Thread: THE VERY DEVIL

Yes, I have no room for the concept of satan in my personal philosiphy on life. I believe that the concept of satan is based on a representation of the spirit of evil in man. Kind of like the spirit of giving as represented in Santa. He's not the actual thing but, the representation of it.

Along with no belief in satan, obviously I can't believe in hell either. For me, I can't have a beleif in God with the concept of satan or hell. How could an omniptent and all powerful and loving God allow somthing like this to exist? If God is all powerful and always forgiving and loving, how could anyone be damned to an eternity of suffering and pain? What purpose would that serve? And for that matter, the other end of the stick, living in the traditional view of heaven, ie... eternal bliss. That dosen't make sense ether. What's the point? Sounds like a haroin trip that dosen't end. What do you learn? Where do you go from there?

These are questions that drove me from traditional dogmatic religion a long time ago. Those that supposedly had all the answers couldn't answer mine to my satisfaction. I had to find my own path and answer my own questions, hence the profile name.

Personally I think the concept of satan was mostly used in early christianity to scare and convert uneducated people to the church because the roman catholic church, (and many will hate me for saying this) has been through the ages pretty much a government run off of money and power. I hate to say it but, humanity corrupts almost every thing it touches.

[quote]Have you ever given thougt that the devil does not actually exist is terms of a horned beast. Yet rather an adversay alone.
The word satan does not belong to a particualer person or being in the way that the Biblical name Moses belongs to one particular man.
Satan is a Hebrew word wich means "adversary", and an almost identical verb means, "To be an adversary".

Our Adversary is a spirit, not a physical being...

And yet the Oral Tradition of the Luciferian Rebellion against God and the doom of the Fallen Angels gives us a quite specific descriptive Type of this Satanic Adversary. and as soon as one believes in Angels, then the extension is obvious that specific and individual Demons probably also exist, and then why not a Chief Warlord that rules over all of the Demons. After all, if Evil is all about Individual Self-Aggrandizement, then it only makes sense that eventually one particularly cunning and ruthless Demon would be able to consolidate his doiminion over all of the lesser competitors. the Paradox about Freedom is that ultimately only the Most Selfish Individual of all gets to enjoy it, and all other independent souls must bow so that only the most powerful can be Free. One could argue that this could sound like a description of God's Tyranny over the Heavenly Denizens, but this would be to confuse the Competion of the Demons and the results of what befalls a population of losers subjugated by one Winner, with the Community of Cooperation and Sharing that Heaven is under a God of Love and Sharing. The difference would be striking. One can think of Hell as being the Afterlife for Republican's and Heaven being the Afterlife for Democrats. One an open Competition, started in freedom, but finalized in defeat for all Party Members but the single most ruthless cut-throat able to climb over the heads of all others. The other a triumph for all in a community of fairness, equity, community and sharing. One is ruled by one Demon, and the other ruled by One God, but there the similarities end.

Originally posted by willthepathfinder+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(willthepathfinder)</div>

Yes, I have no room for the concept of satan in my personal philosiphy on life. I believe that the concept of satan is based on a representation of the spirit of evil in man. Kind of like the spirit of giving as represented in Santa. He's not the actual thing but, the representation of it.

Along with no belief in satan, obviously I can't believe in hell either. For me, I can't have a beleif in God with the concept of satan or hell. How could an omniptent and all powerful and loving God allow somthing like this to exist? If God is all powerful and always forgiving and loving, how could anyone be damned to an eternity of suffering and pain? What purpose would that serve? And for that matter, the other end of the stick, living in the traditional view of heaven, ie... eternal bliss. That dosen't make sense ether. What's the point? Sounds like a haroin trip that dosen't end. What do you learn? Where do you go from there?

These are questions that drove me from traditional dogmatic religion a long time ago. Those that supposedly had all the answers couldn't answer mine to my satisfaction. I had to find my own path and answer my own questions, hence the profile name.

Personally I think the concept of satan was mostly used in early christianity to scare and convert uneducated people to the church because the roman catholic church, (and many will hate me for saying this) has been through the ages pretty much a government run off of money and power. I hate to say it but, humanity corrupts almost every thing it touches.[/b]

Well Thanks for writing down pretty much what I was thinking in verbatim willthepathfinder .
The only answers I can come up with for some of your questions and mine is that God has created us and he is letting things happen as they will. And you must maintain belief in him through all this otherwise it would be at no sacrifice to you.

<!--QuoteBegin-Awaken4e1
Our Adversary is a spirit, not a physical being...

Ours?? As in yours or everyone? And how many. By using a a presume one. Does it have a name?

Leo.
I read your response twice. And I apologize, but I still do not really know what you believe.
I am sickened by the political commentary.
Bill Clinton in heaven.
I would have never guessed in a million years that you were a Democrat.

