Any christians here?

**Sageous** · 06-13-2014 12:51 AM

^^ True.

**StephL** · 06-13-2014 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sageous

... and another lingering facet of my past still cringes in anticipation of the lightning bolt from Heaven that never comes!

That's what catholic indoctrination in childhood does to people.
Disgusting.
Sorry for ya - but you're too much of a seeker to keep being deceived!

**Sageous** · 06-13-2014 01:57 AM

^^ I can't argue with that...but keep in mind that to me that bit was the least important bit of my post.

**StephL** · 06-13-2014 02:18 AM

I know this - I was about to answer more in depth, actually - there is much, that I could say - but I don't have the energy right now. It is noted, though - and since Sensei is at work at the moment - I might get back to your thought experiment at a later point.
I love this part:

Originally Posted by Sageous

... but it could explain why God really tossed Adam & Eve out of the Garden: "What? You're asking me a question? That's not right! Get out of here so I can try again! Honey, where's my clay?".

**Sensei** · 06-13-2014 10:03 PM

I misspoke a little as Sageous pointed out. Suicide rates are going down in America, interesting. I knew I had heard something about this before, so I looked it up:
In More Religious Countries, Lower Suicide Rates

So I misspoke when I said "Christian". The idea really goes to anyone that believes in a purpose from something that is not in our flesh. So religious people. Sorry about that.

Sageous. What is your purpose? Do you believe in something more than the physical, or is your purpose something that in 1000 years will be gone? I do not mean to offend. But I am curious to know more about you. You are a smart man that seems to have lived a happy life and seems to succeed in things that he does. Your art is incredible, and I will be reading your books soon as well.

Also, thought experiments like that are very interesting to me.

I enjoyed reading it and toying with the idea and trying to see which parts would be plausible and what would go through a creators head when doing this. Of course I love all things fiction, so I find many things to be interesting like that.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Do you have any idea how disgustingly insulting that is?

Blueline... I find this interesting that you would ever be insulted by a Christian. Isn't your profile pic a joke of our God? Not saying that I am offended, but it seems to me that your picture would be saying "I don't care what Christian's think." As Voldmer says, according to my worldview, I said nothing insulting, so what is your worldview, and how is that insulting to you?

StehpL!

But since you say, you do not agree with all of the information it contains - please point out, what exactly you don't agree with!

We are talking about the picture with the kid right?
According to religion:
broken
flawed
sinful
dumb
weak
nothing

Ok... let me look at these. These are things that Christianity uses when comparing us to God or the fact that we are going to die when we were made to live forever: Broken, flawed, sinful, and weak. Dumb is only when it comes to spiritual things. There are two types of smarts mentioned in the Bible. One is worldy wisdom and one is spiritual, it mentions being smart in both as a blessing, but one is obviously better than the other. The Apostles for instance were "laymen" they were not over learned pharisees or Sadducees, they were wise when it came to God though because the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
nothing? Can you give a reference for this? As I see it, God paid everything for us, so we are worth Christ Blood as I mentioned before. Which is the highest price paid, so we are worth quite a bit. Beautifully and wonderfully made... etc. God thought that we were worth it. I could add a million good things to this side, but I will move on.

According to Science I am:
full of wonder
smart
a great learner
beautiful
potential for greatness

Can't argue with these. Though all but #2 are taken from scripture. Remember that as a Christian we don't think that Religion is directly opposed to science. Actually the opposite, we believe that science shows the existence of a supreme being. The heavens (all 3 heavens described, the sky, the universe, and heaven) declare the glory of God.

Frick! I was so confused about why I didn't get any answers to the whole evolution part of my post and I realize that I left it out yesterday accidentally.

I am forgetful sometimes. That Ken Ham vs Bill Nye (Love both of those dudes, listened to both when growing up) debate was about Creation, our debate is about evolution! Though funny enough I have some evolutionist friends that think that Ken Ham won the debate. Strange...

