• # Thread: Can "GOD" be manipulated?

1.  So I googled "infinity in practical math" and this was the top result. There's a couple of examples of where it is used. Again, I'm not a mathematician so I won't pretend I understand it. But I am going to say that it's clearly bullshit to say that it isn't rational to use it. There's like, at least 5 examples just in that random thread on the internet and they clearly aren't all of them. Did you watch the Vi Hart video? Do you think she just made up all those things and pulled them out of her ass? You think someone just had a giggle when they came up with concepts such as cordinals, Aleph Null, Big Omega and so on? Clearly these are real things.

2.  Originally Posted by Alric Advanced maths are not just theoretical and concept based, they are used to build bridges and put satellites into orbit and stuff. In that kind of math, infinity is used. Give me an example of how infinity is used, to put a satellite into space..... Why would you need infinity to build a bridge? There is nothing in the dimensions of any bridge that is infinite. "ready to build the bridge?" "have you got that infinity number" "no" "oh, we can't build it now, we need infinity" "no the dimensions of the bridge are clear" "no it's advanced maths, just trust me it can't work without infinity" "the bridge is not infinite, neither are it's materials infinite, we don't need infinity" "don't you know maths? infinity is the only way to design this" "you are not logical, how did you become an engineer again?" "they send things into space with infinity" "How" "I was taught it off youtube and google" "I don't think you understand what you are saying"

3.  Here is a video that talks about some example math problems using infinity. https://www.khanacademy.org/math/dif...ts-at-infinity It is useful for finding the relationship between numbers. When you are building complex things, you must factor in multiple variables at once. For example you have three planes, up down, left right, forward backward. If you push an object through multiple planes at once. For example I have a phone in front of me, and I apply a force to the bottom left corner. It would cause the top right of the phone to move towards me, and in a downward direction, and to the left all at the same time. You also have things like determining the volatility and speed of an object that is flying through the air, which changes due to the friction in the air and gravity of the earth, which changes depending on how high up you go. Now you need to determine where the object will be any any set period given a set constant thrust applied over the length of it's travel time. I don't want to get into a lecture about how the math works for specific things, but my point is that there is a lot of complex relationships between numbers. So going back to the video example, I have no idea what those formulas are for, and they are probably just made up text book examples with no real life applications. However, similar problems do appear in real life, and when they do knowing the math can solves problems and give you an answer. A real life example, would be if your trying to figure out the terminal velocity of a person falling. As you may or may not know, as something falls it picks up speed, falling faster and faster as it falls. The variables involved in figuring out terminal velocity any where, would be things like the mass of the person falling, gravity, and the air resistance. Lastly a key part of figuring it out, is the length of time you have been falling. As I said, the longer you fall the faster you fall, so the time your falling makes a big difference in what speed your going. A microsecond after you begin falling your barely moving at all, but a minute later your going really fast. However, you don't know how long you will fall before reaching the needed velocity. Though in this case it doesn't matter. You just treat the time falling as approaching infinity. Because you are falling at the same speed at infinity seconds as you are 5 seconds after reaching terminal velocity. We could try to plug in a really large number but there is no way to be sure that the large number is large enough for us to have reached terminal velocity. So in this case it makes practical sense to use infinity because then we are guaranteed to have a number large enough to give us the time needed to fully reach terminal velocity.

4.  If I may chime in for a moment, in the standard model of physics, you encounter infinities in energy potentials during certain particle collisions. This was one of the reasons for one of the founders of the model, Paul Dirac to be convinced that it must be wrong for he thought that no theory so ugly could be the way nature really is. String theory apparently resolves that issue but cannot be tested yet until we have particle accelerators far more powerful than even the large hadron collider. Here's a music video about it:

5.  Hey Deanstar it looks like you still can't argue one thing at a time and you have to keep finding different reasons to deflect, like the fact that I supposedly went in "overdrive". What does that have to do with any of my points? Logic and reasoning are not something that require being all knowing, where are you getting this idea? Logic and reasoning are the labels we gave to the mental processes we use as tools in analyzing the world around us. They are human concepts, and so require having equal intelligence as human beings and to be able to live the human experience to understand. Nothing about being all knowing. In fact if you were all knowing, you wouldn't need to use logic or reasoning to understand your reality. You already know everything. Logic and reasoning exist solely for the purpose of gaining knowledge. Please explain how I am wrong, and don't just ignore what I say, or say you already told me, because you haven't. You can't just claim something and not explain how you came to that conclusion and why it is more correct than somebody else's. You seem really good at avoiding that last part because it's just so damn inconvenient.

