Thread: Why hell?

I don't like the idea of hell. If there is a hell, I don't think it's something divine. I think hell is a very personal thing, something in the head of the punished. Something he's not subjected to by his loving god, but something he subjects himself to in the last moments of his life as he realizes that his life was wasted or unjust. Dante's Inferno touches on this theme I think, I remember him saying that the punished are free to make the ascent into heaven whenever they want, it's just their consciouses that keep them in hell. Let's see what Sartre has to say about hell:

Originally posted by JP Sartre
L'infer, c'est dans la regarde des autres

hell is in the eyes of one's peers. He thought that hell was social isolation, which brought a feeling of worthlessness and self-loathing. that, I think, is pretty close to hell.

within each one of us is a heaven and a hell.
a christ, and a satan.
love, and hate.
yes, and no.
faith (in others), and mistrust (separation from others).
within each one of us is Self, and ego.


all the burns in hell is ego.
all that is ego is hell.

yes, i hate having an ego. I want to be one with the universe and actually have time to enjoy it.

Originally posted by Inverting_world_lines
Was the idea of hell created to scare people into believing into God?

Yes.

good answer. Look at eastern philosophy; where's the hell there? It's because there was no hierarchy and necessary order in those religions, they were just spread by word of mouth and followed by individuals, not congregate masses.

The current concept of hell was indeed created to attract followers. Though there are those who deny such religions because of it, the universal fear of death and the unknown is enough to place a large amount of people into the religion. One cannot be certain that hell doesn’t exist so people often won’t take any chances. However, hell is in an equally large part a way to assure that people follow a set of moral and social guidelines.

Originally posted by Dangeruss
good answer. Look at eastern philosophy; where's the hell there? It's because there was no hierarchy and necessary order in those religions, they were just spread by word of mouth and followed by individuals, not congregate masses.

Buddhism and Taoism both have a concept of Hell. I wouldn't know enough to explain it, but I know they have it.

Ah, I guess that's what happens when you don't do your fact-checking, eh?
At least I'm not a syndicated newspaper making that mistake.

Often times religions which promote a belief in reincarnation have a very active notion that life here on earth is hellacious enough, and the goal is to become enlightened enough to not have to come back to hell again.

Hell is also a political ploy on the part of early church leaders to control the population. "You think your life as a slave/serf/peasant/peon. . . is hell, wait till you get to REAL hell after you die!" You know, you better be good and toe the party line or there'll be hell to pay, so to speak.

They also used heaven the same way, "Yeah, yeah, your life is hard and not a whole lot different than hell, but if you don't foment dissent and revolution, and give your tithes to the church, God'll love ya and you'll get to go to heaven."

my friend just wrote a research paper on daoism, and he said he didn't notice any mention of hell. so there!

Hell was created to scare people in to religion in a way in my view, a lot of the times when I read things about it ideals differ, I mean the catholic church says you'll go to hell and suffer by the devil, yet it says that the devil was thrown into hell for eternal suffering not to rule over anything, I think it is a lie which has grown to bigger proportions than expected

Originally posted by Dangeruss
my friend just wrote a research paper on daoism, and he said he didn't notice any mention of hell. so there!

And we all know research papers are able to cover everything about one topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di_Yu

Well regardless of how broad the paper was, if hell were as big a part of daoism as it is christianity then he would have found it after about 2 minutes of research. And he did a few hours of research so I don't think he just skipped over some essential concept.

Buddhism and Taoism both have a concept of Hell. I wouldn't know enough to explain it, but I know they have it.[/b]

if you read the tao te ching you'll notice there is no mention of hell. with the tao, the underlying theme is the yin-yang. nothing exists without its opposite. if hell exists, it exists at the same time and in the same place as heaven. i'm pretty sure hell is a western idea. while there are many different forms of buddhism nowadays, i think most will agree that the concept of hell doesn't factor in at all. the idea in buddhism is that you keep being reincarnated until you are able to die with totally neutral karma, and finally stop, transcending into buddha consciousness. if anything, regular existence is hell in the buddhist view.

also that link to the chinese hell does not come from buddhism or from taoism, but rather the idea is perceived differently based on their individual taoist/buddhist beliefs. it doesn't actually prove anything. also, there is no historical data for it, so it's especially meaningless. i think it's best to avoid commenting on things you have absolutely no idea about..

wow syzygy, thanks for sending this discussion backwards in time. You must have known I'd be too lazy to fact-check that.. excellent technique.