[quote]
Leo.
I read your response twice. And I apologize, but I still do not really know what you believe.
I am sickened by the political commentary.
Bill Clinton in heaven.
I would have never guessed in a million years that you were a Democrat. [/color]

What, is Morality so hard to understand? We need only look at the Basis for Morality, which we can do using the Story of Lucifer as a Model. Have you followed that far? Lucifer was Evil because he was selfish and thought he could do better for himself without God and without the Heavenly Community acting as a drag upon his Ambitions. Still following? Well, what does that sound like except that it reminds us of the Political Conservativism of the Republicans and the Tories?

And what is wrong, Morally, with Bill Clinton? You know, it is some Political Slight of hand that the Paulists and Protestants had always insisted on, to forget about Real Morality and to focus upon issues of personal hygiene -- sex and drinking and such. But what bearing does sex and that kind of thing have upon the ones Moral Bearing toward the Community? Look at Bill Clinton and his Political Accomplishments. Peace in Ireland, almost success in the Near East, 8 years without War in Iraq, Pacification of the Balkans without sending in Troops, and a policy of treating China as a Friend, where the Republican's are clearly targetting China for the Next Great War. Clinton wanted Universal Health Care. Indeed, Clinton was a Virtual Angel compared to all of your "Let Them Eat Cake" Republicans and Tories.

Originally posted by Leo Volont


What, is Morality so hard to understand? We need only look at the Basis for Morality, which we can do using the Story of Lucifer as a Model. Have you followed that far? Lucifer was Evil because he was selfish and thought he could do better for himself without God and without the Heavenly Community acting as a drag upon his Ambitions. Still following? Well, what does that sound like except that it reminds us of the Political Conservativism of the Republicans and the Tories?

And what is wrong, Morally, with Bill Clinton? You know, it is some Political Slight of hand that the Paulists and Protestants had always insisted on, to forget about Real Morality and to focus upon issues of personal hygiene -- sex and drinking and such. But what bearing does sex and that kind of thing have upon the ones Moral Bearing toward the Community? Look at Bill Clinton and his Political Accomplishments. Peace in Ireland, almost success in the Near East, 8 years without War in Iraq, Pacification of the Balkans without sending in Troops, and a policy of treating China as a Friend, where the Republican's are clearly targetting China for the Next Great War. Clinton wanted Universal Health Care. Indeed, Clinton was a Virtual Angel compared to all of your \"Let Them Eat Cake\" Republicans and Tories.

And what is wrong, Morally, with Bill Clinton?------->A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct is apparently hard to understand for someone like Bill Clinton. What a fine example he has set for our youth. Maybe adultery is not a moral standard anymore. So go ahead and link him with others of the same catagoery. I don't know how that would make it right or what your point is here.
So I see your correlation from politicians and good and evil.
But I thought we were discussing whether the devil existed or not. You have addressed the issue as if he does exist with no response to the possibility he is only a Model of evil.
I am not even going to go and get into our political differences.

Suffering and pain clearly are real; the question is whether this suffering is intentionally brought to the world or not.

In the first case - intentional evil - we have demons, Satan and other willing and powerful entitites.

In the second case - unintentional evil - suffering is without sense, it occurs just randomly.

I think that the most unjust and untolerable suffering is that with no sense, with no aim. That's why a world with some entity to blame and fight is more livable.

We, as human beings, need to make sense of things, even of suffering. Religions that establish the link "You suffer because you' re bad" are one of the most frequent example of suffering sense-making. "You suffer because of Satan" in a way is less dangerous, since it does not point the finger toward our soul.

It's what a psychologist would call the "locus of control": we control the reality or the reality controls us? The evil is inside us and then we have the responsibility for it or the evil has its own mind and will?

eXistenZ

"eXistenZ"

Suffering and pain clearly are real; the question is whether this suffering is intentionally brought to the world or not.
[/b]

Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

In the first case - intentional evil - we have demons, Satan and other willing and powerful entitites [/b]

.

Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

We, as human beings, need to make sense of things, even of suffering. Religions that establish the link \"You suffer because you’re bad\" are one of the most frequent examples of suffering sense-making. \"You suffer because of Satan\" in a way is less dangerous, since it does not point the finger toward our soul.[/b]

Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Heb 5:8 through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered--the obedience,

It's what a psychologist would call the \"locus of control\": we control the reality or the reality controls us? The evil is inside us and then we have the responsibility for it or the evil has its own mind and will?
[/b]

2Co 10:5 reasonings bringing down, and every high thing lifted up against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of the Christ,

The Rev.

Originally posted by Howetzer

Ours?? As in yours or everyone? And how many. By using a a presume one. Does it have a name?

Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called &#96;Devil,' and &#96;the Adversary-satan,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

P.S. God has no adversary...

The serpent race is usually the adversary that dominates during the earlier stages. Trying to use people such as hitler for example to lower the vibration enough allowing them to incarnate from their astral state and influence. Thus giving them much more power.

In the bible there is a particular part that mentions worshipping the beast which also has several meanings. "who can stand up to the beast" "all will be amazed at the beast power" or something to that effect. If the serpent race secured itself here in this way, these particular verses would then be physically relevant in the way that it would be very difficult to fight such a force once secured. Due to its expertise in it's deceptive influence.