Evolution
One of my scientific arguments is this:
Evolution states that we went from a single celled organism to what we are now. From simple to complex
Since matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another, it is an isolated system
an isolated system, unless acted on by an outside force, will go from complex to simple, not the other way around.
If these above are true, then Evolution would be implausible.

Not the best argument, and since I have never heard anyone else use it, I am sure that there is a simple answer. I am actually delighted to see your answers. I have more reasons, but since this one is uniquely mine, I would like to see your answers.

**Descensus** · 06-13-2014 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sensei

Blueline... I find this interesting that you would ever be insulted by a Christian. Isn't your profile pic a joke of our God? Not saying that I am offended, but it seems to me that your picture would be saying "I don't care what Christian's think." As Voldmer says, according to my worldview, I said nothing insulting, so what is your worldview, and how is that insulting to you?

It's Jesus smoking, from an album cover (or a piece of merch, maybe) from the band Down. No, it should not imply that I don't care what Christians think. If it is insulting, I'd wager it's a lot less insulting than implying your opponents have no reason to live, whether you meant it that way or not. Read what I said to Sageous: even if you didn't mean it as an insult, it has historicaly been used that way by your intellectual colleagues.

Evolution
One of my scientific arguments is this:
Evolution states that we went from a single celled organism to what we are now. From simple to complex
Since matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another, it is an isolated system
an isolated system, unless acted on by an outside force, will go from complex to simple, not the other way around.
If these above are true, then Evolution would be implausible.

Not the best argument, and since I have never heard anyone else use it, I am sure that there is a simple answer. I am actually delighted to see your answers. I have more reasons, but since this one is uniquely mine, I would like to see your answers.

This is just a rehash of the argument that uses the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to disprove evolution. It is indeed not the best argument (nor is it unique), because:

Evolution states that we went from a single celled organism to what we are now. From simple to complex

Evolution states that inherited traits in a population will change over time. The empirical data states that all life shares a common ancestor, which were likely single-celled organisms.

Since matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another, it is an isolated system

What is an isolated system? If it's Earth, then this part of your argument is incorrect, because:

an isolated system, unless acted on by an outside force, will go from complex to simple, not the other way around.

Earth is not a closed system; it receives energy from the sun, which is used by plants for photosynthesis, which are then eaten by herbivores and omnivores, which are then eaten by carnivores and omnivores. And when the primary produces (plants), herbivores, omnivores, and carnivores die, the detritivores eat them.

**balban** · 06-14-2014 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Sensei

Evolution
One of my scientific arguments is this:
Evolution states that we went from a single celled organism to what we are now. From simple to complex
Since matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another, it is an isolated system
an isolated system, unless acted on by an outside force, will go from complex to simple, not the other way around.
If these above are true, then Evolution would be implausible.

Not the best argument, and since I have never heard anyone else use it, I am sure that there is a simple answer. I am actually delighted to see your answers. I have more reasons, but since this one is uniquely mine, I would like to see your answers.

An isolated system has nothing to do with the conservation law of energy. The matter and energy, contained inside an isolated system (or any thermodynamic system for that matter), will observe this law; however, simply because matter and energy observe this law, the act of observance doesn't define the system that they are contained within. To that end, an isolated system is only a theoretical concept that doesn't even exist in nature. You are altering the meaning of an "isolated system" to make your ends meet.

But, you could argue that our universe is an isolated system. Sure... maybe. But so what. To that which exists inside of this system, all that means is that what is inside stays inside; what is outside stays outside. My point is your theory doesn't apply to an atom or a molecule or a cell or a body or a planet or... you get the point. Because we don't live in an isolated system, and we ourselves aren't an isolated system, and we aren't made up of isolated systems, there is no need to dive into your complexity argument unless you choose to package it in another way. I'll address it then should you chose to throw out the complexity argument again.

So... just for the sake of saying it - the above isn't true, therefore evolution should be plausible to you now.

**StephL** · 06-14-2014 01:38 AM

I did not mean the little girl!! I meant the below, it used to be spoilered in my post from the 11.06.14

The below is how that looked in the post from three days ago:

Originally Posted by StephL

Taking into account, that not everybody actually listens in biology class, or when otherwise confronted with the evidence, there is the possibility of misconceptions, even among people who believe in it. All the more so among people who don't.

