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    Thread: Does morality apply to dreams and if yes how?

    1. #1
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      Does morality apply to dreams and if yes how?

      So I on purpose would like to broaden the question of "can you sin in a dream?" To the question of "Does morality apply to dreams and how?". First of all, while I am a Christian myself, but I am interested in this subject not only from a Christian point of view, so if you are not a Christian but have moral values and would like to address this issue hopefully this makes the question more inclusive.

      A few related issues I have been grappling with: if one has a non-lucid dream in which one does something that one considers immoral such as having sex with one's neighbor's spouse, would this be against one's morality? On the one hand, if it is a non-lucid dream one has no control, and dreams are uninhibited. On the other hand one could consider that this dream may be based on a hidden desire, and if that is the case, and if one has a set of moral values that considers thoughts to be immoral (such as Christianity "do not covet thy neighbor's wife") then while the dream itself may not be immoral since it is not free will, but it may be a reflection of a hidden desire / immoral thought. I would argue that perhaps in such a case one's reaction to such a dream makes a difference: whether or not one is disturbed by it.

      Another example, this time from lucid dreaming: is it ok for a married person to have lucid dream sex with someone other than one's spouse? Does it make a difference whether or not the dream character is someone one knows in real life? Does it make a difference whether in one's dream one imagines oneself to be someone else, so that it is not oneself engaging in dream sex, but one is imagining being a princess who is with Prince Charming? Or does faithfulness extend into one's dreams, and let's face it whoever one chooses to be one is still oneself deep down? Is it only a harmless fantasy or is it by virtue of being as realistic as real life a slippery slope toward breaking down one's barriers toward unfaithfulness?

      Moving on from sex to murder. In a lucid dream if one is fully aware that a dream is lucid and that the dream character is not the real person, would it be perfectly ok to kill the mental representation of someone one is angry with in real life? If so, would it more likely to help one with anger management: sort of like a pressure cooker letting out steam. Or would it more likely just reinforce the negative feelings making real life violence more likely?

      Is there a difference in the immorality of lucid dream actions based on intensions, so if one's intensions are just to destroy a dream character just because with no intent of real harm done, is that different from intensions to try to do anger management in the hope of releasing steam, versus intensions of perfecting one's techniques with the intensions of someday becoming a real life murderer? And if it is the later, if a person perfects killing techniques in their dreams with full intensions to kill later in real life, if they die before actually killing in real life, would this have been immoral or would they actually need to act upon it in waking life?

      If a man treats women disrespectfully in his dreams or is a racist slave holder in his dreams, if he is a perfect gentleman in real life and does not show his racism, is this man being immoral? And would this be even possible, since our behavior and attitudes in dreams shape and reflect our behavior and attitudes in real life?

      Can a person run the risk of becoming a sociopath due to inappropriate dream behavior or train themselves to be immune to the normal barriers of their morality by killing in dreams and thus making it easier to kill in real life?

      Feel free to either address any of these examples or come up with your own or say anything you wish on the subject of whether or no morality applies to dreams, and if yes, how.

    2. #2
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
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      In short, no, morality doesn't apply to dreams. Any "people" one encounters in a dream is a figment of that person's imagination. They don't actually exist. Go wild.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

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      Of course all people in a dream are a figment of one's imagination. However, in my mind that does not mean that morality does not apply. If one believes that it is immoral to "covet" another married person, one can do that without that other person's presence. Also dreams have consequences on one's psyche, and if one gets into a habit of treating dream characters like shit, it could be a slippery slope toward being in the habit of treating other people like shit in waking life. Although perhaps then it is not so much that the dream itself is immoral, but rather it may reinforce thought patterns that are likely to lead to immoral behavior in waking life?
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      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      In short, no, morality doesn't apply to dreams. Any "people" one encounters in a dream is a figment of that person's imagination. They don't actually exist. Go wild.
      Remember, though, that in lucid dreams, there is a major presence in the dream that is not a figment of your imagination: You.

