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    Thread: Saving Athiests

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      Warning Athiests

      I will attempt it because it's pretty much part of my duty.

      Firstly one of the main arguments is that if there was a god why would god allow suffering.

      So I guess we can begin there. This is a very difficult question to answer, but to be short and brief, suffering is a purification process and a process that will eventually give much more back that the price of it. That's my answer in short, and don't put words in my mouth I know this is not appropriate to individual specific situations but generally in a nutshell to cover that issue that is the answer, and we could expand from that understanding of it into more detail.

      Now my question to atheists is what is your answer or explanation for suffering? How do you account for it?
      Last edited by knight31; 05-06-2013 at 12:58 PM.

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      inb4 this thread's going to get huge.

      Firstly, I don't know if you were implying this, but I'd never use the 'why do we suffer' argument against theism. It doesn't really have anything to do with whether a god exists or not, unless it's being assumed that a god would have to be good by definition. If anything, it could be said that a god who existed would have to be power-hungry, malicious, sadistic, etc. but a different argument would have to be given for a god's existence in the first place. And it couldn't even be argued that a god is evil because it allows suffering, since it could always be explained away by saying "we just don't understand his grand plan." Just as with any logical inconsistencies found in the bible or elsewhere. A Christian will just say that we must not be reading it correctly.

      I don't really understand what you mean when you ask how atheists account for suffering. If an atheist has some other non-theistic spiritual beliefs, then those may come into play. But, if you're referring to atheists who don't accept any supernatural claims that haven't held up to scientific scrutiny, suffering doesn't have to be explained. It just happens. There's no meaning to it other than that which you want to give it. That idea may not be a comfortable one, but I don't see any reason to account for it. That doesn't mean I don't care about it or wouldn't try to prevent it. In fact, an atheist may be more inclined to try to stop suffering than a theist who believed in heaven or some greater purpose, to whom this one life would not be as precious.
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      I find this video the answer for these kinds of threads.

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      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
      MMR (Mental Map Recall)- A whole new way of Recalling and Journaling your dreams
      Trying out MILD? This is how you become skilled at it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dianeva View Post
      inb4 this thread's going to get huge.

      Firstly, I don't know if you were implying this, but I'd never use the 'why do we suffer' argument against theism. It doesn't really have anything to do with whether a god exists or not, unless it's being assumed that a god would have to be good by definition. If anything, it could be said that a god who existed would have to be power-hungry, malicious, sadistic, etc. but a different argument would have to be given for a god's existence in the first place. And it couldn't even be argued that a god is evil because it allows suffering, since it could always be explained away by saying "we just don't understand his grand plan." Just as with any logical inconsistencies found in the bible or elsewhere. A Christian will just say that we must not be reading it correctly.

      I don't really understand what you mean when you ask how atheists account for suffering. If an atheist has some other non-theistic spiritual beliefs, then those may come into play. But, if you're referring to atheists who don't accept any supernatural claims that haven't held up to scientific scrutiny, suffering doesn't have to be explained. It just happens. There's no meaning to it other than that which you want to give it. That idea may not be a comfortable one, but I don't see any reason to account for it. That doesn't mean I don't care about it or wouldn't try to prevent it. In fact, an atheist may be more inclined to try to stop suffering than a theist who believed in heaven or some greater purpose, to whom this one life would not be as precious.
      Hey Dianeva,

      I will go through your post, and I really hope you think about it. Because if I am right, what do you lose? If I am wrong, what do I lose? This is pretty big stakes at your end, that's one of the main reasons I created the thread.

      You made a number of assumptions that are not infallible. For instance if you say god would have to be power hungry, Why?
      But even if you said god was evil, that would mean there is also good. And that's the second assumption that because god allows suffering he must be evil. But is that accurate? not exactly because there could be reasons for suffering (I gave a reason in my post of it to start off) so you couldn't say with confidence that because suffering exists he must be evil.

