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    Thread: The Teleological Mind

    1. #26
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      Oh don't get me started on The Secret which my poor gullible mother subscribes to ...

      Hindu cosmology is interesting, by the way. I do wonder how the distinction between normal years and divine years started in Maha Yuga.

      So far I've only come to somewhat grasp the concept of God and divinity in psychological and pragmatic terms, i.e., the way in which these deeply ingrained concepts might be applicable in our lives. I have not come up with anything new or original, but rather, sifted through the musings of many great thinkers. Nietzsche chewed over the existential necessity of polar opposites and the noble applicability of amor fati. It seems to me that many philosophers have grappled with how to best refine the anthropic approach and deal with the human condition overall. Without iniquity there is no rectitude and vice versa—one helps to define the other.

      These distinctions can help us to navigate our way through life. We can only hope that our descendents learn from our mistakes and continue to progress indefinitely towards an ideal, a recurring struggle conveyed in William Golding's Lord of the Flies and Neil Burger's film Voyagers. The book and the film show how the tendency to wreak havoc comes easier than to create order and civility and how these human impulses come into conflict—the need to abide by rules and organising principles versus the will to power which Alfred Adler used as a principle in his individual psychology against Freud's will to pleasure and Viktor Frankl's will to meaning in logotherapy.

      So far, I have understood the importance of the idea of God in these terms ...

      A long time ago, humans developed sufficient consciousness to wake up to a frightening and largely unknown world. They did not know what to do and asked a lot of questions and made observations around what is and what ought to be.

      With a survival instinct and innate drives and interests, they began to create order out of chaos. They began to name things and created meaning and purpose. The world that we know today was born out of that. Suddenly our lives had meaning and purpose when we aimed at goals—and we began to imagine and dream up gods and deities that represented our ideals.

      In ancient Greece, the Telos was that which isn't a means to anything else but to which all else is a means. In ancient Egypt, the pyramids represent a hierarchy of values that we have in our minds, where the golden summit symbolises what we value the most as individuals and as a society. Such philosophy went on to influence the earliest Abrahamic religions and the message was inevitably twisted for power and manipulation of the masses.

      What sits at the top of your hierarchy of values is God for you. It isn't some manifest being who has created the universe and cares about human affairs. It is the highest ideal in human imagination which can never be realised by mere mortals but which humanity can aspire to. All we can do is try to become the best version of ourselves incrementally across time. Our lives are too short to reach and manifest God, who remains undefined in physical reality and could potentially manifest in a distant and far-fetched future—too far across time and most likely unattainable by a myriad progressive generations in their endeavours. We can only hope that our descendents learn from our mistakes and continue to progress indefinitely.

      We can imagine God. And that is real enough to get us to be humble and continue to improve because we haven't gone far enough. We should never give up no matter how hard it gets and never assume that we already have it all sussed out. We have no choice but to carry the cross, that is, bear the burden of living until we can do no more … like Osiris, Jonas or Christ! The hero archetype that we all admire and aspire to because it is virtuous.

      But then, apart from the pragmatism of comprehending human nature, I think of the problem of universals, the essence of ideals, Plato and his proverbial cave. Platonic realism really makes armchair philosophers wonder. And I wonder about a metaphysical reality which must be true by necessity or the teleological impulse wouldn't even manifest in human minds. I'm talking about eternal truths to be distinguished from fleeting physical realities as well as minds themselves.

      Yes, as reason would have it, that which is created in time must come to an end with temporal finality. But some things, whether or not they are eloquently captured by human minds or these merely catch a glimpse of them, appear to be unalterable, eternal and both immanent and transcendent.
      Last edited by Summerlander; 10-13-2021 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Improvement
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      THE PHASE = waking consciousness during sleep hybridisation at 40Hz of brainwave activity conducive to lucid dreaming and autoscopy.

    2. #27
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      All thoughts will cease to exist at the end of time. No record of them will remain. This includes the highest thoughts upon the highest description of God ever described. There is literally no point, no purpose to thinking about God. Plato's cave is a great depiction of how hopeless the human perception is at discerning what is really going on outside.

      But then you say (& totally redeem yourself), "We can imagine God. And that is real enough to get us to be humble and continue to improve ...."

      We can imagine God and that is enough to punch your ticket and gain entry into the Eternal Realms, if only for a moment.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSr-VWc_7WQ
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    3. #28
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      Ha! Dumb & Dumber, always a comedy classic.

      Those boys needed a dose of Socratic wisdom—in particular, the philosophical aphorism that all we know is we know nothing; it's as true as the 'child being father to the man'. We might come to understand what matter does but we don't know exactly what it is nor do we have a satisfying definition or explanation for it other than energy born out of quantum fluctuations.