      Unlike non-lucids, where self-awareness and memory are absent (and so by definition, I think, is morality), you, and all your moral fiber/rules/fears/baggage/what-have-you are there in the dream; like it or not, your whole presence in a LD is part of the package, morality included. Yes, you can do anything you want to do, but what you do you are doing in the full presence of the single most important person in your life: You

      So yeah, it may seem that you can get away with doing anything you want to do during a LD, but can you really do so, given that, in the end, the most important authority to whom you report in waking life is your self, and that self is there in your dream? Isn't being immoral in a dream akin, then, to lying to yourself, or betraying yourself? Won't such actions eventually cause real conflict in waking life (as JoannaB mentioned) because you will be walking around with real, waking-life-quality memories of doing immoral things?

      And what if all the talk about shared dreaming and AP on these forums is true, and the folks you are damaging in your dreams aren't just imagined DC's but something or rather someone else altogether?

      Morality isn't a set of rules to get you into trouble if caught; it is a structure of behavior that allows you to live well with others and yourself. I really don't think dreams ought to be an excuse to dodge that structure, and betray your self.
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      You could replace dreams or lucid dreams with "video games" and the argument would be the same. People do wild shit in Grand Theft Auto yet don't slowly turn into psychopaths. Sure, you might be conscious of your actions, but there's no issue since one would realize the difference between actions and real life and actions flowing around in their brain when they're sleeping.
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      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

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      I think morality applies anywhere that it matters to YOU. I have done things in dreams that I felt guilty or shameful for, so I guess it matters to me. I don't have any set beliefs of right or wrong so it's pretty complicated.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      You could replace dreams or lucid dreams with "video games" and the argument would be the same. People do wild shit in Grand Theft Auto yet don't slowly turn into psychopaths. Sure, you might be conscious of your actions, but there's no issue since one would realize the difference between actions and real life and actions flowing around in their brain when they're sleeping.
      Actually, I would use a similar argument for video games. We're not talking about anyone turning into psycopaths here, I think, just morality. And yeah, spending hours or days finding pleasure in doing very nasty things in a video game could challenge your morality... not as much as a LD could, though, because when playing the game, "You," and your immediate reality, are still quite separate from the schemata of the game. In other words, no matter how precise the details, you can always divorce your actions from the game's environment. In a dream, where the "reality" is not only your invention, but a reflection of you, this moral separation would be very difficult, if not impossible. I hope that made sense!

      I'm not sure I understand your last statement. Are you saying that since no one in waking reality can witness your actions, then anything you do is okay? So it is fine, then, to betray your own sense of right and wrong simply because you won't get caught? Is it okay to do this in waking life too? Did I misunderstand?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Actually, I would use a similar argument for video games. We're not talking about anyone turning into psycopaths here, I think, just morality. And yeah, spending hours or days finding pleasure in doing very nasty things in a video game could challenge your morality... not as much as a LD could, though, because when playing the game, "You," and your immediate reality, are still quite separate from the schemata of the game. In other words, no matter how precise the details, you can always divorce your actions from the game's environment. In a dream, where the "reality" is not only your invention, but a reflection of you, this moral separation would be very difficult, if not impossible. I hope that made sense!

      I'm not sure I understand your last statement. Are you saying that since no one in waking reality can witness your actions, then anything you do is okay? So it is fine, then, to betray your own sense of right and wrong simply because you won't get caught? Is it okay to do this in waking life too? Did I misunderstand?
      The argument is that, like actions in video games, actions in dreams are inconsequential with regard to real life. Nobody is ACTUALLY getting hurt or ACTUALLY dying. In fact they're not even ACTUALLY existing. This is why I think morality doesn't apply. People could spend hours and hours and hours intensely focused and slaughtering people in GTA and walk away realizing that it's just a game and that they would never do that in real life. For me, the same is true for dreams. The immersion might be a little more intense, but you wake up in the morning realizing that whoever you killed was the result of your neurons firing while sleeping. I don't think just because you "design your own levels" in a dream that the effect (of non-effect) is any different. You wake up and divorce your actions from real life. People do it all the time with no ill effects.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

