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    1. #1
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      A note to the witnesses

      My aunt & uncle are Jehovah's witness. She has been for many years. I try to take many aspects into play when I discuss different religions.
      I have invited her in. We would study from time to time.
      I have accompanied my friend to a christian church for a little over a year two.
      I, at one point studied with the Church of the Abrahamic Faith.

      I have my reasons for harboring some resentment towards my aunt and her faith. But I have tried to understand things first.
      I even have tried to facilitate using my lucid dreams to confront her, to no avail.
      When I talk to her face to face, they are all alike. Brain washed zombies. You cannot hold an OPEN discussion with these people.
      So to get these feeling of resentment off my chest I am going to right my aunt and uncle a letter.
      My hopes are that, with your help... I can compile a structured letter that they may possibly open their small little world. For they shut my mothers down. And there is no getting that back.
      I suspect it will fall upon deaf ears. But I will fall asleep more sound.
      Please put in any information that you think may get through their structured wall of naive thinking.
      Rebuttal is welcome too of coarse.

    2. #2
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Sadly I think you are right, it proably will not open their eyes. It really frustrates me that I when I have a conversation with a believer you can never get past the point of: 'God does exist, I just know he does'. There is nothing to do against blind faith <=/

      Is your mom a 'brainwashed zombie' aswell? I do hope not. My dad grew up in a rather religious family aswell and I am glad that he did not 'turned to the darkside' . Growing up in a religious environment it's very hard not to be blinded aswell. That's what I find cool about my dad... (ofcouse I do hate him, it's my duty as a kid nah not hate.)

      Anyway: If you do write a letter, try bringing it in a way that will maybe make them think... but even then, a religious person hardly ever drops his faith, becouse then his world as he thought is was is broken.

      Good luck with it. Don't feel to bad about it. They can't realy help it. They too were brainwashed by someone. By their parents or by someone else, probably in a time of weakness.

      <3
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    3. #3
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Neruo
      Sadly I think you are right, it proably will not open their eyes. It really frustrates me that I when I have a conversation with a believer you can never get past the point of: 'God does exist, I just know he does'. *There is nothing to do against blind faith *
      Is your mom a 'brainwashed zombie' aswell? I do hope not. My dad grew up in a rather religious family aswell and I am glad that he did not 'turned to the darkside' . *Growing up in a religious environment it's very hard not to be blinded aswell. That's what I find cool about my dad... (ofcouse I do hate him, it's my duty as a kid nah not hate.)
      Anyway: If you do write a letter, try bringing it in a way that will maybe make them think... but even then, a religious person hardly ever drops his faith, becouse then his world as he thought is was is broken.
      Good luck with it. Don't feel to bad about it. They can't realy help it. They too were brainwashed by someone. By their parents or by someone else, probably in a time of weakness.
      I don't feel they consciously wish harm on anyone. In fact, quite the opposite. But the fact is they do it intentionally. This is what disturbs me.
      My mom has passed away.
      She had several mental breakdowns do to the fact that she felt required to convert us. Other wise our entire family would be condemned to hell, provided she does not. brainwash us into believing what they say.

      Thanks for your input!

    4. #4
      Member eyeofgames's Avatar
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      [quote]

      I don't feel they consciously wish harm on anyone. In fact, quite the opposite. But the fact is they do it intentionally. This is what disturbs me.
      My mom has passed away.
      She had several mental breakdowns do to the fact that she felt required to convert us. Other wise our entire family would be condemned to hell, provided she does not. brainwash us into believing what they say.

      Thanks for your input!


      That is odd considering that JWs don't belive there is a hell.
      Flowmogotoe
      Lucid Dreams:9

      "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."

    5. #5
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by eyeofgames


      That is odd considering that JWs don't belive there is a hell.

      Purgatory, hell on earth. Pretty much the same thing no?
      A fear installed into you or you will live for ever in this hell.
      If this is not correct then please enlighten me.

      Heaven and Hell is written in the bible so ofcourse the witnesses believe in them. Only you have to get accurate knowledge of them.
      Heaven is where God resides with his son Jesus and the angels. Others will join the heavenly rank to rule the earth after armageddon. Jesus would be the greatest king but he will have 144 000 helpers with him (mentioned in Revelation) and they will rule over righteous men from a heavenly government.

    6. #6
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      [quote]

      I don't feel they consciously wish harm on anyone. In fact, quite the opposite. But the fact is they do it intentionally. This is what disturbs me.
      My mom has passed away.
      She had several mental breakdowns do to the fact that she felt required to convert us. Other wise our entire family would be condemned to hell, provided she does not. brainwash us into believing what they say.