6. ## God opens his hands to the desire of evrry living being. (Bible)

 Interesting thread. I'm nervous to contribute. ... but ... Originally Posted by dutchraptor Maybe god is some really insecure supernatural being. He created earth cause he wanted some realistic opinions. The people he created kept twisting his words until he started believing them. Every time a new religion pops up he starts to follow them because a bunch of people start praying to him that their way is the right one. In that case, yes, god is capable of being manipulated. In fact maybe he's believing what I wrote just now, in which case he once again knows the truth. (Hahaha dutchraptor) In case you believe in one of the less likely situations, like an omnipotent god, then no he can't be manipulated. At 15 someone identify himself as "God" answered three statements I made, in a place of light. I only had this one audience with "God" and I'll be 55 on October the twelth. I said: This is truth. He said "No, this is not truth" (...) I said: I am God. He said "No, you are not God". Then quietly he said, "I am". At this point all my ... belief system, ... was gone because I believed that the "purpose" of life was to merge-with-truth and become "God". After a while I mumbled to myself: What's the purpose? He said: "I brought you into being to serve you".

7.  That is very interesting. That would suggest God brought us into being to give him purpose so perhaps God was suffering from existential nihilism at some point. I'm not saying for a moment I believe it but thank you for sharing your experience nonetheless.

8.  Hi DeviantThinker Originally Posted by DeviantThinker That is very interesting. That would suggest God brought us into being to give him purpose so perhaps God was suffering from existential nihilism at some point. I'm not saying for a moment I believe it but thank you for sharing your experience nonetheless. Here is where that verse is Psalm 145 verse 16 ★★★ Psalm 145 KJV ★★★ Verse 16) - Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing. I think the problem is that we have lots of miserable desires based on disappointment, fear and anger. And god opens his hand and satisfies those desires too. Buddha indicates that what we think (desire) creates the scafolding of our future. Dark thoughts create much future suffering. So maybe, through our desires we manipulate God 100%. Dammapada verse 1 - 6 The mind is the basis for everything. Everything is created by my mind, and is ruled by my mind. When I speak or act with impure thoughts, suffering follows me As the wheel of the cart follows the hoof of the ox. *(2) The mind is the basis for everything. Everything is created by my mind, and is ruled by my mind. When I speak or act with a clear awareness, happiness stays with me. Like my own shadow, it is unshakeable. *(3) "I was wronged! I was hurt! I was defeated! I was robbed!" If I cultivate such thought, I will not be free from hatred. *(4) "I was wronged! I was hurt! I was defeated! I was robbed!" If I turn away from such thoughts, I may find peace. *(5) In this world, hatred has never been defeated by hatred. Only love*can overcome hatred. This is an ancient and eternal law. *(6) Everything will end. When I understand this, all quarrels fade away.

9.  Thank you EbbTide. That is beautiful. It is kind of what I was saying to someone else on another thread about hate. Glad to see you back my dear.