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      Okay. Your logic is sound and very sensible. Except for one thing, which was my main point anyway (I didn't even realize "ill effects" were even being discussed, and, again, honestly don't care):

      The only trouble with all this is that you are diminishing the presence of your self-awareness and waking-life memory in a LD. What about the effect your actions have on you,who will be present in the LD and will remember the events in the dream just like any other waking-life event? Is stepping away from your own (often very vivid and memorable) experience really the same as stepping away from a video game? Can you really rationalize, say, cheating on your spouse in a LD, as just a bunch of neurons firing? At a glance, the answers to those last two questions might be an easy and honest "Yes," but I really think it might be something worth considering...
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Okay. Your logic is sound and very sensible. Except for one thing, which was my main point anyway (I didn't even realize "ill effects" were even being discussed, and, again, honestly don't care):

      The only trouble with all this is that you are diminishing the presence of your self-awareness and waking-life memory in a LD. What about the effect your actions have on you,who will be present in the LD and will remember the events in the dream just like any other waking-life event? Is stepping away from your own (often very vivid and memorable) experience really the same as stepping away from a video game? Can you really rationalize, say, cheating on your spouse in a LD, as just a bunch of neurons firing? At a glance, the answers to those last two questions might be an easy and honest "Yes," but I really think it might be something worth considering...
      Cheating on your spouse in a LD is actually just a bunch of neurons firing, so yes, I can rationalize that. Since we're talking about real world examples vs. dreams, is watching porn while in a relationship with somebody else considered cheating? I mean, you are sort of imaging that you're the one doing the porn star and not the sweaty guy in the video.

      As for the first question(s), I don't think there is much of an effect on the individual, hence why we're all able to walk away from video games, a book, or a LD and have our morality remain intact.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    11. #11
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      ^^ Okay, I give up. I was just pointing out that the presence of your self-awareness in a LD may make a difference because you are witnessing your own actions. So, to avoid us getting stuck in a loop, I'm done.

      For what it's worth: Yup, porn does indeed raise questions of morality, as it always has.

      Best of dreams, and condolences to your unfortunate future DC's!
      Last edited by Sageous; 03-21-2013 at 06:18 AM.
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      I wonder whether to some extent it depends on an individual's tolerance and reaction.

      For me it is complicated, for example, while I enjoy reading serial killer mysteries and at times reading porn which is very different from anything that I would do in real life, but I find movies of similar content too disturbing to watch: it's because with the visuals added it is more life like to me, and thus more disturbing. I immerse myself more in movies than in reading. I am very likely to cry when watching a movie, and very unlikely to do so when reading a book.

      I was wondering whether imagining myself being someone else could make it possible for me to have dream sex with a DC if the DC was not a representation of my spouse as long as the DC was also not a representation of someone else I know in real life. Could my morality remain intact with me not feeling guilty like I was cheating on my spouse, and for me I think the answer is no I could not do it without feeling like I had done something wrong. Even if I imagined myself as someone else, because I would still know I am me, and I would be too immersed. And yet I have no problems reading porn, and no guilt whatsoever.

      To me and my guilt unfortunately the difference between lucid dream and non lucid does not make as much of a difference as it should. I recently had a dream of asking a coworker out on a date, while my husband was out of town. Nothing more happened in the dream: just asking out, no actual date even. This dream was completely non-lucid. And yet when I woke up, I felt guilty and angry with myself. Even though rationally I know I could not control it, and I should not be so hard on my self. but my reaction was not rational, it was a gut reaction stemming from my deep sense of right and wrong. After analyzing this dream, I realized that

      (a) the reason why I had this dream was because a small part of me was secretly attracted to my coworker, so the dream was a reflection of an attraction in waking life which I found immoral. Even though I would never act on it in real life, but my religion says that "coveting" is sinful, and thus controlling one's own thoughts and desires is required to lead a moral life. I was grateful for this dream showing me that I had a problem, so that I could start acting to correct it in waking life.

