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    Thread: Split from: DV Christians Unite! (Christian Only Thread)

    1. #251
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I assume you guys are having fun, and are both pretty sure that you'll never convince the other of anything, which is cool. But isn't this conversation pretty much moot anyway? Neither of you actually believe that there is a thing called logic, do you? Isn't logic simply a tool for reasoning and communication? A very important tool, yes, but just as there are no actual numbers or theories floating in some cloud of physical knowledge, there is no actual material called logic. Right?
      That's definitely a statement which would require a further analysis of your terms. You're using 'thing' synonymously with 'material', but as far as I can tell by your use of the words, it seems you would concede that, for instance, gravity is a thing but gravity is not material. And what distinguishes 'material' from 'theories'? When you get down to the quantum level which underlies objects, the distinction becomes very questionable to me.

      For these reasons I prefer to throw out ambiguous terms such as 'thing', 'material', 'exists', and even 'logic'. You can substitute the proposition "logic exists" with the statement that "reasoning can be relied on to lead us to correct conclusions". This is what I mean. Hopefully you agree that this is a much less ambiguous and more substantive statement.

      I'll leave it for Noogah to say whether he means the same thing. I didn't find his "definition" sufficient to understand what he is referring to.

    2. #252
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      Sigh.

      Never mind. You know exactly what I meant, my point was clear, and I have no interest in participating in the endless word games you guys like to play. Forget I said anything.
      Last edited by Sageous; 09-13-2013 at 05:43 AM.

    3. #253
      Xei
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      I did not know what you meant and that's why I provided my own phrasing and asked whether you agreed. All I have given you is sincerity and earnest attempts at clarity and all I ever seem to receive in return are these cynical, rude messages with no intent to further the discussion, as if I had personally offended you. I don't see how my comments could be construed as offensive and I've even explicitly told you that I don't mean to insult or criticise - I normally like your posts. But if you really can't read my posts as well-intentioned attempts at discussion then please add me to your ignore list.

    4. #254
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      I never took offense or intended any rudeness, Xei; that is the truth.

      I simply saw that a basically global rhetorical statement that I had made was being dissected word-for-word, and I had no interest in spending post after post defining or defending my terms, especially because those terms were quite obvious when I wrote them, and are still obvious upon rereading my post. Extended discussion of what I said was simply not necessary to me, and not what I wanted to do. I was not offended by your attempt to do so; I think I just don't belong on this thread.

      I'm sorry my disinterest in defining the word "thing" bothers you, Xei, and I had no idea I was being insulting by choosing not to spend hours semantically circling with you and Noogah around a subject that means very little to me. Well-intentioned as your need to discuss and break down obvious statements may be, I simply don't have time. I honestly can't even see how that is insulting; perhaps you are reading much more into what I said than the few simple words I wrote? Oh, And since I've read many of your posts I cannot believe that you were not bright enough to immediately understand exactly what I was saying, what I meant, and even why I said it; to tell me otherwise is to insult your own intelligence.

      You're one of the more interesting people on this site, Xei, I would never ignore you, and likely will never be offended or insulted by you. Again, if I've offended, or offend still, I hope you can forgive my missteps. They were utterly unintentional.

      Finally, all apologies to you and Noogah; I always seem to get into trouble when I stray from the dreaming threads; I think I'm just not built for this stuff.

      P.S.: To be fair, yes, I can agree with this:

      You can substitute the proposition "logic exists" with the statement that "reasoning can be relied on to lead us to correct conclusions". This is what I mean. Hopefully you agree that this is a much less ambiguous and more substantive statement.
      Last edited by Sageous; 09-13-2013 at 06:25 AM.

    5. #255
      Xei
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      Of course, you're at perfect liberty to opt out of a conversation you're not invested in. That's not what I found to be unfriendly - it was just the tone of your post, which I think you softened when you edited it a little while after. Don't worry, I wasn't insulted by anything - your actual point was perfectly cogent. It's just the way you said it felt combative, in reply to what I intended to be a substantive, amicable response.

      To try to clarify what that response actually was: your point was that me and Noogah were arguing about the "existence of logic", when such a question could be described as patently nonsensical or false. My reply, which I think addresses the heart of what you were saying and was not at all a "dissection" in the sense of being a critical and fastidious waste of time, was to explain that for my part at least, I was not discussing such a question; rather, what I meant by "logic exists" is that human reasoning is a reliable activity. I think that this question is markedly different from the one you had in mind, and moreover, an important and valid one.

    6. #256
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      ^^ Well said. And yeah, I suppose my (initial) response to you was an overreaction and perhaps slightly judgmental; my bad!

      Now that I think of it, my original "rock/hard place" post (which I wrote and deleted several times before foolishly deciding to post) should have been even more succinct: Instead of bringing up the "logic exists" argument or mentioning "the word" at all, I should have just stuck to asking how you find the perseverance (and the time!) to say the same things to each other almost 50 times each, with I assume the full knowledge that the other guy will never accept, understand, or even acknowledge the validity of your repeated points. That way I wouldn't have seen what I had considered secondary points be discussed at all, and you guys would likely have just smiled and moved on. Oh well, hindsight is a helluva thing.

      Thanks for understanding

    7. #257
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei
      for instance, gravity is a thing but gravity is not material.
      I'd like to point out that even gravity is subject to the laws of reason, so while your analogy is true insofar as it concerns things that are immaterial, gravity is still not something of the same kind as logic. Logic is above even gravity, or any of the laws of nature.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei
      I'll leave it for Noogah to say whether he means the same thing. I didn't find his "definition" sufficient to understand what he is referring to.
      I am unsure if this was a mere technicality you meant to discuss with Sageous, or whether you mean this to be our continued avenue of discussion.

      In my last post, I listed what I consider to be a few obvious attributes of LOGIC, whatever else it may be.

      And , if nothing more, I am sure that we will both agree the laws of logic (and of reason) are truths, and furthermore, truths about truths.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous
      to say the same things to each other almost 50 times each, with I assume the full knowledge that the other guy will never accept, understand, or even acknowledge the validity of your repeated points.
      I, for one, am here to defend the truth. That is why I will keep coming back, even if the discussion ever feels, to me, monotonous.

      HOWEVER, to Xei's credit, I don't personally feel like we have been saying the same things at all. I daresay I have enjoyed my conversation with him, precisely because he has continued to think deeply on this subject, and has therefore made for a very thought-provoking discussion.

      But in the end, it certainly isn't all fun, because I believe that Xei believes a lie, and a damning lie as well. I pray for him every day. This is not mere theoretical bluster - this is about our lives, and indeed about life itself. I could never in good conscience abandon it.
      Last edited by Noogah; 09-15-2013 at 02:40 AM.
      John 3:16

      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    8. #258
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      Goddamn another thread with endless discussions. I read somewhere that Jesus was high on weed when he died.

    9. #259
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      ^^ Fine.

      Now I can't shake the image of Mary jamming a lit fatty on the end of a long stick so Jesus could toke up (his hands were a bit busy at the time).

      Thanks for sharing.


    10. #260
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      Are you sure that wasn't an obituary about an Hispanic pothead named Jesús?
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