Thanks for the compliments. 8)
(Edit: Holy Shit I didn't mean for this to be so long! lol And those who believe they are the enlightened shouldn't feel so disgusted by agnostists and skeptics. We are the way we are because we are Desiring to know, and failing to find the answers! Heh.)
Well I see the sort of disappointment with where the thread was heading, but I'm still interested, lol, but if the others want to redirect its fine with me. No harm no foul.
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‘First ‘Faith is not naiveté it is the act of knowing the natural law, and seeing beyond it.
I don't think I can agree with that. Remember, \"Faith\" goes deeper than religion. To have Faith in something means you invision a certain outcome and steadfastly choose to ignore all outside input that challenges the belief of that outcome, no matter how illogical it may seem, shutting out all consciousness of possibility off fallicy.(sp) You are closing yourself to every experience which branches outside of your faith and dubbing it \"not worth consideration\" because it is not what you already believe.
This ignorance to opposition (that is Not meant to be an insult, so don't take it as one) very very closely relates to naivete. To have faith in something is to have a psychological ignorance of all opposing data, taking your gut instinct, not thinking of how opposed to logical perception it is, and running with it. While not naivete in its most basic definition, it is Very Very close.
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To those who know the purpose of good and evil also know that it is all part of the plan which God has for Man. It is not a shirking of a responsibility; it is the emersion of Man into a mixture, to bring him out of the negative experience with more than he had when he went into it.
I understand your view on this. The concept of evil could be acredited toward being \"a test for man to overcome to earn his position under the light of God.\" But you have to remember how Different a child's upbringing can be. This would mean that anyone who grows up without a proper concept of what the Gospel says is good and evil, doesn't quite have the ammunition in which to Overcome evil to succeed in \"Goodness.\" Is this person damned from birth, forsaken from heaven by the nature of their upbringing?
[quote]Yes, it is true, but for the most part it has changed for the betterment of the masses.
But on the same token, in some circles it has changed to serve the lusts of Man[/quote.
If the Bible was transcribed by those under the influence of the Spirit, who, but the spirit, has authority to change it? Who is allowed to bend the laws and by which account are they fully inclined to set forth what is \"better for the masses?\" Did God himself change his mind and relay this to those who doctored the \"Word?\" You say that \"Man will always fail you,\" but I think it is naivete to assume that whatever Man changed the \"Word\" was communing definitely with God. If not, please rationalize how this was Indisputably \"Devine Intervention.\"
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I don’t believe that any book referred to as the Bible can ever be referred to ‘as pagan’.
I did not mean \"The Pagan 'BIBLE'\" in the literal sense, as they might not have Technically ever called it their \"Bible,\" which is a bit of a literary low-blow if that is what you meant. Aside from that, to further illustrate your point, please explain the similarities between so many (including Catholic and Pagan) dieties.
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html
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It means that no matter what the outer circumstance tell you, only what your heart aliened with the Word of God tells you what true Faith is.
My heart falls more with the concept of God, than the Word of God, because the Word of God is at-large interpretted by Man (whom you conclude will always fail me.) However I know What true Faith is, I simply, as yet, don't subscribe to your view of it.
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Truth is relative to the experience of the individual; just as a diamond has many fascists so also does Faith, and Truth. We place faith where ever we need it, and one person’s faith can differ from another’s and still be the truth, and true faith.
Not so. Reality is relative to the experience of the individual. Truth is universal. A truth that warps itself to accomodate the mind of an individual is more accurately defined as \"Perception\" or \"Opinion.\" Whatever someone holds true: \"It is hot today,\" \"Catholicism is the correct religion,\" \"God exists,\" are only True if Verifiable by all accounts. Anything else is a Theory, a Perspective, an Opinion.
\"It is 95 degrees today.\" \"There are many different religions worldwide.\" \"God is, as yet, an undetermined absolution.\" THESE are truths.
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No, it is not mere understanding, which saved you, it is faith. It is you’re belief.
So if someone interprets the word of God: \"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat forever.\" (Not word-for-word) to mean that \"If I molest one child, I'll be satisfied for a night, but if I devise a plan to keep the human traffic moving, I can satisfy myself for a lifetime.\" Is not his interpretation crucial? Is his \"unwavering Faith\" promising him paradise at the end of his journey?
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It is not their understanding of text which saves them, it is their faith which plainly put is (believing in something they can’t see or explain.) God doesn’t judge us, only we judge ourselves. I know this because there is a new ability in me which God give to all his people. An ability to lay down intellect, and walk by what our heart already knows.
If I'm correct, many many MANY crimes are committed with the frame of mind that they are Justifiable. Countless terrorists and normal (abnormal) people do what they do with a sense of righteousness, and unwavering self-judgement that what they are doing is the right thing to do. In other words: Faith.
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>>Also, why is it that one is considered 'dead' for not believing in God, in God's eyes?