So to clear the field of some of these - here a nice and easily digestible info-graphic on the topic. It's big and contains nothing new to probably most of us - so I spoiler it:

Spoiler for common misconceptions about evolution::

Could it be that some of your "scientific arguments" against evolution are already cleared up by this?
No?

Well then - what are your "scientific arguments" against the conclusion, that human beings and modern animals have a common ancestor, and that life has evolved over billions of years? Besides "it says so in the bible" of course.

Since we do have agreed on evolution - I wonder, how you could have come to the conclusion, I would have meant the picture with the little girl. But you might have indeed:

Originally Posted by Sensei

Steph, I am not confused by those things. They are pretty much what you will always see when you look at evolution from a modern evolutionist perspective. You want me to answer that picture most of all right? I do not agree with a lot of it. The Bible says that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. The price of a thing is the amount that a thing is bought for, and since Jesus spent the most precious gift, then the human soul is worth a lot.

Just - what could you have meant with "not confused by those things"?
I thought, it could only refer to the infographic - but maybe not.
Aanyway - my answer to that on the 12.06.14 was:

Originally Posted by StephL

I want you to stay on topic - and we agreed on the topic. And I wanted to kick start said topic off with these:

Originally Posted by StephL

Could it be that some of your "scientific arguments" against evolution are already cleared up by this?
No?

Well then - what are your "scientific arguments" against the conclusion, that human beings and modern animals have a common ancestor, and that life has evolved over billions of years? Besides "it says so in the bible" of course.

Unfortunately you ignored the second set of questions. Balban asked you for exactly the same thing again, just in different words - see below.
So come on, do not dodge!
And no - I did not want you to "answer the picture", it doesn't even constitute a question. I wanted you to consider it, before you bring up one of the mentioned misconceptions as an argument.
But since you say, you do not agree with all of the information it contains - please point out, what exactly you don't agree with!
It is easy to only quote the relevant parts of it, too - it consists of many singular pictures.

Originally Posted by Sensei

StehpL!

We are talking about the picture with the kid right?

Spoiler for for Sensei talking about the wrong picture:

Frick! I was so confused about why I didn't get any answers to the whole evolution part of my post and I realize that I left it out yesterday accidentally.

WTF?? Yesterday? Hm.
No - I was repeatedly talking about the infographic - first three days ago - my first and obviously at evolution directed step.
I did notify you as to why I posted it - and everybody as to why I spoilered it.

And I mentioned, also repeatedly, that the picture would provide information about common misconceptions in laypeople concerning the theories of evolution. Sic - plural - but not the way, you had implied.

Now be that all as it may - maybe I post too convolutely - this is what I want from you:

Take a close look at the graphic and it's text, and please reconsider, if you do indeed agree with all of the information in the common-evolution-misconceptions-infographic/picture or not!
And if you do not agree with all of it - please tell us, with what all do you exactly disagree, and on which grounds!?

As I said, the graphic is very nicely quotable - easy to only quote the relevant parts, since it consists of several singular pictures.
So please - use the quote-function - it does make sense! Including by alleviating confusionary excursions.

Well then - over to you!

**Sageous** · 06-14-2014 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Sensei

Sageous. What is your purpose? Do you believe in something more than the physical, or is your purpose something that in 1000 years will be gone? I do not mean to offend. But I am curious to know more about you. You are a smart man that seems to have lived a happy life and seems to succeed in things that he does. Your art is incredible, and I will be reading your books soon as well.

What's my purpose? I'm not sure I can answer that in one post... In that sort of space I cold provide little more than hints only, I think, or unreadable vagaries, I suppose. But regardless let me give you a hyper-abbreviated answer that might sum things up at least:

Yes, I believe that there is, or there ought to be, something "more," though I think that "more" may stem more from our own potentials than from any outside source. Is my purpose something that will survive another millennium? I sure hope so! My current spiritual/fantastical goals do indeed include the survival of my essence -- or some version of it -- for a thousand years or more. If you want to get a more expanded feel for my purpose, or what I believe, wish to be, and how I think this universe's gears grind, checking out my books would be an excellent idea -- and of course I would certainly appreciate it if you did!