      (B) I decided that it was very important for my morality what my reaction to this dream was. So even though the dream was non-lucid, once I woke up and remembered it, once I could control my emotions that's when morality applied the most for me. I found it reassuring in hindsight that my initial gut reaction had been to be thoroughly pissed off with myself for having this dream. This showed me that I was very unlikely to actually cheat, that my sense of right and wrong was very much consistent with my moral values. If I had had this same dream, and had woken up happy about it or indifferent, then that would have been an issue from my morality point of view.

      So strangely enough my overreaction to this dream reassured me that my morality is still very much intact, whereas if I had been less disturbed, this would have been more disturbing for me raising red flags. I know I am contradictory, and hard on myself.
      Last edited by JoannaB; 03-21-2013 at 10:52 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoannaB View Post
      thus controlling one's own thoughts and desires is required to lead a moral life.

      This isn't true though. Religions capitalize on the fact that nobody can control their own desires and thoughts. They create these injunctions against uncontrollable thoughts and desires knowing it will wrack the followers with guilt, making them much more controllable.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      This isn't true though. Religions capitalize on the fact that nobody can control their own desires and thoughts. They create these injunctions against uncontrollable thoughts and desires knowing it will wrack the followers with guilt, making them much more controllable.
      Ah, well, to some extent I agree with that. See I grew up Roman Catholic, and thus I may never be rid of the guilt no matter how much I realize that I am being too hard on myself. I am now Episcopalian, and thus less guilty and more tolerant, but let's face it: once a Catholic, always guilty.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoannaB View Post
      I find movies of similar content too disturbing to watch: it's because with the visuals added it is more life like to me, and thus more disturbing. I immerse myself more in movies...
      I guess I lost this kind of immersion in movies pretty early probably because of my interest in filmmaking, which led me to pay a lot of attention to the mechanics behind how the films were made and how the viewers are manipulated to feel certain ways. But I did remain immersed for much longer in music - I remember in high school I was a little scared of some of the more intense 'satantic' music and heavy metal. Heh, in fact I remember in 7th or 8th grade hearing some kids in my class talking in hushed voices about this band called Black Sabbath that they ate bats onstage and were satan worshippers. I freaked out and thought "Wow - I'll never listed to THAT band!"

      Then one Halloween in the 80's I was sitting in my friend's car waiting while he went into the gas station to get some Southern Comfort and a 2-liter of Pepsi there was a program on the radio called Monday Night Metal and they played the first few songs off the just-released Iron Maiden live album Live After Death, and I had a revelation - heavy metal music and 'satanic' music are just like scary movies - it's nothing more than a show put on to freak listeners out. In other words it's nothing more than music dressed up in halloween costumes for flavor. Many years later I was gratified to learn that Ozzy Osbourne had actually had this in mind when he came up with the 'satanic' music for Black Sabbath - he literally decided to make music with the same kind of flavor as horror movies. So at that point I also saw through music as well as movies - to the extent that I could see the workings behind the scenes and was no longer manipulated by it.

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      ^^ Nicely said, Darkmatters, but you left off the clever conclusion that segued us back to the OP ... what the hell?

      Seriously, though: are you implying that dreams, particularly LD's, carry the moral equivalence of movies or music? Or are you saying that guilt is not necessary when doing bad things in dreams, because LD's are simply innocent constructs packed with fictitious meaning? Did I just ask the same question twice?

      I thought you and JoannaB were also headed for agreement that morality may not be necessary in dreams, but it is unavoidable for some of us (especially, but not limited to, Catholics), because our churches have hard-wired guilt into our heads. I don't tend to agree with that. Though I too was born a Catholic, so I can definitely understand the power of Church Authority over the minds of children, I've come to believe that the only moral authority you should be respecting is you... if you are doing a thing that you know in your heart is wrong, then it is wrong -- wherever you are doing it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I thought you and JoannaB were also headed for agreement that morality may not be necessary in dreams, but it is unavoidable for some of us (especially, but not limited to, Catholics), because our churches have hard-wired guilt into our heads. I don't tend to agree with that. Though I too was born a Catholic, so I can definitely understand the power of Church Authority over the minds of children, I've come to believe that the only moral authority you should be respecting is you... if you are doing a thing that you know in your heart is wrong, then it is wrong -- wherever you are doing it.
      Sageous, where the heck did you get the idea that I am heading toward agreement that morality is not necessary in dreams???

