Non duality and Dreaming

[VagalTone]

Dreaming, and life in general, seems to be most of the time an experience of duality. Is non duality an acceptable mindset or perspective ? Or Just a fantasy? What would be the effects in terms of lucidity of a stable and persistent non dual perspective ?

[Original Poster]

I think lucidity would increase but I don't have a stable nondual perspective so I can't say for certain. It seems, from the flashes of experience of nonduality I get, that it increases my clarity.

[NonDualistic]

Duality and non-duality .... Is still duality Integration is that which swallows the two into one view... I look upon my dreams as an extension of myself Every component that arises is a representation.. Of some aspect of myself in some way The movement revealing .. Teaching.. Archetypes arise.. Carrying the same meaning.. From one dream to another.. The language of metaphor Speaking clearly Revealing If this sort of thing is what you mean by non-duality in dreaming, then I can say a few things from my own experience. Like OP said, clarity increases, as does awareness. I really do not cultivate lucidity to make use of a dream to consciously do things while in the dream. I witness the dream, sometimes as a participant view, sometimes as a non participant. The lucidity that does arise is seemingly self arising. It can be distinct such as realizing this is a dream outright, other times it is more subtle, like realizing the meaning of something being presented within dream, while still dreaming. Always, anymore, There seems a calmness within me while dreaming, a subtle knowing that all presented is part of me, me beyond the notion of body/person/persona. I wake calm, and my body is well rested and relaxed the next morning. The lucidity as I experience it, seems to have different levels or tiers that tie together. That is my experience at this point...as to stable and persistent, well .. not there yet, so its a good bet that there's more yet to experience.

[Presence333]

Dreaming, and life in general, seems to be most of the time an experience of duality. Is non duality an acceptable mindset or perspective ? Or Just a fantasy? What would be the effects in terms of lucidity of a stable and persistent non dual perspective ? The notion of duality/non-duality have always seemed a bit unstable and murky for me. A bit silly if you look at it too closely. I would imagine the experience of a dream that would be deemed non-dual would be like this: you're simple non-existent, yet aware, and you are fully absorbed in the details of the dream. That does not seem lucid at all. Thus I'm led to believe that duality is necessary to initiate lucidity. One has to be able to have that conscious ability to discern between one thing and another. Dreamer and dream. Dream reality and waking reality. Lucid awareness and sleepy awareness. But to sustain it seems to require the transcendence of duality....but there's the murky part...does one truly transcend the essence of duality, or does he merely shed the superficial duality and discover a deeper level of duality that is simply out of his conscious recognition? Ex. Perception and perceiver, perceiver and awareness, awareness and nothingness, etc.

[VagalTone]

If i understand dream yoga teachings correctly, a very stable non dual realization is incompatible with dreaming as we know it. So, yes, it may be the case that some degree of duality is necessary to keep dreaming.

[NonDualistic]

If i understand dream yoga teachings correctly, a very stable non dual realization is incompatible with dreaming as we know it. So, yes, it may be the case that some degree of duality is necessary to keep dreaming. This is the impression I get from reading the teachings of dream practice related to Dzogchen. It says that eventually dreams cease all together at some point in the practice. Of course at that point, one could ask what purpose would there be in continued dreaming?

[kilham]

In tibetan practices as in advanced lucid dreamers experiences, nonduality is the realization/becoming of pure consciousness, therefore is incompatible with dreaming (lucid or not). I believe it's not fantasy but an actual hmmm... becoming. Also they talk about the light, being just light, no thoughts, feelings or "me". But certainly lucid dreaming can be a gate for it.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