That said: I also try to maintain a clear understanding that that "more," should it exist, very likely transcends anything I can expect right now, and might possibly entail something far different than expected: Who knows? Maybe there will be a bearded old man greeting me after death with arms folded and a severe frown, saying, "You never listened." Because of that understanding, I am more preparing myself to be open to whatever the "something more may be," regardless of my expectations, than I am in focusing on one set of tenets (especially someone else's tenets). Sleep yoga is a great tool for this, BTW. And, yes, succeeding in continuing past death would certainly be a nice cap to my happy life!

I hope some of this made sense, or at least let you be assured that straight materialism is simply not my gig, and that my life, to me, has some purpose.

**Universal Mind** · 06-14-2014 04:38 PM

This is Evolution 101:

**Alric** · 06-14-2014 10:52 PM

Nothing in science says that things goes from complex to simple in an isolated system. Science say that stuff in an isolated system tend to seek equilibrium, as in it remains stable and doesn't change. So if I have an ice cube in a cup and nothing enters or escape the cup the ice cube will remain an ice cube. If I have water in a cup and nothing enters or leaves the cup it will remain water. If there is water and an ice cube in the cup, and nothing leaves or enter the cup the the two are going to transfer heat between them until they are in a stable state and then it is going to remain unchanging from then on.

Complexity isn't a factor in anything at all. If the more 'complex' form is the more stable form then it will become more complex. For example if we take two very reactive elements and put them in an isolated system together they may very well react with each other and produce a more 'complex' object.

Also, as was pointed out, we are not living in an isolated system. Life forms are always eating stuff, and if you eat something you are adding stuff from outside your body. So anything that eats stuff isn't isolated. Then we also have the sun hitting us, sending us energy. So the earth isn't isolated either. Then we have light from other solar systems hitting us, and our sun is sending light out of our solar system so the solar system isn't isolated either.

**StephL** · 06-15-2014 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by Sageous

Who knows? Maybe there will be a bearded old man greeting me after death with arms folded and a severe frown, saying, "You never listened."
Because of that understanding, I am more preparing myself to be open to whatever the "something more may be," regardless of my expectations, than I am in focusing on one set of tenets (especially someone else's tenets).

Better save than sorry? Hm.
"AND NOW I WILL SMITE THOU!! With a lightning bolt - surprise!"
Could it really be like this - what do you honestly think? Besides for poetic purposes?

Somehow I have to think of this famous exchange at a podium discussion again - not really on topic, though:
"But what if you're wrong?" - somebody
"...science works - bitches!" - Richard Dawkins
Christianity simply doesn't compute - it could never have worked like that!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

This is Evolution 101:

Universal Mind!

You know I have a problem with some of your opinions in the off topic area of this affair - but I have to say - I'm so happy about you having graced the thread with this lovely video - I'll give you immaterial flowers:

flowers.gif

Phantastisch - absolutely crystal-clear and correct concerning the text - easily followable and hilarious and entertaining. Which is important at times! And these "evolution-bears" are the sweetest thing I saw in public education. Including because you may watch them fornicate and love each other, die and deal with worms.
The finches!
Mitosis and meiosis - mutation and recombination - chance - it is all there.

Soo - Sensei - now you have my info-graphic and UM's video - besides three logical, understandable and correct counterings of
your "complexity argument". Please get back to us on graphic and video - I think, you will agree, that complexity is not your friend.

Not at all, actually.
How could there be anything more complex than a personalized god?
And if the complex universe "needs" a cause, an origin, being created - because it is so complex - what then about God?
Do you really believe, that the most complex of all imaginable "things" was the very first and original thing?!
Why don't you need a "cause", an origin in time and space or "outside of these", a creator - for a god as well?
Why not?
Who created god - how did god come into being? Hm?!
Turtles all the way down.
Meaning, you end up in infinite regress - and that's surely not where Yahweh is supposed to reside!

