In short, no, morality doesn't apply to dreams. Any "people" one encounters in a dream is a figment of that person's imagination. They don't actually exist. Go wild. |
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So I on purpose would like to broaden the question of "can you sin in a dream?" To the question of "Does morality apply to dreams and how?". First of all, while I am a Christian myself, but I am interested in this subject not only from a Christian point of view, so if you are not a Christian but have moral values and would like to address this issue hopefully this makes the question more inclusive. |
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In short, no, morality doesn't apply to dreams. Any "people" one encounters in a dream is a figment of that person's imagination. They don't actually exist. Go wild. |
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The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
Formerly known as BLUELINE976
Of course all people in a dream are a figment of one's imagination. However, in my mind that does not mean that morality does not apply. If one believes that it is immoral to "covet" another married person, one can do that without that other person's presence. Also dreams have consequences on one's psyche, and if one gets into a habit of treating dream characters like shit, it could be a slippery slope toward being in the habit of treating other people like shit in waking life. Although perhaps then it is not so much that the dream itself is immoral, but rather it may reinforce thought patterns that are likely to lead to immoral behavior in waking life? |
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Remember, though, that in lucid dreams, there is a major presence in the dream that is not a figment of your imagination: You. |
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You could replace dreams or lucid dreams with "video games" and the argument would be the same. People do wild shit in Grand Theft Auto yet don't slowly turn into psychopaths. Sure, you might be conscious of your actions, but there's no issue since one would realize the difference between actions and real life and actions flowing around in their brain when they're sleeping. |
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The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
Formerly known as BLUELINE976
I think morality applies anywhere that it matters to YOU. I have done things in dreams that I felt guilty or shameful for, so I guess it matters to me. I don't have any set beliefs of right or wrong so it's pretty complicated. |
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Actually, I would use a similar argument for video games. We're not talking about anyone turning into psycopaths here, I think, just morality. And yeah, spending hours or days finding pleasure in doing very nasty things in a video game could challenge your morality... not as much as a LD could, though, because when playing the game, "You," and your immediate reality, are still quite separate from the schemata of the game. In other words, no matter how precise the details, you can always divorce your actions from the game's environment. In a dream, where the "reality" is not only your invention, but a reflection of you, this moral separation would be very difficult, if not impossible. I hope that made sense! |
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The argument is that, like actions in video games, actions in dreams are inconsequential with regard to real life. Nobody is ACTUALLY getting hurt or ACTUALLY dying. In fact they're not even ACTUALLY existing. This is why I think morality doesn't apply. People could spend hours and hours and hours intensely focused and slaughtering people in GTA and walk away realizing that it's just a game and that they would never do that in real life. For me, the same is true for dreams. The immersion might be a little more intense, but you wake up in the morning realizing that whoever you killed was the result of your neurons firing while sleeping. I don't think just because you "design your own levels" in a dream that the effect (of non-effect) is any different. You wake up and divorce your actions from real life. People do it all the time with no ill effects. |
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The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
Formerly known as BLUELINE976
Okay. Your logic is sound and very sensible. Except for one thing, which was my main point anyway (I didn't even realize "ill effects" were even being discussed, and, again, honestly don't care): |
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Cheating on your spouse in a LD is actually just a bunch of neurons firing, so yes, I can rationalize that. Since we're talking about real world examples vs. dreams, is watching porn while in a relationship with somebody else considered cheating? I mean, you are sort of imaging that you're the one doing the porn star and not the sweaty guy in the video. |
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The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
Formerly known as BLUELINE976
^^ Okay, I give up. I was just pointing out that the presence of your self-awareness in a LD may make a difference because you are witnessing your own actions. So, to avoid us getting stuck in a loop, I'm done. |
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Last edited by Sageous; 03-21-2013 at 06:18 AM.
I wonder whether to some extent it depends on an individual's tolerance and reaction. |
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Last edited by JoannaB; 03-21-2013 at 10:52 AM.
Ah, well, to some extent I agree with that. See I grew up Roman Catholic, and thus I may never be rid of the guilt no matter how much I realize that I am being too hard on myself. I am now Episcopalian, and thus less guilty and more tolerant, but let's face it: once a Catholic, always guilty. |
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I guess I lost this kind of immersion in movies pretty early probably because of my interest in filmmaking, which led me to pay a lot of attention to the mechanics behind how the films were made and how the viewers are manipulated to feel certain ways. But I did remain immersed for much longer in music - I remember in high school I was a little scared of some of the more intense 'satantic' music and heavy metal. Heh, in fact I remember in 7th or 8th grade hearing some kids in my class talking in hushed voices about this band called Black Sabbath that they ate bats onstage and were satan worshippers. I freaked out and thought "Wow - I'll never listed to THAT band!" |
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^^ Nicely said, Darkmatters, but you left off the clever conclusion that segued us back to the OP ... what the hell? |
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Sageous, where the heck did you get the idea that I am heading toward agreement that morality is not necessary in dreams??? |
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Last edited by JoannaB; 03-21-2013 at 08:25 PM.
Oops! My bad! |
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Oh, definitely no problem! And I do appreciate your comments. Also part of the problem may have been that you may have correctly read the vibe that I "like" Darkmatters which of course does not require me to be on the same page as him. Also I am not always on the same page with myself for that matter: I struggle with myself and contradict myself, and both feel very strongly that I am right and that I am wrong at times, which does not make me a waffler but just a complex person who is evolving and may not be easy to understand even for myself, so how can I blame you for misunderstanding me. |
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Haha Sage, you give me too much credit, assuming I have any kind of coherent stance on the morality of dreams. I really can't answer that one. That's why I restricted myself to only responding to small parts of what Joanna said rather than to any attempt at a real answer. |
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I have a problem considering the use of the word sin. I do not believe you can sin in real life and neither believe you can sin in a dream. And if it's a lucid dream, then you bear the knowledge that you can't actually cause any harm. However, if it is a non-lucid dream and you act immorally, that is a good reveal of hidden motivations or immoral impulses you hold within. |
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Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.
Did we use the word, "sin," much less consider its use? I saw "sinful" once, but, aside from a moment discussing our roots in Catholic guilt, the word, and its dogmatic implications, was not considered as far as I could tell with a quick sweep of the thread. Are you saying it was implied, that morality -- a sense of right and wrong -- must be directly associated with the word, "sin?". If so, why? |
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The second part of your post answers the question in the first. It does not matter if your non-lucid actions are immoral unless there's something sinful about being immoral. The very question of asking if morality still matters implies that morality is important. |
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Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.
I on purpose had tried to elevate this thread to the broader subject of morality rather than just sin because I wanted to engage non-Christians in this discussion as well, and I think the topic should apply to anyone similarly, and while for many of us morality and religion are tightly interwoven, but they do not have to be. An atheist following a philosophical tradition or even not following any tradition can still have a strong set of values, a strong sense of right and wrong. Now the focus of these values may be different, for example, their strongest moral value could be tolerance and not judging others, or it could be something completely different, but regardless of actual content of moral values the question is would that apply to dreams and how. |
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Last edited by JoannaB; 03-22-2013 at 03:20 PM.
No. I wouldn't kill someone because I don't want to live in a society where people murder other people (plus I would probably feel bad for them, plus I believe everything is connected, and the harm you cause ripples back at you). You're still allowed to mature passed psychopathic, consequence based thinking while understanding that right and wrong are purely opinion. |
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Last edited by Original Poster; 03-22-2013 at 03:26 PM.
Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.
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