Originally posted by mongreloctopus
if you read the tao te ching you'll notice there is no mention of hell. *with the tao, the underlying theme is the yin-yang. *nothing exists without its opposite. *if hell exists, it exists at the same time and in the same place as heaven. *

While there is no mention of hell in "philosophical" Taoism, there definitely is mention in "religious" Taoism. "Philosophical" Taoism isn't a religion (nor is it a philosophy in the Western sense), so it really doesn't have a purpose in this conversation other than as comparison. But to be truthful, you can find the same metaphysical ideas in the West, so the whole East-West distinction is non-sense. There is definitely a huge gap in mass awareness of these ideas more so in the West, but they are not completely absent. In fact, the exoteric forms of religion depend on these ideas, even if they aren't aware of it.

And as for yin-yang, it is more about compliments than opposites, so the Mazdaist concept of good vs. evil (which was then transposed to Christianity) does not really apply. It also depends on how you are referring to space and time, because Heaven and Hell, being spiritual "places" and not physical places do not equate (although there is a correspondence - in the Swedenborgian sense) with our conception of time and space.

Originally posted by mongreloctopus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mongreloctopus)</div>

i'm pretty sure hell is a western idea. *while there are many different forms of buddhism nowadays, i think most will agree that the concept of hell doesn't factor in at all. *the idea in buddhism is that you keep being reincarnated until you are able to die with totally neutral karma, and finally stop, transcending into buddha consciousness. *if anything, regular existence is hell in the buddhist view.[/b]

The idea of hell, although it takes on different forms, is not particular to the West. Christianity probably picked it up from pagan religions and Mazdaism. Tibetan Buddhism makes mention of heaven and hell as places to be reincarnated. You spend the appropriate amount of time there depending on your karma, and then you are reincarnated into the next life. There is no special emphasis on heaven and hell, but they do exist as possible places to be reincarnated.

Originally posted by mongreloctopus@
also that link to the chinese hell does not come from buddhism or from taoism, but rather the idea is perceived differently based on their individual taoist/buddhist beliefs. *it doesn't actually prove anything. *also, there is no historical data for it, so it's especially meaningless. *

Thats the point! Hell does not belong to one religion. It is interpreted differently according to the religion in question. This is true for Christianity just as much as Buddhism. Before these, it came from pagan religions and shamanism. Now it might play a more prominent role in the form of Christianity most people know today, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some form of hell in a religion just for the simple fact that humans are in a mediant position to question both worlds above and below our current situation.

<!--QuoteBegin-mongreloctopus

i think it's best to avoid commenting on things you have absolutely no idea about..

Isn't that impossible? If you have no idea about something, how in the world could you comment on it? Unless it was unconscious, but then you aren't really "commenting" on it because you could have no opinion of it.

Originally posted by Dangeruss
wow syzygy, thanks for sending this discussion backwards in time. You must have known I'd be too lazy to fact-check that.. excellent technique.

Eh...what?

Originally posted by bradybaker

Yes.

word. After studying european history the church and its manipulation of the people, and utter corruption!! Hell had a lot of benefits for the church. The idea of negative reinforcement put the people under the churche's command. Not did people have to follow the church's rule, but they had to pay large sums of money to wash their sins away, or buy their relatives a place in pergatory.

So that is the christian version of hell at least, I'm interested in other religions concepts of hell.

There are two versions of dualism, the eastern ying yang, and the kind of zoroastrian originated good versus evil.

Zoroastrianism had a major idealogical impact on Islam, Judaism and Christianity, especially the idea that there is a good force versus and evil force (hell)

Hell could be an extremely negative experience a person brings upon himself because of messed emotions and mindset. This might take place in the after life or now I guess, but at anytime a person can free himself from this negative experience since it is brought upon by the self.