This especially to all the Deists out there!!
I can't quite understand it, really.

Not specifically for Sensei - you might want to take a look at this simulation of the last 14 billion years of the history of our universe! If you acknowledge the validity of it, that it depicts what we can detect outwards and backwards in time - then you will also see this:
The unfolding went from the simple to the more complex! So maybe this is "more natural" for universal beginnings?!

Published on May 7, 2014 - The simulation, called the Illustris, begins just 12 million years after the Big Bang and illustrates the formation of stars, heavy elements, galaxies, exploding super novae and dark matter over 14 billion years.

Origins of the Universe Exposed in Dazzling 3D Videos | Supernova Simulations
As far as I can see - this link brings you to text and a video about how they computed the above simulation at Stanford, and "what it all means". Some of that.
For the fascinated - and I will watch and read around a bit too!
Cool.gif

Sensei - fascination or not - you have a legacy to work on first: my info-graphic and Universal Mind's video. Complexity being a bitch and all.
Take a very close look at both - and then tell us, which exactly all the things are, where Sensei thinks, they got it wrong. And on which grounds.

**Sageous** · 06-15-2014 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by StephL

Originally Posted by Sageous:
Who knows? Maybe there will be a bearded old man greeting me after death with arms folded and a severe frown, saying, "You never listened."
Because of that understanding, I am more preparing myself to be open to whatever the "something more may be," regardless of my expectations, than I am in focusing on one set of tenets (especially someone else's tenets).

Better save than sorry? Hm.
"AND NOW I WILL SMITE THOU!! With a lightning bolt - surprise!"
Could it really be like this - what do you honestly think? Besides for poetic purposes?

You didn't quote my whole paragraph, Steph, which in this case I think might have omitted the actual the context of what you bolded, so here it is in its entirety:

Originally Posted by Sageous

That said: I also try to maintain a clear understanding that that "more," should it exist, very likely transcends anything I can expect right now, and might possibly entail something far different than expected: Who knows? Maybe there will be a bearded old man greeting me after death with arms folded and a severe frown, saying, "You never listened." Because of that understanding, I am more preparing myself to be open to whatever the "something more may be," regardless of my expectations, than I am in focusing on one set of tenets (especially someone else's tenets). Sleep yoga is a great tool for this, BTW.

I think if you look at the whole paragraph, you will see that the understanding I maintain is that, should there be a something "more," it will very likely be something that I do not expect, or perhaps am currently incapable of expecting. I am not playing it safe; I am trying to maintain a state of mind that is open to anything that might occur, one that will not attach artificial, incorrect, or perceptually safe meaning to what I find based on the stuff they tried to teach me while I was alive (the hard part, BTW). The bit about the the old guy with folded arms was a joke; I am not trying to cover all the bases -- probably quite the contrary, as a matter of fact: if anything I'm trying to eliminate any sense of bases.

This is what I honestly think -- that I hope and expect that there will be "more," that this "more" is formed more from our own potentials than from an outside source or benefactor, and it will very likely be transcendental in nature -- and I believe I did say that above. I have a feeling that you understood that, Steph, but I wanted to make it clear that I am not trying to be some bobble-head covering all the bases, just in case someone else misunderstands. I rarely actually say this stuff about myself and my views & goals, even briefly, so I wanted to be clear.

**Sensei** · 06-15-2014 07:03 AM

Will watch all the vids before I post back.

Sageous, I will also post about your ideas... Intriguing to me.

**StephL** · 06-15-2014 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sensei

Will watch all the vids before I post back.

Sageous, I will also post about your ideas... Intriguing to me.

Sensei!!

Info-graphic!!
And quote that graphic in it's singular parts from my last before last post!!
You fear it like the devil holy water, don't you?! wink.gif

@Sageous: Later. I believe, I had to shout this at Sensei first. I start to feel like a god-damn broken record. rolleyes.gif
I hope, he will finally acknowledge that EVOLUTION = TOPIC, and not keep sneaking about the place!
He is constantly on the look-out for an opening, through which he might steer into different thematic waters - that is my impression!!
Let's maybe get a fresh thread up on "transcendental" one fine day - I have a problem with that, but it's off-, or overreaching the local topic!