      Lets have a look at the atheist belief system. Because if an atheist asks why does god allow suffering, why are they asking a question about something they don't believe in? And if they do ask that, what is there reason for it? It's only fair if we are going to compare beliefs that one would not have double standards about it. And I mention it because the main argument for atheist is this suffering question.

      If god doesn't exist, then what does an atheist do then? If we are all going to be nothingness at the end of it, and they claim that life has no purpose, that there is no need to explain things even, then why are they even asking me questions since we are going to both end up in nothingness at the end in their view?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Zoth View Post
      I find this video the answer for these kinds of threads.

      That video makes a claim that there is no Authority in saying that there is The Lord Jesus Christ. However the bible is written testimony of it. So it's not like this is not based on something. If one doesn't believe in that testimony, that's their decision, it's not a decision I would endorse however since they lose eternal inheritance in heaven, which is quite sad if there was a way you could have had more rewards, or even to end up in hell.

      If I'm wrong though, I'm no worse off than what an atheist hopes for or believes in, total nothingness and non existence. And if an Atheist lectures me on moral conduct, who is the provider of that moral judgment and rules, because it couldn't be someone human. To be fair judgement it would have to be something beyond human.

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      Quote Originally Posted by knight31 View Post
      Lets have a look at the atheist belief system. Because if an atheist asks why does god allow suffering, why are they asking a question about something they don't believe in? And if they do ask that, what is there reason for it? It's only fair if we are going to compare beliefs that one would not have double standards about it. And I mention it because the main argument for atheist is this suffering question.
      I think you answered your own question. A atheist doesn't believe in god, so he would never ask him self why god allows suffering. The only reason any atheist here might consider that question, is because you asked it. There isn't really any need to explain suffering. We have neurons in our brain that pick of senses of touch that allow us to interact with the world around us and they allow us to feel pain so that we can hopefully avoid things that are damaging our bodies. For an example, our brain tells us fire is hot so that we can pull our hand away and avoid being burned.

      As for what an atheist does, they do whatever they want. Life is short and if there is no meaning you are free to do with it what you will. You might not exist in the future but you certainly exist at this moment. There is no practical reason to waste your life simply because you don't exist any longer at it's end. You should use what you have, when you have it.
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      Most atheists aren't so because they are in a moral dilemma as to why god would "allow suffering", they became atheists because of the uncertainty revolving god. It isn't the fact that god may allow for human suffering but the fact that no one can truly explain why he would. To be an atheist isn't to strongly oppose the view of a theist, it's just a disbelief in god. Many atheists are in fact really agnostic but just try to stay away from large organized religions.

      As for your question...there is no way to answer your question about god allowing suffering without aiming at a specific religion, I presume we are talking about Christianity right?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      I think you answered your own question. A atheist doesn't believe in god, so he would never ask him self why god allows suffering. The only reason any atheist here might consider that question, is because you asked it. There isn't really any need to explain suffering. We have neurons in our brain that pick of senses of touch that allow us to interact with the world around us and they allow us to feel pain so that we can hopefully avoid things that are damaging our bodies. For an example, our brain tells us fire is hot so that we can pull our hand away and avoid being burned.

      As for what an atheist does, they do whatever they want. Life is short and if there is no meaning you are free to do with it what you will. You might not exist in the future but you certainly exist at this moment. There is no practical reason to waste your life simply because you don't exist any longer at it's end. You should use what you have, when you have it.
      So an atheist does whatever they want because neurons in their brain give them physical senses of things, and then we are dead. So have fun before dieing basically. If you were to ask how DNA or the biological body works to create your consciousness and life however, or what meaning your life or your existence essentially was worth then you would run into a bit of a problem because you don't have answers, or the motivation to find any answers, you just believe you will be dead.

      This is depressing enough in itself, but say I am correct and once you do die you find out you did not accept Jesus Christ. This would be even more depressing because you would then have eternity to consider how you did what you wanted in your life with no real belief or regard for the Lord, and so basically missed out on a short period in which you could have acquired great riches in heaven.

      That sure is a big gamble to be taking with not much to gain.