      Thanks for your input!


      Jesus that is sick.... I do not mind religions, for in most cases they are build on love, respect and helping the less fortunate among us. But most of the time it does not go that way. They allways try to convert everyone and honestly think that everyone that does not believe in god will go to hell. (or the on-earth hell thiny)

      That is what's really wrong about relgion, why should god need to treathen everyone with a hell. Just the fact that according to the die-hard-christians everyone that does not share their vision of god will burn in hell makes, no matter how good of a person they are, makes me very negative towards every form of religion.

      Hmm I kind of lost track. But anyway, those jehova witnesses are crazy. I mean it basically forces the parents to convert everyone otherwise They will go to 'hell' awell... that's even worse then the christian beliefs.

      Compliments on not getting brainwashed... well atleast we all know your mom did not really go to hell or anything. I rather see dead as the ultimate neutral thing. It's like a dreamless sleep you never wake up from.. becouse you don't really exist. Yet there is nothing wrong with it. There is no pain or anything too : )

      .... well... next time one of those jerks comes to my door I am going to say that I just converted 10000 people to satanism and that we are urinating on crosses 5 times a day. >: ( lol.

      ---

      Anyway Howetzer, it's nice that you arn't blinded by relgion and can do what makes you human: think for yourself
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    7. #7
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      Let's not get off topic. The point is to construct a well-written letter.

      Now, partially, this is to let you sleep easier, right Howetzer? But obviously it would be a plus if you could actually show them the wrongs of their ways and get them to change. That means that the letter can't be overtly opposed to anything they believe in. If they read something that says something contrary to their beliefs, or something that seems to be trying to convince them that they're wrong, they won't read it. Or they will read it, but not really listen to anything said in the letter. Best thing is to make the letter out so that religion isn't the issue. Don't mention anything contrary to their beliefs, but keep away from saying anything that coincides with their beliefs as well. If you make it sound like "I agree with everything but this", you'll still set off their alarms and they'll stop reading, deeming it a veiled assault on their beliefs. Best to start with something that they won't immediately connect with religion.

      Though it would be nice if we knew more about the situation. Perhaps if you could give a brief overview of what you want the letter to include, or just write a rough draft? Or just give us background, and tell us what you would like your aunt to change? It'd help us to find somewhere to start.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    8. #8
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Tsen
      Let's not get off topic. The point is to construct a well-written letter.

      Now, partially, this is to let you sleep easier, right Howetzer? But obviously it would be a plus if you could actually show them the wrongs of their ways and get them to change. That means that the letter can't be overtly opposed to anything they believe in. If they read something that says something contrary to their beliefs, or something that seems to be trying to convince them that they're wrong, they won't read it. Or they will read it, but not really listen to anything said in the letter. Best thing is to make the letter out so that religion isn't the issue. Don't mention anything contrary to their beliefs, but keep away from saying anything that coincides with their beliefs as well. If you make it sound like "I agree with everything but this", you'll still set off their alarms and they'll stop reading, deeming it a veiled assault on their beliefs. Best to start with something that they won't immediately connect with religion.

      Though it would be nice if we knew more about the situation. Perhaps if you could give a brief overview of what you want the letter to include, or just write a rough draft? Or just give us background, and tell us what you would like your aunt to change? It'd help us to find somewhere to start.
      Thank you Tsen for your time and concern.
      I do agree with you. If I include a rough draft, it can then be tweaked from there.
      At this point they are all floating around in my head.
      I will write up a summary and will post it.
      Again, thanks.
      Howie.

    9. #9
      Member MarthaM's Avatar
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      [quote]

      I don't feel they consciously wish harm on anyone. In fact, quite the opposite.

      Sounds like a good start right there.
      Martha
      Phoenix, AZ

      Change your life with your very next thought.
      -Dr Wayne Dyer

    10. #10
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Tsen
      Let's not get off topic. The point is to construct a well-written letter.

      .
      Yeah I guess I kind of lost track. Hmmm. Just make it sure so they will really get your point of view would be nice.
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    11. #11
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Man, this is more difficult than I thought it would be.
      Dancing your way around religion is difficult provided that is the issue. In addition to it being a family member.
      innuendoes maybe?

    12. #12
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      help help hlep

      Well tomorrow is my chance.
      Any last thoughts please.

