Thread: Does a mental disabled person accumulate karma ?

Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia

I'm not viewing karma in any terms other than "the associations of actions to people" (or souls or minds or whatever else you want). The only thing I'm trying to discuss is which people, in a just system (important), can rightfully have any of their actions associated to them. It doesn't even matter if that association is through karma or not.

The intoxication analogy is flawed and I'm surprised you'd even bring it up. The disabled don't choose their state of rational incapability, those who get drunk do. The promotion of cool-headedness and control of your own emotions says enough for the other, I think (though maybe you disagree).

Personally speaking, I'd like to think that there's a set "cost" associated with going beyond your means in intoxication (getting so drunk you're no longer "you"). What you've actually done isn't your fault, but it was entirely your decision to put yourself into the situation that made you do it. You could also do nothing wrong at all while intoxicated, but gain negative karma simply for putting yourself into that risky situation in the first place. Just my interpretations of things, though, only putting it out there. I don't really want to discuss it.

There's not really negative or positive karma. Karma is the natural consequence of your actions, whether it's negative or positive is subjective. It is poetic justice, in a sense, but that doesn't mean it lacks the potential for cruelty. You can shout "Forgive them Karma for they know not what they do" all you want, but what is sowed must be reaped. What you accumulate for drinking, by itself, is the toxins you put into your system. What you accumulate for losing mental clarity is the risk that you may commit an action with unpreferable consequences. Life is, after all, a gamble, and the results are not written in stone. What you sow while black out drunk, you sow not simply because you chose to put yourself in that position but because you sowed it, that's it. Actions create consequences, not intent. You can have the best intentions ever when, for example, you decide to burn homosexuals at the stake and release them from their sin. Everything you know could teach you that's the right thing to do. Was it your choice to get drunk on lies, rather than alcohol? You seem to be claiming retarded people are not responsible for their actions, but people who are otherwise handicapped from clear thinking still are, for some reason or another.



Have you ever, in your life, made a mistake because you weren't thinking clearly? Let's start there.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

There's not really negative or positive karma. Karma is the natural consequence of your actions, whether it's negative or positive is subjective. It is poetic justice, in a sense, but that doesn't mean it lacks the potential for cruelty. You can shout "Forgive them Karma for they know not what they do" all you want, but what is sowed must be reaped. What you accumulate for drinking, by itself, is the toxins you put into your system. What you accumulate for losing mental clarity is the risk that you may commit an action with unpreferable consequences. Life is, after all, a gamble, and the results are not written in stone. What you sow while black out drunk, you sow not simply because you chose to put yourself in that position but because you sowed it, that's it. Actions create consequences, not intent. You can have the best intentions ever when, for example, you decide to burn homosexuals at the stake and release them from their sin. Everything you know could teach you that's the right thing to do. Was it your choice to get drunk on lies, rather than alcohol? You seem to be claiming retarded people are not responsible for their actions, but people who are otherwise handicapped from clear thinking still are, for some reason or another.



Have you ever, in your life, made a mistake because you weren't thinking clearly? Let's start there.

We're no longer talking about the same thing. I'm trying to discuss the ethical implications of the matter. It matters more practically for a legal system, as you said in the form of the insanity defense, but it's a great spiritual question too. My question is only, assuming any system of judgment or the determining of an action's value is perfectly just, if it's proper to assume that those who cannot know better (and if you want to bring in more determiners, those who did not willingly and knowingly enter the situation that made them not know better) are held accountable for their actions by the system.

You're trying to bring it back to your definition of karma and I don't know why. The questions stands no matter what you call the system, as long as you assume that the system is completely just.

I'm not claiming anything about retarded people at the moment. I'm asking questions.

The universe is not required to follow your subjective philosophy on justice, dude. Karma doesn't translate to spiritual justice, and it is not an eastern version of heaven/hell. Karma translates to doing, or action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Hinduism

"Karma" literally means "deed" or "act", and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction, which Hindus believe governs all consciousness. Karma is not fate, for we act with what can be described as a conditioned free will creating our own destinies. According to the Vedas, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determine our future. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction.

The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action, but its burden lies in the action itself, whether or not an ethics court deems the actor responsible for their actions.

Originally Posted by VagalTone

I did already said i don't have beliefs. I simply wanna know what guys like the Dalai Lama think. You know there is a field of study called religious studies ? That's my purpose

If you want to know, check out the Dalai Lama's book on Karma

http://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Life-T...938857&sr=1-30

BR
Carl

Thanks Carl !

You know this is something i would like to have a conversation about, you can't talk with a book

Oh, i have so many books to read, i don't even know where to begin.
I really enjoy tibetan buddhism philosophy and art.

My answer to the OP:

Hell yes mentally disabled people accumulate karma. In fact, they are mentally disabled because of karma in the first place. As long as the causes keep manifesting the effects will keep manifesting and generate new causes. Only wisdom can transcend karma, and a mentally disabled person is unlikely to have the wisdom to transcend karma. But then it depends on what kind of "disability" we are talking about? If we are talking about somebody who has schizophrenic tendencies but is really working very hard to keep them in line with the dharma, to cultivate loving-kindness and mindfulness, then their limitations could in fact become their assets.

There is a big difference between the Roman Catholic concept of guilt and the Buddhist concept of karma. Growing up as a Roman Catholic I learned a lot about guilt, and it's still there in my subconscious reactions (and that's my karma ).

I really liked Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's example explaining karma in the book The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep. He said imagine a man whose parents fought a lot verbally when he was a child, and then as an adult he passes a house while walking and hears a husband and wife arguing, and so then that triggers his emotional memory of his parents fighting, and that night this man dreams of having a fight with his wife, and he wakes up angry with his wife, even though she did not do anything wrong. That's karma at work.

And yes, a mentally disabled person could have this experience. It's not a question of responsibility and accountability, but a question of cause and effect, of grasping to the past and not letting go of the negative influences so that they spoil the present.

Right, It is not as if the mentally disabled person is being punished for something he did exactly, or that it is his fault that he is mentally disabled and doesn't deserve our compassion. It is simply that there is a chain of cause and effect that lead to him being mentally disabled. No need for guilt. Haha I have had that same experience of dreaming of having a fight with my wife and waking up angry at her even though she didn't do anything wrong. Luckily I remembered my dream and realized that she did not deserve for me to be angry with her.

In 1970 mum read to me what Lobsang Rampa wrote about what the purpose of kama is. I was 10.

From what I remember, he said that untill we clock-up some bad kama we learn nothing because at this stage (earth stage) we can only learn and grow spiritually through suffering. He said that this is not the case elsewhere but here in the earth school we dont grow without suffering.

So

He said when we first decend into this "veil-of-tears" (the planet earth) the first incarnation is gentle because we haven't done anything to regret.

But

When we are coming back for round two we can organize and use the evil we did in round one to learn what it felt like for those we wronged. And so the suffering and learning and growing begins.