Thread: Does god ever tire?

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Wow...very informative site! I now have enough reading material to keep me out of trouble for awhile.

Just remember your challenging the people who do not understand the essence of the religion here. Those who understand it do not take every word of the bible litrally.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Just remember your challenging the people who do not understand the essence of the religion here. Those who understand it do not take every word of the bible litrally.

The problem is, during religious debates theist will quote the bible directly (ie. applying a literal interpretation) as proof and support of their various claims.

Then they choose to interpret it metaphorically when you point out another passage that directly contradicts their statement (or they just ignore it).

This process has happened countless times on this forum alone.

Furthermore...literally, metaphorically, who cares. A contradiction is a contradiction.

Choosing to interpret the bible anyway you want is different to understanding the real interpretation, and sticking to it. One who is close to understanding the source does not play games and interpret it as he sees fit. Not only is this inappropriate, but there is no incentive for the honest seeker to lie or cover up anything that does not make sense.

If it's meaning is not suppose to be litral in all cases. This makes a big difference about what it means. Did you consider that the bible does not have to be litral word for word correct, according to your perception? This is not even considering the accuracy or mistranslations of the bible. If there is a contradiction anywhere it s because of either 2 things. 1, your lack of understanding about what is been writtin makes it apear to you as a contradiction. 2, a mistranslation.

Truth does not contradict itself. And the original inspiration from the bible was truth. I admit no souce of information can be 100% correct. This is where you have to use your own discernment. But pointing out things that seem to contradict to you, without trying to understand them I see as fruitless.

Originally posted by Nirvana
Choosing to interpret the bible anyway you want is different to understanding the real interpretation, and sticking to it. One who is close to understanding the source does not play games and interpret it as he sees fit. Not only is this inappropriate, but there is no incentive for the honest seeker to lie or cover up anything that does not make sense.

If it's meaning is not suppose to be litral in all cases. This makes a big difference about what it means. Did you consider that the bible does not have to be litral word for word correct, according to your perception? This is not even considering the accuracy or mistranslations of the bible. If there is a contradiction anywhere it s because of either 2 things. 1, your lack of understanding about what is been writtin makes it apear to you as a contradiction. 2, a mistranslation

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So are you saying that you know the true interpretation and meaning of the Bible?

Dear Inthemoment

Much that the Hebrews wrote in regards to God was done in the spirit of eulogy or downright flattery, or perhaps in the vain of wishful thinking, hoping that God would conform to their optimistic descriptions.

The Truth is that God operates through Agency, that is, God exercises His Providence in the World through the ministration of His Angels and perhaps even through His Saints, though perhaps the main contributions of His Saints are attributable to His Angels.

And these Angels may at time be effected by mood. Angels may perhaps at times feel somewhat demoralized. Indeed, Legend tells us that Angels can even be rebellious, and that a full One Third of the Angels, setting out to be Free Individuals, were stripped of their Divine Credentials and given over to Demonic Status.

I had a dream just the other night in which I saw what might have been a Corp of Battle Angels. What was remarkable about them was their apparent weariness. No enthusiasm. No hussle and bussle. There was a grim but a slow determination.

One can only hope that the Forces of Evil are likewise tired of the Eternal Struggle.

Leo the power of evil does not compare, to one in alignment with the soul. It relies on humanity as a channel. I can understand what your dream had to say. But I assure you that the solar angel is not short of spiritual energy and can never lose to lower forces than itself. It's a slow and steady process, that requires patience indeed. But it will prevail to acomplish the purpose, all creation moves in pain until this point is reached. (Soul alignment) Then will come the more abundant life of which christ spoke.

By the way I'm reading your comment u made in my thread and will update it soon.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Leo the power of evil does not compare, to one in alignment with the soul, I can understand what your dream had to say. But I assure you that the solar angel is not short of spiritual energy and can never lose to lower forces than itself.

By the way I'm reading your comment u made in my thread and will update it soon.

I like your Spirit. But you must be disregarding History which shows, if anything, that Evil has been consistently kicking the Ass of Righteousness. Yes, I am still willing to stand with the Banner of Righteousness, and I know that the Prophecies say that Righteousness will eventually reign Victorious, but then I remember that Persia's Zoroastrian Empire was over-ridden by Barbarism; that Catholic Civilization was overthrown by a most exaggerated and self-confident Evil which grows in the World even as we speak. World Leaders gloat that Evil is the New Virtue. So, how in the face of this preponderance of Evil, can you assert the Omnipotence of Good?