**balban** · 06-16-2014 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sageous

Is my purpose something that will survive another millennium? I sure hope so! My current spiritual/fantastical goals do indeed include the survival of my essence -- or some version of it -- for a thousand years or more.

This is one of the reasons that I believe religious thinking flourishes. We can't seem to get passed the idea that we are completely insignificant. The writing on the wall and yet we fight against it. The reality is that for the vast majority of us our "lasting" impression will probably die off when our children die. Maybe, if you're "lucky", when your grandchildren die. That's about it. And for the most "significant" of us, they are just one cataclysmic event away from total annihilation. Life on this planet is one asteroid strike away from never having existed. This can be an emotionally difficult thing to wrap your head around.

But this isn't a call to hedonism as some would believe; it doesn't mean that at every moment it is somehow OK to search out or take only that which satisfies your own needs. Rather, this knowledge forces me to think about how I am perceived by others in this moment, because right now is really all that matters. I know that my survival, all of the successes that have gotten me to this moment, was ultimately the result of cooperation from other people - from my parents, to my friends, to my co-workers, to my acquaintances, all the way to total strangers who have made/discovered/done things that I've rely upon to get me to this point in time. I know that for me to survive and have all the experiences that life affords me, good or bad, you have to survive and have these things as well.

Not everyone makes these choices in life. There is a lot of misery in the world. However, along with all the horrible, unimaginable evils we impose on each other, there is something beautiful within us as well. We all have the capacity to provide all the properties that religions hold sacred - charity, self sacrifice and love. History is littered with examples of this. Perhaps one day we will grow up and realize that this is our lives, our only life and that the reward was always to have even existed at all. Shouldn't that be enough?

**StephL** · 06-16-2014 09:14 PM

@Balban:

This is such an adorable answer! Acknowledging one's insignificance in the grand scheme of things is indeed too painful for most people.
But it is on every one of us to personally find and create significance in this life and in this very moment - which is all we ever have.

I harbour some fantasies around science-fiction concepts like longevity to the extreme - I won't lead this sorry thread astray with them, though.
But even if such things were to come one day - it wouldn't change the above notions.

**StephL** · 06-17-2014 09:28 PM

Sensei!!
How long can it possibly take to comment on my damn info-graphic from a week ago?!
Now go ahead and quote this post and say something!!

While you are at it Sensei - do we agree on the fact, that your "complexity argument" doesn't hold water?
Have you read the several answers you got on the topic a while back and thought them through?
Then there is simply no other conclusion for you to draw - be a man and admit it!! wink.gif

**AirRick101** · 06-18-2014 04:07 PM

I was a Christian, but then discovered lucid dreaming, and the thought of doing anything with no consequences opened me up to a world of possibility that wasn't available before, when I let the church run my life.

**StephL** · 06-18-2014 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by AirRick101

I was a Christian, but then discovered lucid dreaming, and the thought of doing anything with no consequences opened me up to a world of possibility that wasn't available before, when I let the church run my life.

hi5 (2).gif

Thank you for speaking up!!

I will now sneakily use this post to transfer my edit-tirade on over, which I had originally put into my last post earlier today - so that it doesn't clutter, what I expect Sensei to quote.
What I was editing in was, that I almost feel like apologizing to everybody else in here for my insistence.
But Sensei has been taking his mouth extremely full on the 5th of June:

Originally Posted by Sensei

Would you like to make this a straight up debate about evolution? I have studied this subject immensely, and wouldn't mind that.

He must have meant something with this post.
And my best guess is, that he was about to dish out the above depicted misconceptions at the heart of his "argument".
Most Creationists do.
He lets a week go by without commenting on it (I first posted it on the 11.06.14) and instead dances about, doesn't even acknowledge it is there, and now seemingly hopes for it to go away. It won't.
In the meantime then comes this complexity thing, he gets refuted several times over, also quite a while back - and why do we still lack a statement on that!?