10.  Originally Posted by Alric You just treat the time falling as approaching infinity. Because you are falling at the same speed at infinity seconds as you are 5 seconds after reaching terminal velocity. We could try to plug in a really large number but there is no way to be sure that the large number is large enough for us to have reached terminal velocity. So in this case it makes practical sense to use infinity because then we are guaranteed to have a number large enough to give us the time needed to fully reach terminal velocity. You don't need infinity to calculate the speed of something...... "He jumped off the airplane, now calculate infinity to open the parachute!" How would you ever need to apply this?....unless you were buzz light year? It is useful for finding the relationship between numbers. When you are building complex things, you must factor in multiple variables at once. For example you have three planes, up down, left right, forward backward. If you push an object through multiple planes at once. For example I have a phone in front of me, and I apply a force to the bottom left corner. It would cause the top right of the phone to move towards me, and in a downward direction, and to the left all at the same time. up, down, left, right, that's the third dimension. It's not 'multiple variables'. If I make a chair I don't need to consider 'variables of infinity'. And so what if you press down on your phone, and it lifts up..... why do you need infinity for that? You can measure the force applied it's predictable what will happen, you don't need infinity. No rocket ship or plane, or anything in 3rd dimensional reality, is complex enough for calculation of infinity cause all calculations are based on an actual measurement. What possible revelation can you get from putting infinity into anything, all that you can ever conclude is that infinity won't change, cause it's not a number. It's like putting X into a maths problem and using it as a scapegoat for error. "what happened to your maths problem the equation didn't work", "blame it on X, just infinity". Any equation you give me for pratical use of something, I can easily show you how to do it without infinity. Use your phone as an example. The amount of force applied in a particular direction and location is directly proportional to it's reaction considering size, mass, and movement. No infinity needed. My conversation with you Alric can go something like this: Alric: "you have to measure it by infinity seconds" Deanstar: "why" Alric: "terminal velocity" Deanstar: "the amount of speed I am traveling at, that is the time for the distance covered" Alric: "but how can we know the relationship between numbers?" Deanstar "we know what the numbers are" Alric: "real mathematicians use infinity" Deanstar: "what for" Alric: "gravity, we need a number large enough" Deanstar: "why do you need to insert any irrelevant numbers?" Alric: "because it's falling down, and we don't know when it will reach terminal velocity" Deanstar: "you measure it by the gravitational field, we know the mass and the speed" Alric: "If I press down on my phone, the other half will lift up, multiple variables in space and time" Deanstar: "so?" Alric: "infinity is very useful in maths, such as 5 seconds before terminal velocity, to infinity and beyond" Deanstar: "no it isn't buzz, you are speaking out of your ass again" Alric: "A microsecond after you begin falling your barely moving at all, but a minute later your going really fast." Deanstar: like sonic the hedgehog. Alric: "you are so illogical, you don't even know what a paradox is, if I use infinity then I have a paradox" Deanstar: "that's why you don't use it in real maths"

11.  Okay, let me try explaining it another way. Often time in math when you have variables that change you put those on a math grid. That way you can easily see how the variable changes in relationship with each other. For example you have Y = x +1. You plug in 1 for Y and x is equal to 0. If you plug 2 in for Y, x is equal to 1. If you plug in 3 for Y, x is 2. There is a relationship between X and Y. Pretty much everything can be put into some type of formula and they can be very complex. In those problems you can get things like asymptotes, which pass infinity close to numbers without touching the numbers. In math it is often important to know how to find and work with infinity so you can deal with them. Often times because something interesting may be happening at those numbers. Using the terminal velocity example again, the longer you fall the faster you go. You never actually hit a constant speed and are always increasing in speed, however that increase is smaller and smaller. So for example you might hit 50% terminal velocity in 5 seconds, and 99% terminal velocity at 10 seconds, and 99.9% at 15 seconds, and 99.99% at 15 seconds or something(not actual numbers just giving an example). However, you speed is clearly going towards a number. Lets say that the terminal velocity in some specific case is 5 miles per hour. If you graphed it you would find an asymptote at 5, where the graph shows the line getting infinity close to 5 but never reaching it. In that case, you could use that information to determine that the number your looking for is infinity close to 5, or just 5. However if you weren't able to find the number that the line moved infinity close to, you couldn't solve the equation. Infinity doesn't break the math, math actually uses it to solve the problem.

13.  How would you write a third as a decimal number if infinity is useless? Please, do tell me what the answer is to one divided by three.