    13. #13
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      Just remember not to overtly or directly oppose their views at first. Like I said earlier, people have a habit of tuning you out once they think that you're trying to change their mind about something, especially religion. Bring up your points with a curious attitude at first: Act like you want to believe, but you're confused about something. As the conversation moves along, you can grow more overt and in the end you can convey the message that you think they're clearly in the wrong.
      I guess in short, don't start out too strong and scare them off.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    14. #14
      Member Leia's Avatar
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      Re: help help hlep

      Originally posted by Howetzer
      Well tomorrow is my chance.
      Any last thoughts please.
      My mom is a Jehovah's Witness. Good luck with trying to talk to your aunt. Many witnesses can be very hard headed when it comes to it - but in actuality, they aren't supposed to be so stubborn. Several years ago, my mom took me to all her religious outings. What I learned might help you - I used several of the things I mentioned here with success, she doesn't bother to take me to religious outings with her anymore.

      The elders - preacher equivalents - always told everyone there that it was immoral to force anyone into the religion, because God wouldn't want anyone worshipping him that was not doing so whole-heartedly. I wish I could remember what scriptures were used, exactly, because you could have used those against her. However, unless she knows the Bible like the back of her hand, you'd have to use her Bible - because regardless of what anyone thinks, the JW Bible is much different than the Christian (KJV) Bible.

      All witnesses that have become baptized/trained/etc. are brainwashed to believe that it is their "responsibility" to preach to others and to convert them - mostly family members/friends, but also strangers. This is why your aunt probably preaches to you/your family/her friends often.

      Witnesses are constantly told not to preach to someone who doesn't want to be preached to. I've seen people come close to being ex-communicated (disfellowshipped) from the congregation for trying to force their beliefs on others. A suggestion would be to go to one of the elders in the congregation (they're usually the ones that give the speeches on Sundays... in fact, you could probably ask anyone in the congregation who the elders were, and they'd direct you to one). Not all witnesses are brainwashed zombies - some of them actually listen to you when you talk, and are actually knowledgable in other beliefs and (if they don't try to convert you first) will take your beliefs to mind.

      Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>
      Purgatory, hell on earth. Pretty much the same thing no?
      A fear installed into you or you will live for ever in this hell.
      If this is not correct then please enlighten me. [/b]
      Witnesses, to my knowledge, do not believe in a literal hell with fire and such like many Christians do. They believe all witnesses (or witnesses in the making) will go to live on a paradise after armageddon, and the rest will just live in a permanent state of ... total unconsciousness. Many witnesses will tell you that hell is the place everyone goes to after they die, kind of like a waiting room.

      <!--QuoteBegin-Howetzer

      I don't feel they consciously wish harm on anyone. In fact, quite the opposite.
      You are correct; in fact, you could say that by trying to convert people in your family, you are harming their mentality. 9 times out of 10, she'll probably argue with you by saying, "But I'm only trying to help you!" ... which you could repeat yourself if you wanted to, "Well, you aren't helping me..."

      I hope I helped, and not just spewed out a pointless novel

    15. #15
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Thank you both Tsen & Leia.
      I will post how it went Monday.

      I certainly will follow your advice. I don't want a confrontation by any means. I just would like to NOT have a one sided discussion as it always seems to be.

    16. #16
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      I brought up a Website on Jehovah's witnesses.. Watchtower... ring a bell. the first thing I noticed was they are against the Doctrine of the Trinity. Good for them.

      Oh, by the way... "Father Son and Holy Spirit" was a Greek Misunderstanding... a mistranslation of what the Jewish Scribes would do as a Shorthand for "Abraham the Father, Isaac the Son, and the Lineage of Jacob" to identify the Ethnic Source of Hebrew Judaism. So, in the Gospel of Mathew, where we have Christ asking his Disciples to Baptism people in the Name of "Father Son and Holy Spirit", MY GOD did the Greeks get it WRONG. Jesus was asking that people CONVERT TO JUDAISM -- To be Baptized into the Religion of Abraham the Father, Isaac the Son and the Lineage of Jacob.

      Of course, Paul wanted to get away from Judaism, didn't He. So it would have been his Agenda to purposefully Misinterpret this Judaic Triad.



      And then I get the feeling from this WatchTower Page that they do not believe in Medical Treatment. This is most odd considering that Jesus was a Healer, and in addition to his Miraculous Cures, often as not also gave Prescriptions and Medicines. He quite did whatever would work. For the Jehovah's Witnessess not to go to doctors therefore reeks of silliness.