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      Quote Originally Posted by knight31 View Post
      Hey Dianeva,
      Hey. Thanks for bringing stuff up and for engaging in conversation. Your comments make sense from your end, but I think you've misunderstood a few of the things I said, so I'm going to clarify them.

      Quote Originally Posted by knight31 View Post
      You made a number of assumptions that are not infallible. For instance if you say god would have to be power hungry, Why?
      I didn't say that god would have to be power-hungry. What I said was "If anything, it could be said that a god who existed would have to be power-hungry, malicious, sadistic, etc." I guess I wrote that in a confusing way - sorry about that.

      I was trying to say that the suffering argument is really only trying to argue that God is evil. Although I guess people who use the argument as proof against the existence of a god, are assuming that "if a god exists, it must be good" as a premise.

      But even if you said god was evil, that would mean there is also good.
      When I say 'good' and 'evil' I don't mean objectively, just concepts that we tend to consider good and evil.

      And that's the second assumption that because god allows suffering he must be evil. But is that accurate? not exactly because there could be reasons for suffering (I gave a reason in my post of it to start off) so you couldn't say with confidence that because suffering exists he must be evil.
      I wasn't asserting that because god allows suffering he must be evil. In fact, I said later on: "it couldn't even be argued that a god is evil because it allows suffering, since it could always be explained away by saying 'we just don't understand his grand plan.'" In other words, I agree with you that the 'God wouldn't allow suffering' argument is a bad argument.

      Lets have a look at the atheist belief system. Because if an atheist asks why does god allow suffering, why are they asking a question about something they don't believe in? And if they do ask that, what is there reason for it?
      I think some atheists do use that argument to attempt to disprove God (again, I think it's a bad argument). When someone asks the question, I don't think they're really asking because they want to know. They're asking because they assume you won't be able to give an answer, and that your lack of an answer will make you convert to atheism or something.

      And I mention it because the main argument for atheist is this suffering question.
      I don't know what atheists you've been talking to, but I don't think many serious atheists would use that argument, since it's terrible. And even if they did, it would still be terrible.

      If god doesn't exist, then what does an atheist do then? If we are all going to be nothingness at the end of it, and they claim that life has no purpose, that there is no need to explain things even, then why are they even asking me questions since we are going to both end up in nothingness at the end in their view?
      There's no objective purpose, but I can live with it. Yes, the idea of death sucks, but I'm not going to kill myself or do nothing at all with my life, just because I know it's going to end someday. I'm human, I'm alive, I feel things... I'm predisposed to strive for happiness, to satisfy curiosity, and to achieve other desires. So I just live and try to make the best of it that I can.

      I realize that this is an idea that a lot of religious people have trouble comprehending. I understand it, really, and I know that some people will simply never get over it. People who have lived their entire lives believing in an objective purpose, and thinking that fulfilling that objective purpose is the only reason to live, cannot fathom how a person who doesn't believe in any objective purpose could possibly continue to live.

      I do have those moments in which I'll realize there's no point in anything. It can be depressing at times, but mostly, to be honest, it is just freeing. There is no objective purpose. When we die, everything will disappear for us. And eventually, humanity will die out and none of it will have mattered at all, so there's no need to take everything so seriously. We are simply here, and there is nothing we can do about it but live. What else are we going to do - kill ourselves? What would be the point in that? Why not just live instead, and enjoy these amazing bodies with their abilities to perceive and to feel countless emotions? And even if it were only depressing, it's still most likely the truth to me. And I care about the truth, although I understand some people would choose happiness over truth, and if you're one of those people, that's fine.

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      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor View Post
      Most atheists aren't so because they are in a moral dilemma as to why god would "allow suffering", they became atheists because of the uncertainty revolving god. It isn't the fact that god may allow for human suffering but the fact that no one can truly explain why he would. To be an atheist isn't to strongly oppose the view of a theist, it's just a disbelief in god. Many atheists are in fact really agnostic but just try to stay away from large organized religions.