      I am the one who is heading dangerously close to thinking that morality applies to non-lucid dreams as well, even though I of course feel guilty over feeling that but that's unavoidable.

      I also over the course of being a member of this forum have moved from the idea that it might possibly be ok for me to someday have dream sex with someone other than my spouse as long as DC partner is not a representation of real life person and as long as I make sure to imagine myself as a different identity to gravitating more toward the position that no even that would not really cut it because I would still be me.

      And I am gravitating away from my initial position that it would be ok for me to kill a dream interpretation of a real person in a lucid dream as part of anger management because that position presupposed that human mind is more like a pressure cooker to let off steam, and did not take enough into account that dream killing a representation of real life person would be more likely to just reinforce negative thinking of mental violence toward them which could lead to worse relations in real life.

      So if anything, I am actually gravitating more to the other extreme. Though Darkmatters is my best bud on the forum, and I acknowledge that he's got a point about religious institutions mind control with guilt, but that does not negate my feeling that dream actions have moral consequences on the dreamer, at least as long as I am the dreamer -- I am unwilling to tell others that they are immoral (being a sinful and confused person myself, unauthorized to judge others), and in fact am willing to agree that the same dream action will not have the same moral consequences for different people (not because I believe that morality is all relative because I do not believe it is, but different people may experience same dream for different reasons with different consequences).

      EDIT: For example you could have the same dream that I had asking a coworker out on a date, and you may even be married, and in your case it may lead to lucidity because you realize how absurd it is, and you may have no guilt over it, and thus for you it may be a moral non-issue whereas for me it is.

      In case you are wondering, I am beginning to believe that morality is neither absolute nor relative but more nuanced and contradictory than that. The person both in waking life and as the dreamer cannot fully understand all consequences of their actions and the consequences of what may appear to be the same action may be very different for different people in different circumstances, but that is because the people and circumstances are different, but not necessarily because cause and effect and right and wrong are different - they may well be absolute but when applied to the relative that may not be apparent. And given that dreams are even more relative than reality: the same dream may be literal for one person and metaphorical for another and have completely different meaning for a third, therefore my current thinking is that it may be difficult or impossible to apply morality the same to the seemingly same dream by different dreamers.
      Last edited by JoannaB; 03-21-2013 at 08:25 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by JoannaB View Post
      Sageous, where the heck did you get the idea that I am heading toward agreement that morality is not necessary in dreams???
      Oops! My bad!

      Sorry about that; I'm not sure how I managed to read what I had suggested into your conversation -- I guess my reading comprehension skills must be well into the toilet today; I probably shouldn't have posted at all today (or got out of bed for that matter).

      That said, Thanks for this thread; this is an extremely under-discussed subject here that I think deserves attention -- and attention that ranges beyond "You can do whatever you want to do in a dream, so there!" -- I hope I haven't derailed anything with my misguided comment.


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      Oh, definitely no problem! And I do appreciate your comments. Also part of the problem may have been that you may have correctly read the vibe that I "like" Darkmatters which of course does not require me to be on the same page as him. Also I am not always on the same page with myself for that matter: I struggle with myself and contradict myself, and both feel very strongly that I am right and that I am wrong at times, which does not make me a waffler but just a complex person who is evolving and may not be easy to understand even for myself, so how can I blame you for misunderstanding me.
      Sageous likes this.

    20. #20
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      Haha Sage, you give me too much credit, assuming I have any kind of coherent stance on the morality of dreams. I really can't answer that one. That's why I restricted myself to only responding to small parts of what Joanna said rather than to any attempt at a real answer.