      But, yes, good for them that they reject the Trinity. But then they do not go all the way over to becoming Jews, do they? Why get stuck half way? If they want to remain as Gentiles, then let them go all out and Worship Woden and wear hats with Horns on the side, and furry leather jerkens, and carry around short double edged swords, and sail about in boats that have dragon heads sticking out front. Jesus was Messiah. If they don't want to honor that, they they should drop the Bible. it is not THEIR BOOK.

      They should consider themselves outside of the Pall of Grace.

      Well, there IS a Dispensation for Gentiles. It came into Europe with the Manifestations of the Apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Goddess Mary. The Paulist Catholic Bishops did their best to Coopt the Movement, but actually one has to study the Marian Catholic Religious Orders to know more about what Marianism is all About.

      sorry, Howezter, but none of what I say is scarcely usable, and would only muddy the waters even more completely, huh?

    17. #17
      Member Leia's Avatar
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      Actually, it's not medial treatment as a whole they are opposed to, it's just any type of treatment that involves blood (e.g. blood transfusions).

      Originally posted by Leo
      But, yes, good for them that they reject the Trinity. But then they do not go all the way over to becoming Jews, do they? Why get stuck half way? If they want to remain as Gentiles, then let them go all out and Worship Woden and wear hats with Horns on the side, and furry leather jerkens, and carry around short double edged swords, and sail about in boats that have dragon heads sticking out front. Jesus was Messiah. If they don't want to honor that, they they should drop the Bible. it is not THEIR BOOK.
      LMAO... The image of having a handful of Viking-looking people walking around preaching to people randomly is very humerous.

    18. #18
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      Yeah, JW's are pretty militant about that. Which really pisses me off, because of stories like THIS

      Leukemia is pretty dangerous, but with treatment, it's actually pretty survivable, relative to some other cancers. If the girl had got treatment, she may very well have been alive today.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    19. #19
      Member Canon's Avatar
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      Why dont you just do what i do....STOP CARING!


      Respect your mom. . .what she did was by HER choice, no one can take away free will.

    20. #20
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Canon
      Why dont you just do what i do....STOP CARING!
      Respect your mom. . .what she did was by HER choice, no one can take away free will.
      Free will < > brain washing.
      Well I wish it were that easy Canon. Do to the fact she felt pressure from the congregation to reform us (or we will die) she ended up having anxiety issues. This had worsened over the years. She has passed away in 1995 from a brain hemorrhage.
      My older sister and brother were at that time in school. They were ostracized from their classmates. Every holiday they felt alienated from their peers. they both admit that it did screw up their social upbringing. They fortunately went on to high school to socially interact. Because my mother had a mental break down she had abandoned the religion.

      The witnesses now have targeted my grandmother. She turned 101 (yep - ONE HUNDRED & ONE) She was always religious but did not like the way of the witnesses. As she has grown senile they have inflicted their views upon her and she now has become one as well. They did not even tell her she was one hundred years old.

      My aunt's and uncle's own family of four, three of the four children are now dregs of society. But if you talk to them, it happens...their parenting had nothing to do with the result of their kid's actions. Their religious upbringing. We all saw it. It was right in front of their eyes. They pushed their own children away with their strict religious convictions.

      So I cannot "STOP CARING."
      Actually I think I care more every day.


    21. #21
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      Canon, that was a very close-minded and shallow remark.
      This is Howetzer's family we're talking about, here. You can't just stop caring entirely about family. And when a family member's religious beliefs are physically damaging to the point of psychological breakdown and physical death, IT NEEDS TO STOP.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    22. #22
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Tsen
      Canon, that was a very close-minded and shallow remark.
      This is Howetzer's family we're talking about, here. You can't just stop caring entirely about family. And when a family member's religious beliefs are physically damaging to the point of psychological breakdown and physical death, IT NEEDS TO STOP.
      Thank you Tsen

    23. #23
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
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      I found the only successful way I've ever handled anyone brainwashed into thinking they have to stress themselves out into making me believe something in order to svae me is to just respect their beliefs, listen to them, go on their little field trips, read what they tell you to, and then in return share your own thoughts on the amtter in open conversation and use that vehicle to enter deeper discussions about the curiosities of life, when they go on about 'well the way it is..." don't deny them, just offer other ideas and what other people think.

      For me, the only chance I had was to make sure they never... ever got defensive, and to that they had to think i was on their side, all the time, and I gave them love and support. Eventually they learned to respect my beliefs and realize there are other intelligent ideas out there.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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