      As for your question...there is no way to answer your question about god allowing suffering without aiming at a specific religion, I presume we are talking about Christianity right?
      Well it's not entirely true that it couldn't be explained or that one couldn't realize a reason. For instance if someone wanted to commit evil, and god couldn't let them commit any evil. How would god even judge them correctly at the end of it? If he kept stopping them from their own free choice he could never even judge them according to their deeds.

      And yes we are talking about Christianity.

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      Why do you think God would be so petty as to bar someone from Heaven and banish them to the depths of Hell, simply for not believing in Him? I wouldn't do that. My neighbor's pretty high up there on the racist scale, he likens me to scum. Yet I still shovel the guys driveway when it snows since he's too old to do it on his own. I don't lash out at him, I help him because he needs it. Now if I can manage to do this without getting butthurt, surely a higher power would be able to take the high road and let non-believers into Heaven as well, no?

      Unless you believe that God is overly sensitive and bitter, there's no reason for Him to damn someone to hell (just for being an atheist). Knowing that no tangible evidence of Him exists, God can't truly expect everyone to believe in Him - if He's as sensible as you believe He is, then He'd recognize and accept that. Therefore, He can't possibly hold it against someone for not believing in Him... to do so would be a sign of moral failing (bitterness). Not letting an otherwise "good" person into Heaven would be pretty low.

      If God exists, He likely doesn't give a damn about whether or not you believe in him. I've no clue why anyone would think He would. If anything, you're judged by your strength of character, not your faith.

      Quote Originally Posted by knight31 View Post
      And if an Atheist lectures me on moral conduct, who is the provider of that moral judgment and rules, because it couldn't be someone human.
      Quote Originally Posted by http://www.rationalskepticism.org/philosophy/is-empathy-the-basis-of-morality-t18372.html#p676943
      Empathy I would argue is the root origin of morality. Social morality being a more complex idea is probably an enhancement born from fear of rejection from society. Social norms then set the boundaries of morality. Religion is definitely a late comer taking advantage of social morality.

      Edit: to define my terms..

      Empathetic morality - why we don't stab people in the face or kick their dog.
      Social morality - why we don't walk around naked or say fuck when talking to children.
      Last edited by GavinGill; 05-06-2013 at 12:28 AM.
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      *sigh* religion is overrated in my opinion, you don't need religion to tell you what to do or need it in order to have morals plain & simple. people have their own way of living, me i'm not an atheist but my beliefs are on the LHP.

      look at all this without judgment & saying to people that they're gonna suffer because they didn't accept jesus in their life either face to face or you thinking about it & actually read the bible or any other book on the RHP & you'll see that god is just as savage as he can be. to me your god isn't all good like you guys are made to believe, just stop for a moment & actually think for your selves for once then see if you have the same thoughts.

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      Quote Originally Posted by knight31 View Post
      I will attempt it because it's pretty much part of my duty.

      Firstly one of the main arguments is that if there was a god why would god allow suffering.

      So I guess we can begin there. This is a very difficult question to answer, but to be short and brief, suffering is a purification process and a process that will eventually give much more back that the price of it. That's my answer in short, and don't put words in my mouth I know this is not appropriate to individual specific situations but generally in a nutshell to cover that issue that is the answer, and we could expand from that understanding of it into more detail.

      Now my question to atheists is what is your answer or explanation for suffering? How do you account for it?
      Well, i' m not atheist, I' m not christian or whatever either; I' m just that one kind of guy who doesn' t know (or care, I' m going straight to hell anyways) ... BUT ...
      https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...trhaFjswlfBZ4w
      Last edited by Higat; 05-06-2013 at 12:41 AM.

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      Hey Dianeva your welcome.

      In response to your last post.

      If there was a purpose for your life and you rejected it? Then what. If you weren't an atheist for example, does that mean your life has to be doing nothing? When you become a true christian you are said to be doing the most. Because then you are in alignment with god, which is a lot more satisfying then being in alignment with no objective purpose. Doing the best you can may sound okay, but doing the best you can for no lasting reason because your non existence that is imminent, does have a strong air of futility about it.