Yes, God may have Full Sway in his own Proximity. God enjoys full Jurisdiction over Heaven. But perhaps the problems occur in the Material Realm because the World is frankly closer to Hell than it is to Heaven. We may liken it to how a clear night of a 100,000 Stars is still very very Black, because these stars are simply too far off to shed much light, and the plants on the ground lie and wilt while waiting for the Morning Sun.

The glory of the sons of god is closer than you think. When all seems hopelessly lost, that last hour is the darkest hour until dawn.

Originally posted by Leo
Angels may perhaps at times feel somewhat demoralized. Indeed, Legend tells us that Angels can even be rebellious

Well...Dogma is a good movie...but a legend? I dunno. I guess I see where you're coming from. Kevin Smith is a friggin genius.

Originally posted by bradybaker

Well...Dogma is a good movie...but a legend? I dunno. I guess I see where you're coming from. Kevin Smith is a friggin genius.

"Dogma" was not a good movie... it never decided whether it wanted to be a comedy or a tragedy, and it seriously wanted direction. It came across as a sophmoric home-movie... a skit done impromptu without a script. Just look at "Jagged Little Pill" whatshername's part (oh, Alanis Morrisette, that girl who wowed the Music World for 5 whole minutes with a few angry songs, but who never was able to repeat herself and became a very curious bore)... her role was embarrassingly stupid.

So, no, if such a Movie as "Dogma" is still within reach of your sensibilities, then you can consider yourself still as very very low.

When I referred to 'Legends' I was speaking of the Oral Tradition of the Heavenly Rebellion. Few people know that though this Legend is referred to from within the Bible, it is not specified in detail, but comes down to us from word of mouth... though Milton's Paradise Lost has given us some assurance that the Story will never ever be quite forgotten.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
The glory of the sons of god is closer than you think. When all seems hopelessly lost, that last hour is the darkest hour until dawn.

Oh, speaking of dawn... that dream I had of the Men assembling in formation for Battle... it was still just dark with enough light in the sky to discern the faces of the men. The Glowing Banner was made all that much brighter in the contrast of the still dark sky. The Sun had not yet broken the horizon.

I remember from back in my old sport motorcycling days that I used to call that time of Dawn the 'best light'. Without the sun yet in the sky, the diffuse light of the morning sky was luminous enough to show the road, but without the sun there were not yet distorting shadows, or that blinding brilliance when turning into the East.

But back to the subject at hand... optimism. We need to remember that even the Coming of the Messiah made very little of a dent in the ambient Evil of the World. Actually, Zarathustra, perhaps a thousand years before Jesus, made more of a moral impact than the Historic Christ (the Zoroastrian 3 Kings of the East, we remember, are the only persons in Christ's Time to show Him any real befitting respect, and that respect we can attribute to Zarathustra). But we should appreciate that while Zoroastrianism brought the World the Moral Awareness of a Duty toward Righteousness, it also pointed out that the previously all-accepted Law of the Jungle was in fact an Evil which should be shunned by a Spiritual Humanity. Frightfully, we are now returning to a decline in which once again the Law of the Jungle -- Freedom -- is seen as the Ideal.

If this Sudden Light does Dawn upon Humanity, what, then, do you envision happening? Do you suppose that all of these Slavers, Spoilers and Republicans will suddenly just 'see the Light' and all at once realize they should be Good. Or do you suppose that the Great Light will be to them a Great Heat, and that it will burn them up. I would not begrudge anybody having a change of heart... oh no, I really can't say that. I really do hope that the selfish pricks that now oppress the world will get at least some measure of retribution. it just would not be entirely right if such people could finish kicking dirt in everyone else's faces and living like predators and parasites, and then just shove into the Front of the Line and march into paradise and claim the best seats there too.

First of all, relax, I was kidding.

Second of all, although the movie kinda falls apart in the end, it still makes a number of thought-provoking observations and criticisms regarding organized religion, specifically Catholicism.

Originally posted by Leo
comes down to us from word of mouth

Yeah, and we all know what a reliable method that is.

If you consider the Bible to be anything more than a decent fiction 'in need of direction', you sir are still very, very low.

Originally posted by InTheMoment
First off, let me say that the topic question is directed towards those who take the words of the Bible as infallible and not contradicting.

In the book of Isaiah it says...

40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Yet in Exodus it is stated...

31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

The place of rest in which God rests in is within a people, through whom He is in perpetual rest and oneness. He is no longer in strife with man. He is 'At Rest' in man.