Because according to the Word a man who is not regenerated, or in other terms born again, (sorry about the terminology) does not have the ability to commune with God’s Spirit, So he is dead in the spirit, also God can not look on any one who is not regenerated because of sin.
So if someone went through life (again without proper influence through religious sociality) without a concept of \"Sin,\" yet they, through various interractions with truely benevolent people, lead a life of giving and projected well-being to others, this person is denied salvation by God? What if they grew up (again) in the environment of another religion and their concept of \"sin\" is different than yours? Is God's light so esoteric that you Have to have full knowledge of Sin, committing it, and being born again through it, that your level of lifelong benevolence doesn't matter if you haven't followed the right procedures?
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In every person’s life there are circumstances which we are all faced with, one of which is the place in our life where we search our heart to find our origin. It is not based on any religious underpinnings but is a build-in course of human life. So, even if some one is not raised in a ‘religious home’ there will come a time in that person’s life where they must find faith on their own.
Ahh, but that is a Dangerous answer!
An answer like that is to say (going back to what I said before about the concept of \"faith\") that following this path of exploration of self can lead to many Many interpretations of \"faith.\" One's search for self can evolve into a faith of origin that completely opposes a believer's view of God. Perhaps the person grows up an evolutionist, taking whatever information they are given through life to conclude that all scientific theory is correct, and with this, compiling a perspective of morality and their own views of right and wrong. In this, they are not only keeping themself from many of the 'sins' described in scripture, but they are putting their faith in what they believe to be their origin. Is \"God\" (which can be called \"Chance\" and/or \"the mixture of the right variables\" by evolutionists) by any other name...is still God?
This person would be displaying a True Faith, while exercising to the best of their ability the concept of \"right and wrong.\" Could they be damnable because their faith in \"Where I came from and how I should live\" does not contain the \"God\" in your context?
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It is only a human conception that God will hold paradise from those who did not believe in Him. To the contrary our reward of Paradise is solely guarantee on our asking for that gift. Hi is only the result of God holding anything back from us. ‘Look at is this way, If you where to sole heir to a vast fortune, it is there for you to take at anytime, but if you don’t know to ‘take’ it then you wont receive it. The same is true for Paradise. You don’t have because you don’t ask.
If I see what you're saying, I find it hard to digest. Again, I want to mention my true interest in this, which is why I'm playing the antagonist.
I'm going to ask you to put yourself in my shoes and look at this from an agnostic point of view.
If there is a God, being the moral (in my opinion) respect-oriented person that I am, I Do ask for a place in Heaven, if it so exists. I understand how in this respect those who flat out Don't Believe would fall short. (Not saying that This respect negates all of the other inconsistencies.) But then, not having Full Faith in God's existence, (which I'm not sure that I do) who sets the standard for What I have to do to get my way into heaven? You said that Full Faith is key, at first, but that is under-fire by the fact that many murderers blame their crimes on Full Faith. So in that respect, I pass, because Morally (assuming a fair minimum-requirement) I'm ok. But then, you have to take into consideration that I Don't Fully Believe.
So, living what I think is a morally sound, and in some cases modest, and overly-benevolent lifestlye, with a heartfelt, genuine respect and love for God (while still logically questioning his existence), are you saying that I'm not fit for heaven because my faith isn't Absolute?
I don’t think that confusion in the face of overwhelming information for and against God’s existence is a fair grounds for expulsion from Heaven. Is it?
And the most important questions, after examining your answer to the last one:
If I’m NOT fit for heaven…what kind of people are roaming around there? Those who Have Faith but misinterpret the meanings of the Word?
And: If I AM fit for Heaven, being the agnostist that I am (damn…is that really a word or not? Lol) then what is the point of adhering to the life of servitude that a Hard-Core religious person has to withstand, when Morality and a Request for Invitation are key enough?
Whoa…I think I might have actually gotten pretty deep with that one. J
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‘Thou shalt not murder’
God does not command any one to do that which is contrary to His Word.
Is this to mean those men that headed the crusades were corrupt? And if this is so, who is to say that the views that stemmed from the church of that era aren’t corrupt as well?
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Again, it is not a matter of being restricted from Heaven; it is that you can not live in Heaven without being a Spiritual Creature in born of God in fellowship with God, which again brings me back to the fact that if your not regenerated you are not able to live in Heaven. It is a matter of spiritual law, not of be better than some one else. It’s a gift! Take it.
Finally, (Damn I haven't ranted like this in a while. lol) as a question of morality and my “positive outlook and actions” through life, I AM born of God and in fellowship with God. I live my life by many of the values the religious live by, because I agree that fundamentally many things just Should Not be done. But as far as “Knowing God Exists beyond a doubt,” if God really Does exists, I’d hate to think that he would keep someone out of Heaven because of their confusion about something they have no unambiguous evidence of.