      One thing I can say to further muddy the waters though - dreams can show us our desires as you suggested Joanna, but they can also show us our fears, both at the same time. Yours may have been some complex mix of both - it may well have just been your mind playing with the elements it found without itself having any kind of clear moral stance - a little desire mixed with a bit of fear and guilt - just throwing it all together and improvising with it.

      In fact, since we know in the case of a moral dilemma (as this dream seems to represent) the sub-c seems to wrestle with it over a period of days showing us different possible outcomes and looking at it from various angles it might be impossible to determine anything about the morality of one particular dream - I'd say the sub-c whips up these little impromptu plays and shows them to us and then waits to see the reaction, which might form only gradually after you wake and process the show through your conscious apparatus - possibly in part by making threads like this one. Then it might cook up a few more scenarios in response to whatever conscious reaction you had - so it could be an ongoing interactive situation rather like a multi-night run of a show where the critics and audience are reacting to it each night which then determines to some extent how the actors will perform the next night. Your overall moral stance might emerge only gradually and possibly even change as it goes.

      Ha - how's that for ambiguity?! (< ambiguous face)

    21. #21
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      I have a problem considering the use of the word sin. I do not believe you can sin in real life and neither believe you can sin in a dream. And if it's a lucid dream, then you bear the knowledge that you can't actually cause any harm. However, if it is a non-lucid dream and you act immorally, that is a good reveal of hidden motivations or immoral impulses you hold within.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    22. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      I have a problem considering the use of the word sin. I do not believe you can sin in real life and neither believe you can sin in a dream. And if it's a lucid dream, then you bear the knowledge that you can't actually cause any harm.
      Did we use the word, "sin," much less consider its use? I saw "sinful" once, but, aside from a moment discussing our roots in Catholic guilt, the word, and its dogmatic implications, was not considered as far as I could tell with a quick sweep of the thread. Are you saying it was implied, that morality -- a sense of right and wrong -- must be directly associated with the word, "sin?". If so, why?

      However, if it is a non-lucid dream and you act immorally, that is a good reveal of hidden motivations or immoral impulses you hold within.
      Makes sense. But is it a good reveal of unconscious motivations, or simply your ability or tendency to interpret the acts in the NLD as immoral? Same impulses, I guess; just sourced in a place slightly more accessible than your unconscious, and also unburdens the unconscious from having to manage your morality.

    23. #23
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      The second part of your post answers the question in the first. It does not matter if your non-lucid actions are immoral unless there's something sinful about being immoral. The very question of asking if morality still matters implies that morality is important.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    24. #24
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      I on purpose had tried to elevate this thread to the broader subject of morality rather than just sin because I wanted to engage non-Christians in this discussion as well, and I think the topic should apply to anyone similarly, and while for many of us morality and religion are tightly interwoven, but they do not have to be. An atheist following a philosophical tradition or even not following any tradition can still have a strong set of values, a strong sense of right and wrong. Now the focus of these values may be different, for example, their strongest moral value could be tolerance and not judging others, or it could be something completely different, but regardless of actual content of moral values the question is would that apply to dreams and how.

      EDIT: But yes, I agree that if you believe morality is important, I would fully expect that your believe extends to dreams, and I would expect that you have no moral conflicts no matter what you choose to do in waking or dream life. not believing that morality matters means that there is no right and wrong for you, so if you feel like killing someone, you would just evaluate it objectively on whether your desire to do so outweighs your desire to stay out of jail, right?
      Last edited by JoannaB; 03-22-2013 at 03:20 PM.

    25. #25
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      No. I wouldn't kill someone because I don't want to live in a society where people murder other people (plus I would probably feel bad for them, plus I believe everything is connected, and the harm you cause ripples back at you). You're still allowed to mature passed psychopathic, consequence based thinking while understanding that right and wrong are purely opinion.
      Last edited by Original Poster; 03-22-2013 at 03:26 PM.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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