14.  Deanstar I've talked to you yesterday in private messaging and suggested you not reply any more, to which you agreed. But since then you've written at least half a dozen posts, I feel I should go ahead and try again, this time publically: You're not making strong arguments. I think a lot of the problem is there's not enough good communication. Nobody's agreeing on common ground, premises, or a set of logic to use. For one, you have a different world view to most. Not in the spiritual sense, in the logical sense. Pragmaticism and the natural world play a big role, which is unfortunately at odds with philosophical arguments (such as these.) Until there's agreement on this, you're looking kind of strange and perhaps irrational to readers, those debating and those spectating. You also act childish by invoking various logical fallacies from misrepresenting people to mocking. This might not matter to you at the moment, but I'd like you to think on it for a moment. The people here aren't trying to attack you or your ideas, they're trying to discuss and teach you, and have you teach them. Debates are about challenging, sharing, and forming new ideas. The end goal is for agreement on a middle ground by both parties. You're not encouraging such behaviour or trying to educate, and I'm skeptical you're trying to learn from others. I have faith in you as a human being, and like to think in the future you may be a bit more anchored in your mind, or settled. Maybe more mature and able to articulate your points better. But there's nothing I want less than for you to reach that point and suffer regret or embarrassment in hindsight. So I'm asking you to stop posting as you currently are, and try to work on those things.

16.  Originally Posted by Deanstar Do you ever write a decimal number that goes on forever? Does any calculator? Yes. We have a specifc way to do it. You use an ellipsis: 0.555... is different from 0.555. I know you know the answer, so I'll tell you why infinity makes a difference here. If you refuse to use the decimal that goes on forever, you cannot write a third: 0.3 times 3 is 0.9, so it isn't 1 / 3. 0.333 times 3 is 0.999, so it isn't 1 / 3. 0.333333333333 times 3 is 0.999999999999, so it isn't 1 / 3. But 0.333... times 3 is 1, making exactly one third. If you want 1 / 3 you're going to need infinitely repeating decimals or you don't have a third.

17.  The math is used all the time in engineering and science. You can pretend all you want that it isn't used but you are totally wrong. Another example is if you have some irregular shape and you want to find the volume of that shape, how do you do it? Let's say you want to find the volume of a potato. How do you do that? For a cube it is easy, you multiple the length of each side together. However there isn't any formulas for finding the volume of a potato. You could drop the potato in a bucket of water and measure the amount of water that spills out but that isn't practical for everything. What if you want to measure the volume of a car, or a mountain. What if you want to find how much water is in a lake? You want to do stuff like that, you use calculus. The way you do it in calculus is you take a slice of the object that is basically a line, then take another, and another and so on. If you break up an object into individual lines, how many lines do you have? A infinite amount. Because you can always put another line between each line. So if you have a line at 1 and 2 there is a line at .5. If you have a line at .001 and .002, there is a line at .0005. Then once you have an infinite amount of lines you add them all up and you get the volume of the object. You are not physically adding each individual line, you are using mathematics which adds them. Like it was mentioned before, there are different kinds of infinity. The infinite number of slices of an object that can be added together, is another type of infinity. You keep using infinity as if it was a number but it isn't a number, it is a concept. People are not going to randomly add infinity to something, and that is silly for you to even act like that. However, infinity shows up in math all the time.

18.  How did this thread get turned into a math argument?

19.  Originally Posted by Maeni Yes. We have a specifc way to do it. You use an ellipsis: 0.555... is different from 0.555. I know you know the answer, so I'll tell you why infinity makes a difference here. If you refuse to use the decimal that goes on forever, you cannot write a third: 0.3 times 3 is 0.9, so it isn't 1 / 3. 0.333 times 3 is 0.999, so it isn't 1 / 3. 0.333333333333 times 3 is 0.999999999999, so it isn't 1 / 3. But 0.333... times 3 is 1, making exactly one third. If you want 1 / 3 you're going to need infinitely repeating decimals or you don't have a third. You didn't listen to what I just said about it. It does not matter about infinity here cause you are not using infinity in a maths problem. That is just a simple division... infinity may be part of the answer, but you don't need to use infinity as a maths problem. If it makes you happy. 0.333 does go on forever, goes on for infinity. Who cares? You don't need to use infinity in 1 divided by 3...not in laymans terms.