Originally posted by bradybaker
First of all, relax, I was kidding.

Second of all, although the movie kinda falls apart in the end, it still makes a number of thought-provoking observations and criticisms regarding organized religion, specifically Catholicism.


Yeah, and we all know what a reliable method that is.

If you consider the Bible to be anything more than a decent fiction 'in need of direction', you sir are still very, very low.

Again, Brady, DO YOU EVER PAY ATTENTION TO WHO YOU ARE SPEAKING TO?

I have published more than a dozen times that Valid Religion, Catholicism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism have more than enough DOCUMENTED EMPIRICAL REVELATIONS that have occurred well since the publication of the Bible, that the Bible is reduced to a mere foot note in consequence.

It only shows how desparate you must be, as an Atheist, that you absolutely have to revert to arguing against the Bible in order to find an argument that you feel you can defend. You have to go back 2000 years in order to argue against Religion.

Why don't you get up to date. Your habitual irrelevance is becoming tedious.

(Why do you always post a response here AND send it to me in a private message?)

Oh sorry sir, I didn't really I was speaking to a bonafied religious 'expert' on empirical proof of God.

Since you're such an intelligent guy, I would love to hear your opinions on the psychology of religion and other related phenomenon such as confirmation bias, belief bias and belief perserverance. Also, please share with me your thoughts on the evolutionary advantages of beliefs such as 'afterlife'.

The Bible is no more a valid source to quote than any other fiction.....Fact is what people should be quoting in the first place. Whatever you believe, get the facts and quote those. The Bible isn't based upon fact. Oh, and being a religious expert doesn't mean a thing, except that you can remember a lot of crap that probably didn't happen in the first place. Knowing cultural differences in religion is obviously handy, but how can you be an expert in something that hasn't even been proven? In this area, I agree with Brady......

Originally posted by Leo Volont@ in a private message to me (I don't understand why you can't just reply here),
We can get around to real Religious Discussion, but don't ask me to get into what amounts to Hate Speech against Religion, which is often the assumption when Clinical People think they are studying impartially. *They become selective and patronizing in what they choose to examine, and they are careful to ever miss the True Point of anything. *You could not expect me to really enjoy following you into such a perspective, could you.

If you want to know about Religion you will have to stop this silliness of being on the Outside looking in.... or learning about food by examining the paper of the menu.

The psychological concepts mentioned above (conf. bias, bel. bias, bel. pers.) were not the result of studies targeting the psychology of religion (for reasons that you thought they were, see 'spotlight effect'). These well studied concepts, however, apply nicely to theists. In fact, these principle even predict that you would refer to the psychology of such things as "hate speech against religion".

Belief perserverance: persistence of one's intial conceptions, as when the basis for one's belief is discredited but an explanation of why this belief might be true survives.

Confirmation bias: a tendency to search for infomation that confirms one's preconceptions and ignore discrediting information.

If you'd like for me to summarize a few key studies involving the concepts I'd be happy to.

PS. Before you reply, ask yourself, 'would Christ be such a condescending bastard?'.

Originally posted by Leo
it just would not be entirely right if such people could finish kicking dirt in everyone else's faces and living like predators and parasites, and then just shove into the Front of the Line and march into paradise and claim the best seats there too.

No. The first will be last and the last will be first. The un-believing, the immoral, the stuborn, the sinful, the ones who spent their days in luxury, living off the labour of others, without lifting a finger to help, or to release the heavy burden they made them carry. These kind of people all these days have merely set themself up for the slaughter, they cannot possibly claim a rank in christs kingdom. They will be 'outside the gates' in pestilence. And Instead great misery awaits them, for now they recieve the place they have earnt for themself. They have reaped what they have sown. And when christs kingdom manifests aspirants and disciples, that have known from the beginning, and lived righteous lives, followed the highest, used their faith and discipline in themself, to acend to the atomic level of mastery within themself. From All that they have learnt through their own effort, sacrificed of themselves and their service for this sake shall not compare, to the glory they are to recieve.

Originally posted by Gwendolyn
The Bible is no more a valid source to quote than any other fiction.....Fact is what people should be quoting in the first place. Whatever you believe, get the facts and quote those. The Bible isn't based upon fact. Oh, and being a religious expert doesn't mean a thing, except that you can remember a lot of *crap that probably didn't happen in the first place. Knowing cultural differences *in religion is obviously handy, but how can you be an expert in something that hasn't even been proven? In this area, I agree with Brady......