Three days ago:

Originally Posted by Sensei

Will watch all the vids before I post back.

Nobody expected him to watch and comment on the Nye/Ham debate - I hope, I made that clear - and the other "all the vids" consist of:

2 min. fresh life in peanut-butter
11 min. wonderful video explaining evolution
2 min. of only pretty pictures and no text about the history of the universe, which I told him, was not for him to answer on

So - that makes a rounded up 16 min. of "vids", out of which only Universal Mind's 11 min. video was actually meant to be commented on by him!!
I watched his whole one hour+ kickstarter thing, even the start of the next one, I recapitulated the essence of it in here and then started analysing it! Took me at the most maybe 2 h (incl. watching it). How long could one possibly need for 11 min. I wonder?
But what the ever - I was first with the info-graphic anyway!!

@Sensei - you don't run away on us now, do you?! Quote my last post - #143, damn it - and pleease as well!
If you feel, you are out of your league with us - why don't you ask your church elders for help with it?!

**abcde** · 06-18-2014 04:45 PM

We are all gods, just young ones , gods life is one big lucid dream ,

**gab** · 06-18-2014 05:21 PM

Ok, I'm gonna stop this witch hunt right here.

Personal attacks are not ok. Putting words in peoples mouth is not ok. If this conversation can not continue without that, it will be ended.

Editing a post and reposting it again, so someone has new time limit to edit is just wow.

If somebody is not replying here anymore, a little benefit of doubt would go long way. Maybe their lives don't revolve around this? Maybe they don't care for tone and language?
Maybe comments like this tell people that someone doesn't wish to debate, but selely change someone's mind?

And my best guess is, that he was about to dish out the above depicted misconceptions at the heart of his "argument".

While you are at it Sensei - do we agree on the fact, that your "complexity argument" doesn't hold water?
Have you read the several answers you got on the topic a while back and thought them through?
Then there is simply no other conclusion for you to draw - be a man and admit it!! Name: wink.gif Views: 5 Size: 999 Bytes

Does anybody really think that comments like this are conductive to productive conversation?

"If you feel, you are out of league with us - why don't you ask your church elders for help with it?!"

"sensei - you don't run away on us now, do you?!"

Oh, and the winkies, somehow they don't soften the blow.

I could go on and make dozens of quotes from not only this thread. But I hope this is enough.

And this is not an invitation to debate this. If this can't be let go without a reply to me, PM please. I'm posting this here in public, because private avenue has been utilized already to no awail. And it will be utilized again.

Thank you all.

**StephL** · 06-18-2014 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by abcde

We are all gods, just young ones , gods life is one big lucid dream ,

Weell - the one draw-back with lucid dreams is, that one is completely and utterly alone in them.
I feel "only" human and not divine in my real life - but I have to say - being human is something absolutely wonderful - not something somehow insufficient.

But yupp - in my lucid dreams I am a goddess - all the power, which comes with it, though - is only playing out in my own head.
So what is the significance of what you say here, abcde? Besides being poetic, I mean?

**abcde** · 06-18-2014 06:01 PM

Iv been having ld for about 20 years and all this time never new anyone else had them iv got to the point of saying to myself when in ld, not rc but " here we go again!!" its just the norm to me , iv never done any training or all that but it just happens naturally,, trying to figure an answer to all the questions in my head or in my dreams come to one conclusion,,, in my dreams i am the creator, therefore i am a god,,,---- note i did say A god, and not god.

All is set for the future( heaven) don't be afraid

Lucid dreaming is the way god thinks, the church doesn't run your life, god does, but seeing as you think the same as god ,then you run your life,, can u see were this is going,,,o wise one ,,,

**balban** · 06-18-2014 06:28 PM

Well... for all intents and purposes, our god has spoken. And with that being said, it's time to cool our heads and recalibrate the discussion, should all the participants decide to continue on from here. I believe the floor is yours, Sensei. No pressure.