20.  Originally Posted by Deanstar You didn't listen to what I just said about it. It does not matter about infinity here cause you are not using infinity in a maths problem. That is just a simple division... infinity may be part of the answer, but you don't need to use infinity as a maths problem. If it makes you happy. 0.333 does go on forever, goes on for infinity. Who cares? You don't need to use infinity in 1 divided by 3...not in laymans terms. Your understanding of math is flawed. Just because an equivalent value that happens to be a rational number exists, that does not mean infinity is not part of the math problem. Any time you deal with math, infinity is part of the problem. I mean if you really want to you could write it off as layman's terms, but the purpose of saying things in layman's terms in the first place is literally to oversimplify a complex idea that one otherwise could not understand because he or she simply does not get it. That doesn't mean by any means that the simplification is no longer a simplification. edit: Math is not described as the language of the universe because we think it sounds cool, it's because with math you can literally simulate reality, it just depends on the user's proper understanding of math. Saying that 1/3 does not deal with infinity is pretty much openly saying that expressing the same number in an infinite number of ways is not possible, which it clearly is. 1/6 + 1/6 = 1/3 2/3 - 1/3 = 1/3 0.7 repeating - 0.4 repeating = 1/3 Is addition and subtraction enough or do I really need to show you more and start getting into multiplication, division, roots, using numbers that aren't even real, or algebra or calculus or anything else for that matter? Or do you get the point?

21.  How did this thread get turned into a math argument? This line of discussion has nothing to do with the topic. If you want to argue it further, make a thread about it please.

22.  Originally Posted by kadie How did this thread get turned into a math argument? This line of discussion has nothing to do with the topic. If you want to argue it further, make a thread about it please. I agree, but it's because Deanstar doesn't know how to debate just one thing. When he is presented with an argument that proves him wrong he just brings up some point that has nothing to do with the topic and thinks it makes him still right.

23.  Originally Posted by Deanstar You didn't listen to what I just said about it. It does not matter about infinity here cause you are not using infinity in a maths problem. That is just a simple division... infinity may be part of the answer, but you don't need to use infinity as a maths problem. If it makes you happy. 0.333 does go on forever, goes on for infinity. Who cares? You don't need to use infinity in 1 divided by 3...not in laymans terms. Why do you demand that maths is about laymans terms, that math has to be about cutting slices of cake and being "practical"? Math is a lot of things, and you definitely need infinity in a math problem, like for example proving that 0.333... * 3 is 1. Normally you might argue that well, isn't 0.333... * 3 just 0.999... ? And yes indeed it is but proving that 0.999... = 1 requires infinity and that is a maths problem. Kadie is implicitly making a good point here, can we maybe try to take a few steps forward and instead ask, why does infinity really matter here? Everything has been a bit of a derail; I will try again with what I said earlier, while making just one premise. My premise is that you cannot be 100% sure of any belief, except for "I am something". My conclusion is that any being who believes itself to be all knowing, cannot be 100% sure that it infact is all knowing.

24.  Originally Posted by Alric Let's say you want to find the volume of a potato. How do you do that? For a cube it is easy, you multiple the length of each side together. However there isn't any formulas for finding the volume of a potato. You could drop the potato in a bucket of water and measure the amount of water that spills out but that isn't practical for everything. What if you want to measure the volume of a car, or a mountain. What if you want to find how much water is in a lake? a potato does not have an infinite volume, neither does anything you measure. If you really think that infinity is used, why can't you demonstrate a equation in which it's useful? I'm being skeptical so show me how infinity would solve a problem. once you have an infinite amount of lines you add them all up and you get the volume of the object. You don't calculate infinite lines, cause there is no way to measure infinite lines. And if a computer needed to load something that was to do with infinity it would never stop loading because the answer would never be complete, just like if you try to measure a bottomless pit, infinite means limitless. there are different kinds of infinity. The infinite number of slices of an object that can be added together, is another type of infinity. There is only one infinity. You can't change the definition of it. You keep using infinity as if it was a number but it isn't a number, it is a concept. That's what I keep trying to tell you. That it's not compatiable with a real maths question or answer, cause it's not a number, so it can't effect the answer in anyway whatsoever cause it's not part of maths.

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