Dream is just more phenomena, just like life. According to Buddhism, dual consciousness of objective phenomena and a subjective perceiver is the result of ignorance. Consciousness is always "consciousness of"... If there are no sensations to be aware of, one loses consciousness. Dreamers might be able to understand this: There are at least 6 consciousnesses (some schools of Buddhism split the 6th into three, making 8 altogether): one consciousness for each sense and one for the mind (the 6th sense).... When the eye makes contact with a visual object the eye consciousness arises. When the ear makes contact with an object (sound) ear consciousness arises... etc... Same with the mind, when the mind makes contact with a mental object (a thought, idea, concept, etc..) the mental consciousness arises.... Each consciousness is independent of the other consciousnesses... hence a blind person can still hear, a deaf person can still see. But one cannot see sounds or hear colors, as such.... If somebody doesn't have a working eyeball but there is a color to see, still the eye consciousness won't arise. Or, if the eye works fine but there is nothing to see, the eye consciousness won't arise. So, what is the point of all of this? This requires no subject, no witness, no self, to function. Without a subject there is no object. Dual consciousness depends on the illusion of a self to work. Now it becomes hard for the average person to understand, but perhaps dreamers can understand this: is a Buddha unconscious? Not exactly.... When consciousness fades because of "lucidity" (knowing that the self is simply a dream character) it 'turns into' or is 'replaced by' "prajna" or "rigpa" (wisdom or primordial awareness respectively) These are fancy words, but try to see what these words are pointing at. When we do not attend to dualistic phenomena, when our conceptual mind is silent, and we are not blinded by what we see, we can see things for how they really are... which is emptiness.... The standard analogy is that appearances are like reflections on the mirror, yet the mirror is not affected by ugly or beautiful reflections. The reflections leave no trace. If we do not attend to the reflections, then we can see the surface of the mirror itself... But can you see the surface of a mirror? lol... The surface of the mirror is inseparable from the reflections, yet unaffected without a trace... This is the emptiness of appearances... So.... these appearances seen from the point of view of prajna or vidya or rigpa,,, are spontaneous self perfected self liberated expressions of the clear lucidity of the Buddha Mind....Seen from the point of view of the ordinary unlucid sentient being, they are seen to be inherently real. Without lucidity appearances are subject to cause and effect, every event and every phenomena is dependent on a beginningless chain of cause and effect. This is karma. Karma keeps the phenomena going. Dreams etc. depend on karma. Once the truth of nondual awareness is realized, lucidity is attained, there is no cause and effect. Cause and effect (karma) is seen to be an illusion, a plot device in the unlucid dream.... Without karma to keep things going, the dreams run out of batteries.... That is why the Buddha doesn't dream. Also, the Buddha doesn't even sleep! So how can he dream? The Buddha means "the awakened one". Sleep is unconsciousness/ignorance... Buddhas do not sleep like animals.... So what takes the place of all this delusional appearances of dreams and dualistic waking life? Reality! The clear lucidity of mind, the five colors. The Five colors are what we are mistakenly perceiving as this world here. Once we see the rainbow nature of reality, out five elements that make up our experience of the world turn into the five colors and we walk into a new world of rainbows.... From the point of view of others left here, our physical body shrinks and disappears leaving behind fingernails and hair and we attain the "rainbow body" and are free to fly off to a pure land of our own creation, or stick around and guide others here to attain Buddhahood. But until then.... we will have dualistic dreams and even nondualistic dreams, because it takes some time for all of our karma to unwind. There are practices to burn off karma faster... but for the most part even after attaining lucidity enlightenment we still appear like ordinary people and get moody, and fall off the wagon at times, generate more karma by accident by losing lucidity... But deep down we know who we really are, which is formless awareness.... So in a non-dual experience, whether a dream or otherwise, is summed up by this quote from the Buddha, giving advice to a monk named Bahiya: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." "In seeing, only the seen...."

[VagalTone]

Thank you Dannon ! Today i was reflecting on direct experience before checking DV and your post was a very nice surprise to me. Sometimes it just happens that i open a book and find some clarification on what i was reflecting or thinking before.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

I would like to talk about the non-dual awareness.... Like I said, awareness is usually 'awareness of...' What happens when the subject/object duality collapses? How can one function when one is not aware of objects or self yet one is crystal clear? There is a kind of a-perception.... the "KNOWING" of awareness overshadows the contents of awareness. Just as the horizon is the meeting of sky and ocean (when at sea) and is always at eye-level... KNOWING is the meeting of subject and object.... This KNOWING is called 'rigpa' in Tibetan or 'Vidya' in Sanskrit. How do we know we are aware? This is the mystery of enlightenment. That knowing is itself enlightenment. Not the awareness.... but the 'knowing' that you are aware. Who is it that 'knows' that you are aware? Who are you? lol.... It cannot be found, it is not hiding away behind obscurations or layers of witnesses or mind stacked one upon the other.... those are thoughts. It is right there, but nowhere to be found. This 'knowing' cannot be grasped. But it can be allowed to be effortlessly everywhere. It is your true nature, the enlightened primordial Buddha-mind. The original face.... This is lucidity. The same lucidity that awakens in a dream and recognizes the dream for what it is. It is not some great mystery. But it is what the Buddha discovered sitting under his tree. And we are all united in this, we all share this same 'knowing'. Unite with this knowing wisdom non-dually and effortlessly. See how effortless it is to be your true nature? That which by knowing that you are aware in this moment, how simple! It is the timeless primordial Buddha Samantabhadra who is one with space: Samantabhadra.jpg

[VagalTone]

Is it possible there is just Experience, with no separate experience-er?

[Dannon Oneironaut]

I would say so! Let me ask you a leading question: Is it possible that there is no such thing as awareness, but that it is just the radiance of the vividness of appearances?