      If you would accept such a thing, one would assume it wise to think very carefully about such a conclusion and be absolutely certain it's reality. because if it's just assumptions (that's all it can be, you can't prove your atheism scientifically) then you are rejecting a possible saving of your eternal soul. And if you have eternity to kick yourself over it, that's not going to go over to well.

      I'm not choosing happiness over truth, I know what I am saying is true. That's why I'm trying to save you from demise here, like I'm not doing that out of contempt. I really believe you are in danger of compromising your eternal soul (which I believe you do have)

      Those amazing emotions and abilities yo are given, they were given to you by god. It's not an accident.

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      That isn't true, a lot of us look for answers. Many people and especially scientist have a strong desire to find all the answers of the world and figure out how and why everything works and I am among them. If we lack answers, we look for the answers. People who believe in a religion don't look for answers, they just make them up. In fact people who believe in religions are the ones who often have no will to find the truth and learn more of what really causes the world to work. They have their made up answers that explain things, so they don't bother seeking the real answers.

      As for your hypothetical question, Jesus doesn't exist as a god like being and so there is absolutely 0% chance of that ever happening. I am not going to stress over something I know will not happen. We can prove with certainty that the christian religion is made up and isn't true, and so there is no reason to worry.

      There isn't any gamble and there is no risk. The idea that you have nothing to lose and so should worship and obey God is propaganda by the church. What you have to lose is time you have to spent worshiping, you lose money because the church asks stuff from you, and you lose peace of mind because there is a lot of stress worrying about God harming you for not being obedient enough.

      Worshiping the christian god is a waste of time and resources. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain by worshiping him. Death is something bad, and we all want to exist but you can't be so naive. Pretending death doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away, and worshiping a fake religion in hopes of living on after death is pointless. If you want to do something practical sign up to have your brain cryonically preserved. It isn't a guarantee but it sure the heck has better chances of saving you than God.

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      Quote Originally Posted by GavinGill View Post
      Why do you think God would be so petty as to bar someone from Heaven and banish them to the depths of Hell, simply for not believing in Him? I wouldn't do that. My neighbor's pretty high up there on the racist scale, he likens me to scum. Yet I still shovel the guys driveway when it snows since he's too old to do it on his own. I don't lash out at him, I help him because he needs it. Now if I can manage to do this without getting butthurt, surely a higher power would be able to take the high road and let non-believers into Heaven as well, no?
      Gavingill,
      It's not that simple.
      To understand the answer to your question you have to understand what days we are in. During the last days it's not going to be the same lifestyle as you have presently. If you think things are difficult now, things are going to get a lot worse before they get better and before earth becomes heaven. The Anti-christ or Lucifer the beast will actually make you choose a side. So it's going to be impossible to be non decisive about it, if you bow down to the beast, you have forfeited your soul for eternity. These days on earth are designed to test that in you. This test will accur soon. Conflicts in Israel are starting and fulfilling the bible. If you choose the Anti-Christ. You can't take that decision back when The Lord comes to judge everyone. You will either be cast out of the kingdom of god or be in it. It's not like a holiday where you can go back and forth. You are currently not judged. Your soul is in the process of getting judged. When you Die, you have 2 options. In or out. If you make it to the kingdom, you will receive what you have earnt and be saved. If you don't make it, you cannot go through a second judgment because you will not be in the book of life. So I'm not doing this for entertainment, this is real.

      If you happen to die before the judgment on earth, you will still go through a judgment after your death in the same way. However most in this living generation will not pass now, and will see the Lords second coming complete.
      Last edited by knight31; 05-06-2013 at 01:00 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by knight31 View Post
      Hey Dianeva your welcome.

      In response to your last post.

      If there was a purpose for your life and you rejected it? Then what. If you weren't an atheist for example, does that mean your life has to be doing nothing? When you become a true christian you are said to be doing the most. Because then you are in alignment with god, which is a lot more satisfying then being in alignment with no objective purpose. Doing the best you can may sound okay, but doing the best you can for no lasting reason because your non existence that is imminent, does have a strong air of futility about it.