      Carl Jung was interested in parapsychology and the occult as he grew up in it—his mother and cousin were mediums! He once had an argument with Sigmund Freud because this one publicly dismissed the paranormal. Jung went as far as producing 'paranormal knocks' that scared the hell out of Freud, who was privately fascinated by the unexplained as irony would have it! Another thing that set Freud apart from Jung is that the former had no place in psychology for notions of meaning. Jung was quite the opposite:

      'The transcendent function is not something one does oneself; it comes rather from experiencing the conflict of opposites.'~Carl Jung

      Perhaps it's no coincidence that Philemon, a character to emerge from Jung's 'active imagination' and depicted in his red book, looks like Freud. After falling out with Freud, Jung underwent a period of mental turmoil. He even slept with a gun under his pillow in case it got so bad that he might need to off himself. But there is a profound wisdom that reminds us to persevere against all odds which is embedded in the following quote:

      'I may not know what I can achieve, but I've seen what I can overcome, and I'll never underestimate myself again.'~Scott Stabile

      Epistemology speaking, the fact that we can only go by what our minds present us with does not foreclose sound observations and great insights. Such appears to be the case in what Jung states here:

      'Philemon and other figures of my fantasies brought home to me the crucial insight that there are things in the psyche which I do not produce, but which produce themselves and have their own life. Philemon represented a force which was not myself. In my fantasies I held conversations with him, and he said things which I had not consciously thought. For I observed clearly that it was he who spoke, not I. He said I treated thoughts as if I generated them myself, but in his view thoughts were like animals in the forest, or people in a room, or birds in the air, and added, “If you should see people in a room, you would not think that you had made those people, or that you were responsible for them.” It was he who taught me psychic objectivity, the reality of the psyche. Through him the distinction was clarified between myself and the object of my thought. He confronted me in an objective manner, and I understood that there is something in me which can say things that I do not know and do not intend, things which may even be directed against me.'~Carl Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections

      Jung first met Philemon, a character who carried a bunch of keys, in a dream and took him to be an expression of superior insight—an oneiric guru, as it were, or the manifestation of the Wise Old Man archetype. Thoughts, memories and dreams may arise in human minds but are not necessarily authored by the so-called rational conscious part that feels compelled to analyse everything in order to formulate some kind of coherent map based on what it has thus far experienced. There is, quite clearly, something else that pulls the strings. The psychoanalyst expresses this sentiment in the following quote:

      'Philemon was simply a superior knowledge, and he taught me psychological objectivity and the actuality of the soul. He formulated and expressed everything which I had never thought.'~Carl Gustav Jung

      I don't know if you've heard of Aion by Carl Jung but Christ is seen as a figure that is so paradoxical and so hard to follow that the concept itself, as chance would have it, manifests only once in time. You cannot see the face of God but if you want to get close to it, you need to take a trip to hell. Aion talks about dimensions in reality made of opposites where the light can be seen to shine brightest when it's surrounded by darkness. Opposites compliment each other and produce a state of harmonious being. The premise of Jung's individuation (self-actualisation) is that we can use our strengths to the best of our ability and corral our weaknesses so that these opposites are integrated to create a transcendent effect. You work towards your maximum potential in a journey of incremental development across time. Make no mistake about this: you will never reach godhood. But in the least, you can improve across time to become a more balanced, virtuous self. In other words, the apotheosis of an individuated self requires work across the ages.

      Throughout the Age of Pisces (redolent of the ichthys) our civilisation, which is predicated on Judeo-Christian values, has both flourished and endured some real hardships—this eon is astrologically marked by two fish, the first of which represents Christ (whose birth is placed right at the beginning) and the second denotes the opposite, that is, the Antichrist (presumably coming at the end), heralding the beginning of nihilism, the veneration of godless states run by self-proclaimed supermen, and manifesting the dangers of totalitarianism.

      What we hope follows is the integration of both opposites, because one gives dimension to the other, and should take place in the Age of Aquarius, the water-bearer. Part of Aion psychologically appraises the hero archetype, an evaluation that is symbolically emphasised by quaternities and, in particular, the cross, two diagrams of which in chapter 5 of the book represent the dogmatic conception of the Messiah as well as the psychological conception of the Self—where the historical Christ is described in the first as 'unique' and 'unitemporal' but also 'universal' and 'eternal' as the Son of God; and in the second as the union of good and evil as well as the spiritual and chthonic realities (the perfect union of opposites).
      Last edited by Summerlander; 10-16-2021 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Improvement
      Labyrinthus likes this.
      THE PHASE = waking consciousness during sleep hybridisation at 40Hz of brainwave activity conducive to lucid dreaming and autoscopy.