Well, with the same token there are more many experts in TV dramas and mass media studies: do they are just experts in "crap"? I would say no: they talk about something that does not exist and they can be fine sociologists and scholars. I see lots of useful "truths" in studies about Star Trek (cfr. the works by Robert Kozinets).
Harold Bloom wrote a wonderful book about American religion that provides many insights in the history and the culture of the US. He would have not do this if he would have not considered this topic as worth a study.

The main problem in religious debates is that both sides put themselves in a fundamentalist stance: "it exists" against "it does not exist".
Le'ts meet in the middle.

eXistenZ

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed


No. The first will be last and the last will be first. The un-believing, the immoral, the stuborn, the sinful, the ones who spent their days in luxury, living off the labour of others, without lifting a finger to help, or to release the heavy burden they made them carry. These kind of people all these days have merely set themself up for the slaughter, they cannot possibly claim a rank in christs kingdom. They will be 'outside the gates' in pestilence. And Instead great misery awaits them, for now they recieve the place they have earnt for themself. They have reaped what they have sown. And when christs kingdom manifests aspirants and disciples, that have known from the beginning, and lived righteous lives, followed the highest, used their faith and discipline in themself, to acend to the atomic level of mastery within themself. From All that they have learnt through their own effort, sacrificed of themselves and their service for this sake shall not compare, to the glory they are to recieve.

Cool!

I appreciate that you recognize the dilemma inherent in an unconditional Forgiveness. Ordinarily I like to maintain the hardest line against Sinners (deliberate Sinners who make their careers out of predating and exploiting others... not the accidental sinner, who may sin only from out of circumstances and passions), but since you have taken that Line for me, I frees me up to consider another possibility. One wonders whether Sin is entirely substantial with the Sinner; whether Sin is an inseparable part of their Soul; whether their Sinful Character is an inextricable part of who they are; OR whether a finite time in Hell or Upper Purgatory might not be sufficient to humble them, and moralize them. For instance, one wonders whether one could take like a Republican Oil Millionaire, let us say, and by putting him through certain sufferings, that even such as he would not eventually awaken to some sense of empathy for the rest of Humanity and a appreciation that the Collectivity of All Souls may be about at least as important to the Universe and to God as he himself who had previously been his most important moral responsibility.

Purgatory is allowed to have a purifying affect upon the souls who are repentent. Why should it not also have a beneficial effect upon souls are go into Hell as completely unregenerate. The difference may be in Degree not so much in kind. Perhaps Repentent Souls are only repentent because they have once tasted Suffering. We must consider that some souls die before ever having had a bad day and so it never occurs to them to be sorry for what had only given them delight, pleasure and amusement. Hell, for them, then, might be a usefully educating experience.

I would not mind sharing Heaven with Souls with even the worst Earthly Histories, as long as they were substantially changed for the better.

yeah, the kingdom of god is open to anyone. And all will enter eventually. There is only one way to enter. Upon entering they will not be anything less than pure in heart, and will have learnt much from their experience. This is speaking on the physical plane. When the entity has made soul contact, and freed themself from the pull of matter, nothing will disturb their joy, as they then know the will of the soul as their own. From this connection they will know the truth and it will make them free.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
yeah, the kingdom of god is open to anyone. And all will enter eventually. There is only one way to enter. Upon entering they will not be anything less than pure in heart, and will have learnt much from their experience. This is speaking on the physical plane. When the entity has made soul contact, and freed themself from the pull of matter, nothing will disturb their joy, as they then know the will of the soul as their own. From this connection they will know the truth and it will make them free.

It is odd to be in such agreement with anybody around here.

may I add that one of the most common Dream Motifs may help us in dissociating from this "pull of matter" that you mention, and that is the Dream Motif of losing things and obsessing over going back to find them. All of these dreams are practice for when we leave behind our Physical Animality at death and then have a chance to Translate to Spirit. If we go back to look for our Animal Flesh and Appetites, then we might really be screwed. This is why such as you, Nirvana Starseed, with an obvious Spiritual Ambition and Longing has something of an advantage. At your death, you will be blasting off for the earliest chance at a Spiritual Transcendental Translation. I hope I do myself. But many people will not give anything a second thought except the impossible oddessey of trying to find the body that was lost to them.

Just the other night I believe I screwed up by going back for my Car in a dream. what an obvious symbol for the body, a car is. I should make it a point of never going back to find anything. When something is needed, then an Angel will step up and say so.