      If you would accept such a thing, one would assume it wise to think very carefully about such a conclusion and be absolutely certain it's reality. because if it's just assumptions (that's all it can be, you can't prove your atheism scientifically) then you are rejecting a possible saving of your eternal soul. And if you have eternity to kick yourself over it, that's not going to go over to well.

      I'm not choosing happiness over truth, I know what I am saying is true. That's why I'm trying to save you from demise here, like I'm not doing that out of contempt. I really believe you are in danger of compromising your eternal soul (which I believe you do have)

      Those amazing emotions and abilities yo are given, they were given to you by god. It's not an accident.
      You'r here to SAVE us? hahaha, hey i think you might be a troll, come on YOU know your religion is not the only true one, & you know that you are not better than us who are "Doomed". just hope you'r a troll

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      I think it's worth pointing out here that you keep using the Pascal's Wager argument, knight31. It basically states that between theists and atheists, atheists have everything to lose if they are wrong in their opinions, whereas theists are safe in whatever case. This argument was thoroughly debunked a long time ago. Firstly, the question must be asked, how is one to know which religion is the true religion? There have been thousands of religions throughout history, with thousands of different interpretations of God/gods and the afterlife, many of which contradict each other. If an atheist were to simply pick one doctrine out of the many and follow that particular set of beliefs, there is a distinct possibility that they could have chosen wrong. If I choose to adopt Christianity as my religion and I later find out that Islam happens to be the one true religion, then I'm just as screwed as any atheist. Furthermore, Pascal's Wager rests on the assumption that the God or gods in charge wouldn't be able to tell that I'm just following their religion out of self-preservation and not true belief. Pretending to believe a certain doctrine is entirely different from truly believing that doctrine, and thus would surely not be counted as belief at all by an all-knowing deity.

      The assertion that theists stand to lose nothing in this life is also open to challenge. Many theists spend a significant chunk of their time on this planet praying, attending masses and poring over religious texts (among other things). Precious time that would all have been wasted if it turns out they were wrong. Non-religious people are not encumbered with this burden and are free to spend their time pursuing their own interests in life. It also has to be noted that intellectual integrity means a lot to many atheists. These are people who believe reason, rationality and the pursuit of truth to be the most important values we can have. Asking them to abandon what reason and evidence has shown to them to be true in favour of unsubstantiated opinions about the world, simply in the hope of saving themselves, would not be a welcome premise to most.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      That isn't true, a lot of us look for answers. Many people and especially scientist have a strong desire to find all the answers of the world and figure out how and why everything works and I am among them. If we lack answers, we look for the answers. People who believe in a religion don't look for answers, they just make them up. In fact people who believe in religions are the ones who often have no will to find the truth and learn more of what really causes the world to work. They have their made up answers that explain things, so they don't bother seeking the real answers.

      As for your hypothetical question, Jesus doesn't exist as a god like being and so there is absolutely 0% chance of that ever happening. I am not going to stress over something I know will not happen. We can prove with certainty that the christian religion is made up and isn't true, and so there is no reason to worry.

      There isn't any gamble and there is no risk. The idea that you have nothing to lose and so should worship and obey God is propaganda by the church. What you have to lose is time you have to spent worshiping, you lose money because the church asks stuff from you, and you lose peace of mind because there is a lot of stress worrying about God harming you for not being obedient enough.

      Worshiping the christian god is a waste of time and resources. You have everything to lose and nothing to gain by worshiping him. Death is something bad, and we all want to exist but you can't be so naive. Pretending death doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away, and worshiping a fake religion in hopes of living on after death is pointless. If you want to do something practical sign up to have your brain cryonically preserved. It isn't a guarantee but it sure the heck has better chances of saving you than God.
      You will actually be proved wrong about your statements here in the second coming. So you should think carefully what you say as it's all being recorded.
      It's not true that you can disprove it, You could only disprove it after you know for sure the second coming didn't happen. However a lot of the bible prophecy is fulfilled and it keeps getting fulfilled. The next major fulfillment I believe that is near is going to be the RFID chip. Which is the chip they want to insert in you to buy and sell things. That in the bible is referenced that is known as the mark of the beast. And they are already trying to pass it.