In rare cases this race will eliminate the human race all together. The human race during the awakening, faces a war with the serpent race as the serpent race tries to cling on to what power they are losing as a result, while the human race, coming closer to being eliminated in these stages, usually rises up and is the race who prevails in the end 90% of the time, due to fact their DNA is more fitting for the spiritual energies. While the serpent race is more in tune with supernatural abilities and highly physically sensitive, therfore attracting them strongly to maya, and hence very difficult for them to pull themself away from these physical passions, and percieve the higher selfless energies.

Originally posted by Nirvana
In rare cases this race will eliminate the human race all together. The human race during the awakening, faces a war with the serpent race as the serpent race tries to cling on to what power they are losing as a result, while the human race, coming closer to being eliminated in these stages, usually rises up and is the race who prevails in the end 90% of the time, due to fact their DNA is more fitting for the spiritual energies. While the serpent race is more in tune with supernatural abilities and highly physically sensitive, therfore attracting them strongly to maya, and hence very difficult for them to pull themself away from these physical passions, and percieve the higher selfless energies.

Sir, put down the 20 sided dice and step away from the Monster Manual.

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called &#96;Devil,' and &#96;the Adversary-satan,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

P.S. God has no adversary...

Are you saying God does not, but do we?
In all honesty I am not sure where you are coming from with your Biblical references.
Are we inherently evil? And if so, we were create in Gods image. So is he evil

Nirvana Starseed.
My case is that I can relate adversary or explain in most cases a contradictory point to the devil being a living creature.

[quote]

Are you saying God does not, but do we?
In all honesty I am not sure where you are coming from with your Biblical references.
Are we inherently evil? And if so, we were create in Gods image. So is he evil

Nirvana Starseed.
My case is that I can relate adversary or explain in most cases a contradictory point to the devil being a living creature.

In order to have an adversary, there must be a relative power measurably equal between the enemies. There is not such a measurability common to God, and satan. Only between what man thinks satan possesses, and what power man possesses is an equally measurable.

The Rev.

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


In order to have an adversary, there must be a relative power measurably equal between the enemies. There is not such a measurability common to God, and satan. Only between what man thinks satan possesses, and what power man possesses is an equally measurable.

The Rev.

There is not such a measurability common to God, and satan.

So do you believe the devil to exist or no? Just not of equal power????

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
In order to have an adversary, there must be a relative power measurably equal between the enemies. There is not such a measurability common to God, and satan. Only between what man thinks satan possesses, and what power man possesses is an equally measurable.

The Rev.

But this interpretation seems in conflict with your previous biblical quote: In this citation the evil has the same level of power of God.

What we should take as correct: the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible?

eXistenZ[/color]

[quote]

There is not such a measurability common to God, and satan.

So do you believe the devil to exist or no? Just not of equal power????

satan is real, but only as powerful as we allow him to be...

Yeah I understand your case howezter, I would say you are one of the wiser ones here at dv, and I agree with it.

I just took the oportunity to explain a bit about the adversay as it relates to this aspect/process of evolution in the universe as it plays out generally.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nirvana Starseed)</div>

Yeah I understand your case howezter, I would say you are one of the wiser ones here at dv, and I agree with it.

I just took the oportunity to explain a bit about the adversay as it relates to this aspect/process of evolution in the universe as it plays out generally.[/b]

Well thank you Nirvana Stardseed. There are not that many compliments floating around in this area.

And yours was very insightful. I liked it in context to evolution rather than the usual doctrine. Some of it was over my head I think.

<!--QuoteBegin-Awaken4e1
satan is real, but only as powerful as we allow him to be...

Well there you have it. "WE"! Satan exist only through us not as a --->

Well how did Johnny get that fiddle of gold then?

Originally posted by InTheMoment
Well how did Johnny get that fiddle of gold then?

uuummm....He out did "himself"

Originally posted by InTheMoment
Well how did Johnny get that fiddle of gold then?

In exchange for the most valuable thing in the Super-verse...His soul!

[quote] In this citation the evil has the same level of power of God.

What we should take as correct: the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible?

eXistenZ

No, it has only what God gives him, and brother it ain't no where even equal to God's power, not by a long shot! The devil can only do what God allows him to do. And if his power comes from God, how can some one who receives his power from the one whom he is at war with, when he gives him the power in the first place?

The Rev.

Originally posted by Rev+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rev)</div>

No, it has only what God gives him, and brother it ain't no where even equal to God's power, not by a long shot! The devil can only do what God allows him to do. And if his power comes from God, how can some one who receives his power from the one whom he is at war with, when he gives him the power in the first place? [/b]

But then you stated this...
<!--QuoteBegin-Rev
satan is real, but only as powerful as we allow him to be...

So which is it?

<emphasis mine on the above quotes>

Originally posted by Rev
No, it has only what God gives him, and brother it ain't no where even equal to God's power, not by a long shot! The devil can only do what God allows him to do. And if his power comes from God, how can some one who receives his power from the one whom he is at war with, when he gives him the power in the first place?

Good grief. If it did not seem as if it were all a game before this, really re institutes that notion.