, I came into this thread not knowing what it was about except for the heading which states "Why God Exists" not lets take the opposite view on religion game. After reading some of the posts, I respected the fact that others tried. Personally I'm not going to based on the fact that I am not turning my back on God. Even though previously stated it wouldn't be seen as that, I feel it would be. I stated my reason for not playing but also wanted to show respect for those who tried. Bonsay didn't feel like doing this either based on several reasons but also showed respect for those who did. Obviously you are the one with the probelm as you felt it was necessary to to call out those who didn't try this experiement. Post an argument or GTFO. Same goes for Bonsai. And really, if your god is just that fickle, that he will condemn you to eternal damnation for one facetious post on an online forum, is it even worth it? Of the literally hundreds of thousands, the infinite possibilities, how did you end up on believing what you do now? We're not asking you to forsake your god...all we want are some arguments from the opposing side. I'm sure your god will understand. He's supposed to be compassionate, remember? I have to say I find these kinds of threads useful in that they show some people's ignorance of the opposing viewpoint quite nicely. Indeed. I include myself in this, too.

[nzguy]

Great idea for a thread. I would participate, but my current opinion is "under review"

[youssarian]

I have sixteen years of atheism under my belt, so I think I can safely say I have something of an ability to play both sides. So, being Christian, I have to pose an argument to disprove God. Memory, fail me not! The universe is a big place. Shaped like a Pringle. And an old place, thirteen billion years old. And lots of theorists think that we're just one universe in a massive collection of universes and dimensions. Even though the odds of humanity becoming what it is are low, that much room for trial and error is enough for some freak event like us to occur. A lot of theories are around, quite credible in my opinion, to explain how DNA and life appeared. Science, when grounded in the truth, which it is, is how things came to be and how they work. (Sorry, I never took the time to refine my stance. I never had to defend my beliefs.)

[O'nus]

It is abundantly proven that there is energy within all mass. All matter contains energy. When considering the big bang and the research done at the LHC, even they must consider the time in which there was no matter to which energy can manifest. There was a time in which there was energy without tangibility. Without a form of tangibility and mass, this energy is infinite. Although we obviously do not understand this energy at this time, it is clearly within everything that we know of now. If we define God as an omnipresent being, then it is energy. If we define God as omniscient, then it is energy. We cannot properly attach morality to this energy as we do not know of its consciousness. However, we can speculate on its morality; the flourishing of the energy. In this case, the ideal is to be respectful to it. As entropy shows that energy deteriorates over time regardless of our interaction (as of yet) then we are powerless to how we maintain it. In that respect, we must consider that it is ideal that we simply survive as best as we can and equally as we can with others in respect to our lucky time with this God. At that, God is abundantly clear and true. What do you think...? "Whoever acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. But whoever disowns Me before men, I will disown him before My Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33) Sorry, sitting out of this one. I have been leaning on the other side of the fence before and I know how easy it would be to say God doesn't exist because of this or that... I have already been in the questioning mind frame. Where as I do find this interesting and respect each one of you for trying, I will not be participating Thank you for pretending to contribute to a thread by saying, "Sorry, but I cannot let my guard down no matter what. I will unyieldingly always debate for my side no matter what. Free and critical thinking is out of the question!" Spoken like a true politician. Your new nick name is Bill O'Reilly now. Tell me Bill O'Reilly, why did you even bother saying anything in the thread if all you have to say is, "I cannot do what this thread asks" which is to think outside of your own beliefs and perhaps question yourself. Unless, of course, you are convinced that you have done all the questioning you need to do. You say you have already been in the questioning state of mind. What are you in now? What are we then? Where ought we be? Please, enlighten us as you are obviously atoned. ~

[NonDualistic]

It is abundantly proven that there is energy within all mass. All matter contains energy. When considering the big bang and the research done at the LHC, even they must consider the time in which there was no matter to which energy can manifest. There was a time in which there was energy without tangibility. Without a form of tangibility and mass, this energy is infinite. Although we obviously do not understand this energy at this time, it is clearly within everything that we know of now. If we define God as an omnipresent being, then it is energy. If we define God as omniscient, then it is energy. We cannot properly attach morality to this energy as we do not know of its consciousness. However, we can speculate on its morality; the flourishing of the energy. In this case, the ideal is to be respectful to it. As entropy shows that energy deteriorates over time regardless of our interaction (as of yet) then we are powerless to how we maintain it. In that respect, we must consider that it is ideal that we simply survive as best as we can and equally as we can with others in respect to our lucky time with this God. At that, God is abundantly clear and true. What do you think...? ~ Such beauty and such simple truth You bring tears to these eyes Onus

[OuroborosEterna]

I need clarification. Is this specifically a personal God/atheism exercise? I don't consider myself an atheist, but I do not believe in an omnipotent personal deity either. Just trying to figure out which side I should argue.