    4. #29
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      This integration of opposites does not strike me as a worthy goal but is more of a natural precipitate that manifests when the scales are finally tipped in favor of Compassion (over Fear). Seeking the integration of opposites sounds like an endless squirrel cage of activity going nowhere. It is not humanly possible to even come close to figuring it out. Compassion is the express train to Eternity.

      Trying to figure out the whys and wherefores of this Creation is a fools errand. Teleology is a hifalutin hobby that generally amounts to little more than a giant squirrel cage for the intellectual elites.

      When the Lower Consciousness associated with a physical body finally acquiesces and surrenders all to the Holy Spirit then a conscious building of Eternal Being can proceed in meaningful fashion.

      When the human self makes effort to improve the intellect that is all well and good, especially in one's youth. When it works to improve wealth, status or connections, etc. it has value for that given lifetime but it is all for naught when the lifetime is ended and it is time to hang it up. This lifetime is put away like an old suit in a closet and almost nothing about it carries over into the next cycle/incarnation. Not the education, not the development of the personality... almost nothing....

      The improved ability to surrender to the Holy Spirit and be a source of Compassion is the only timeless, eternal quality that carries over to the next cycle.
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    5. #30
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      It is more of an acknowledgement of opposites and conflicting sub-personalities which enable one on the path to knowing thyself, but for this to take place, a wilful exploration of one's mental content needs to take place whereby unconscious elements are brought to the fore and taken into account. The concept of the Holy Spirit is explored in Aion and it is a necessary and vital component in manifesting Jung's Self archetype. There are other psychologists who would use different terminology and less cryptic language but they convey a similar premise. It is said that Franz was easier to read than Jung and she put it in alchemically analogous terms to convey the psychology, such as the hard elements of the earth containing its beasts, the water and other liquid chemicals that catalyse them and the vapours that are produced. It is curious that alchemists tended to mentally project onto the elements they experimented with as though they had a mind or life of their own.

      What does 'holy spirit' signify for you, Labyrinthus?
      Last edited by Summerlander; Yesterday at 01:36 AM. Reason: Typographical
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      THE PHASE = waking consciousness during sleep hybridisation at 40Hz of brainwave activity conducive to lucid dreaming and autoscopy.

    6. #31
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      Holy Spirit = Creator (in the practical sense)

      In the beginning there was the Word/Holy Spirit. And the Word was God.

      It is best to avoid confusing "mind" with "life". The mind is a created machine that cranks out thoughts like sausages. In general the alchemists confused the Mind with the Eternal. Big mistake.
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    7. #32
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      Brilliant! I'm loving your input. Now we are getting into the nitty-gritty of the divine. But how far can we go? Can we get past the cherubim and seraphim and meet the Big Boss?

      The universe could be thought of as God in sunder. The Holy Spirit first comes as a whole, the One, the insubstantial that produces all substances. In the beginning, the word is Logos, which begins to make distinctions and like a mighty sword severs the union between light and darkness. And so it begins ...

      In God's Debris by Scott Adams, the wise old man tells a young atheist how he is past the phase of disbelieving, and proffers an intriguing hypothesis about how it all began. In the beginning, there was only God, presumably immortal and eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent and almost omniscient; there was just one question that God didn't have the answer to: If I am all these things and nothing is impossible to Me, what happens if I wish to self-destruct?

      So the fearless God pressed the red button on himself, as it were. The moment God set out to answer His paradoxical question was when the Big Bang took place. The entire history of the universe is God answering Himself, having blown Himself to smithereens, undergoing a process of death and rebirth. When the young atheist asks the old man if God is conscious, the latter replies (paraphrasing): 'Yes, He is. He is conscious through me, you and everybody else. And continues to reassemble Himself ...'

      In the preface of his interesting philosophical fiction, Adams makes it clear that he doesn't necessarily believe in such worldview, but points out that the hypothesis itself is eerily profound.

      What are your thoughts on this?
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      THE PHASE = waking consciousness during sleep hybridisation at 40Hz of brainwave activity conducive to lucid dreaming and autoscopy.

    8. #33
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      That is a possibility but I prefer this approach;

      Souls are like skin/muscle cells in the Body of God. The default condition is fine & dandy but with a few trips to gym, pounding away at the sand bag, they develop strength and ability on a whole 'nuther level.

      So God creates this gym and starts pounding away.

      No pain, no gain.

      Sucks to be us but apparently it works for God.

      [& nope... we can't meet the Boss. The skin cells feel the heartbeat and relish the nourishment of the blood flow but the skin cell will never be a heart cell/brain cell. Though in a way... perhaps by way of imagination one can approach the heart of the divine and maybe participate in a wonderful AWARENESS of wholeness of the entire body... to the degree that it can let go of its attachment to its identity as a skin cell].
      Last edited by Labyrinthus; Yesterday at 11:47 PM. Reason: to beef up the original

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