      Quote Originally Posted by PeterF View Post
      You'r here to SAVE us? hahaha, hey i think you might be a troll, come on YOU know your religion is not the only true one, & you know that you are not better than us who are "Doomed". just hope you'r a troll
      And if I'm not a troll and what I am saying is true? In that case you could be in more danger of getting doomed because I warned you beforehand.
      Last edited by gab; 05-06-2013 at 05:35 PM. Reason: posts merged

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      Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper View Post
      I think it's worth pointing out here that you keep using the Pascal's Wager argument, knight31. It basically states that between theists and atheists, atheists have everything to lose if they are wrong in their opinions, whereas theists are safe in whatever case. This argument was thoroughly debunked a long time ago. Firstly, the question must be asked, how is one to know which religion is the true religion? There have been thousands of religions throughout history, with thousands of different interpretations of God/gods and the afterlife, many of which contradict each other. If an atheist were to simply pick one doctrine out of the many and follow that particular set of beliefs, there is a distinct possibility that they could have chosen wrong. If I choose to adopt Christianity as my religion and I later find out that Islam happens to be the one true religion, then I'm just as screwed as any atheist. Furthermore, Pascal's Wager rests on the assumption that the God or gods in charge wouldn't be able to tell that I'm just following their religion out of self-preservation and not true belief. Pretending to believe a certain doctrine is entirely different from truly believing that doctrine, and thus would surely not be counted as belief at all by an all-knowing deity.

      The assertion that theists stand to lose nothing in this life is also open to challenge. Many theists spend a significant chunk of their time on this planet praying, attending masses and poring over religious texts (among other things). Precious time that would all have been wasted if it turns out they were wrong. Non-religious people are not encumbered with this burden and are free to spend their time pursuing their own interests in life. It also has to be noted that intellectual integrity means a lot to many atheists. These are people who believe reason, rationality and the pursuit of truth to be the most important values we can have. Asking them to abandon what reason and evidence has shown to them to be true in favour of unsubstantiated opinions about the world, simply in the hope of saving themselves, would not be a welcome premise to most.
      The bible is the only historical testimony to be able to accurately predict the birth of Jesus Christ and crucifiction before it happened. It is the only testimony that foretold of the re-construction of Israel. The book contains 30% prophecy and is clearly stated that it is the word of god.

      If you study your history, you will find there is only one other religion other than Christianity, and that is Babylonian. Strangely enough this is Lucifers religion that he has broken up into many different parts, and plans to unify under the banner of "peace, and tolerance" by bringing his religions together under a "new world order". In the last days the gospel will start to be preached for real, as I am now. And It will be hated, because it will not fall under the banner of Lucifer's relative truth religions.

      You have the book the word of god, you have my warning, and the rest is up to you. I'm just trying to get you to realize this is real. The bible states in the end times when the Lord comes, nations will mourn, and they will be mourning because they will realize they Rejected Christ, and then he's here to claim his throne. Think how well that will go down. And lucifer is to be cast out of the earth, just as he was cast out of heaven.
      Last edited by knight31; 05-06-2013 at 01:31 AM.

    21. #21
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      Well, this is a shame. Judging from your replies in this thread, it's clear you're either trolling or so totally set in your beliefs that no rational argument is going to convince you otherwise. In either case, I see continuing this debate as a waste of time. So, in the words of the dragons...

      dutchraptor likes this.

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      me? lol, tbh i don't really care much for religion, as long as i'm happy & nobody gets hurt i'm good! but if i get a chance to mess around with a few fellows then why not?

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      Quote Originally Posted by PeterF View Post
      me? lol, tbh i don't really care much for religion, as long as i'm happy & nobody gets hurt i'm good! but if i get a chance to mess around with a few fellows then why not?
      Without love of doing good, What does one have left?

      With messing around, Does one not make a mess?

      Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper View Post
      Well, this is a shame. Judging from your replies in this thread, it's clear you're either trolling or so totally set in your beliefs that no rational argument is going to convince you otherwise. In either case, I see continuing this debate as a waste of time. So, in the words of the dragons...

      (i'm out gif)
      Dragons? Why? I know the book of Revelations speaks of dragons or one dragon.

      Quote Originally Posted by knight31 View Post
      If you study your history, you will find there is only one other religion other than Christianity, and that is Babylonian. Strangely enough this is Lucifers religion that he has broken up into many different parts, and plans to unify under the banner of "peace, and tolerance" by bringing his religions together under a "new world order". In the last days the gospel will start to be preached for real, as I am now. And It will be hated, because it will not fall under the banner of Lucifer's relative truth religions.
      I do believe there's truth, and lies. Light, and darkness. Good, and evil.

      And I remember what I was like before I started reading the Bible, But perhaps not all of it; I was miserable, Hateful, Not forgiving, Couldn't go to sleep early due to a computer addiction and I stared at adulterous photographs and drawings to fantasize and "M" which would cause me to wake up at night, Sometimes several times per night. What was I, A Zombie? It doesn't stop there but I think I should for the moment.
      Last edited by 101Volts; 05-06-2013 at 03:24 AM.

    24. #24
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      Knight, you're using a fear based method to try to scare atheists into believing God. The argument 'believe in God to avoid an eternity of suffering' just doesn't work. You aren't explaining why any God would send a human into eternal suffering for not realizing a truth they can't see. You aren't explaining why an atheist should be punished for not accepting the bible-with which we know was put together and edited by an organization that wanted power.

      Here are some valid logical reasons why no one, including christians, should give a shit for what the catholic church has to say. But first you have to understand pre-church christians.
      1. they did not have a central church
      2. they did not have any official priesthood, its been said even females took up priestly positions
      3. there was no official 'bible', they only had several holy texts
      4. they believed the "keys" to heaven is free to anyone
      5. membership to a church was not required to gain access to heaven because there was no official church

      Now some very malicious people realized that these early christians could not be politically controlled. How can you politically control someone who is free because the kingdom to heaven is within them? (pssst. Jesus was an ancient hippie and so were his followers-they kinda rejected political authority because no political authority has god given power of their soul)

      These malicious men decided to create a formal central church. This church would have a priesthood that followed political dynamics instead of spiritual ones. The head of the church was literally the voice of God on earth-which is nothing that Jesus taught. And the church itself would be the keys to heaven. This meant that those who did not comply with the church's authority were damned to hell. This also made it valid to murder those who did not comply with the church because they were already damned by God.

      How did they go about controlling early christians which did not recognize a central church (or political power?) door to door salesmanship? No. By mass murder.

      The catholic church was formed by murdering those who did not comply. The entire gnostic line of christianity, which is one of the oldest, was nearly written out of history. These very same people, who justify the murder of those who did not comply, would be the ones who dictated what goes in the bible.

      The result of this institution was:
      1. the justification of untold horrors of different beliefs because according to the church "they're already damned"
      2. the lack of freedom, church members did not have guarantee access to heaven, they must obey and submit to the church
      3. dogmatic fear based teachings "obey, submit or burn in hell"
      4. a complete denial of Jesus teaching that heaven is within - (and all that heaven is, truth, love, God)
      5. replaced by a lie- that truth is not within you...!!! that there is only one truth in this world........a book....a book is the only truth. a book edited by the same people justifying murder.

      Do yourself a favor and give up the need to save atheists from an eternity of damnation. Accept a loving God isn't damning anyone. Reject the lies of the catholic church.

      Now.

      If you don't believe me. Then I dare you. Find me where Jesus says "those who do not believe in God will suffer in hell for eternity."
      Last edited by juroara; 05-06-2013 at 03:13 AM.

    25. #25
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      a thousand likes for juroara!!!!!!!!

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