Was the idea of hell created to scare people into believing into God?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Yes. [/b]

[/b][/quote]

I disagree... If it can be agreed that the isrealites of the old testament had no reason to convert other people to their religion of YHWH-ism(that they did not evangelize), then this point could be disproven simply by stating old testament biblical passages refering to a place of eternal punishment or hell. Here are some examples:

Isaiah 66:22-24 is a major passage on this. It says that once God makes the new heavens and the new earth, believers "will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against [God]; their worm will not die, now will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." Clearly this must be eternal punishment, otherwise the fire would be quenched and the worms would die. How could the fire "not be quenched" if its purpose is only to annihilate the wicked? Further, maggots die when what they have finished their work (cf. Isa. 14:11), so if the wicked are annihilated (and thus the maggots work is "complete"), how could it be said that "the worm will not die"?

Daniel 12:2 is also very clear on final destinies: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." There are two separate destinies for believers and unbelievers--everlasting shame and everlasting blessing.

However, hell is in an equally large part a way to assure that people follow a set of moral and social guidelines. [/b]

Just in case someone attempts to use this against my reply it should be remembered that in the Isrealite community such a threat as Hell would be unneeded, they could simply be stoned or exiled for disobedience in just about any circumstance, surely this would be enough of a threat! By the way, the reason I chose YHWHism is because that is, of course, where the worlds major monotheistic religions descend from and all the major concepts of Hell.

Oh, and by the way, my personal beleif on hell is that the only way to God and therefore heaven is through Christ. However, I believe that the path to God is a wide one that includes all of those whom seek God and His will in this carnal life. I do not however think it likely that those who reject salvation of any sort or whom have chosen instead to worship themselves like the idol worshipers of the bible are going to make it, simply because they have chosen not to. Of course I don't know for sure and I certainly cannot judge... God Bless you all

Heaven is the carrot. Hell is the stick.

I imagine someone else has posted this, but whatever.

The idea of the underworld was created by humans simply to drive people to do good. Hell is the ultimate punishment and failure while heaven is the ultimate reward. Humans have an innate conscience, so we feel guilty when we do something immoral (such as murder another human). This created the idea of justice and such. For example, if a Greek guy says "Fuck Zeus", they believed a lightning bolt would strike him down because this was wrong (in their opinion).
Same with the idea with Fate (methinks) and Karma. You screw up, you get screwed. What goes around comes around. An eye for an eye. Hell is just the manifestation of inevitable human justice in some religions.

Hell is not a place of torment. Man does not have an immortal spirit that lives on after death. He is UNCONSCIOUS in death. Not sent to a place forever to be tortured.

The idea that hell is an ever-flaming place of torment results partially from a misunderstanding of Revelation 14:9-10: "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
This scripture does not say that these people are being tormented in hell. It states that the smoke of their torment ascends forever (verse 11). As smoke rises it blends with the surrounding air, becoming further and further diluted. David wrote in Psalm 37:20 that "the wicked shall perish [not be tortured forever in hell] ... Into smoke they shall vanish away."

Another thing to note is that the Hebrew word for hell is "sheol." But according to these scriptures it doesnt mention that it is a place of torment.

Ecclesiates 9:5,10 says: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all... All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.

Psalms 146:4: His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.

Ezek: 18:4: The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

Good people go to hell according to this scriptures which proves that it is not a place of torment for the wicked:

Job 14:13: O that in She´ol you would conceal me,That you would keep me secret until your anger turns back,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me&#33; (God himself said that Job was "a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside what is bad."-Job 1:8).

Also Acts 2:25-27 mentions that JEsus was in hell: ‘I had God constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken. On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; because you will not leave my soul in Ha´des(hell), neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption. (The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implifies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades for a time.)

Does anyone get out of the Bible hell?

Rev, 20:13,14: And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.)

After one dies, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Romans 6:7: "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin."

Jeremiah 7:31: "And they have built the high places of To´pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin´nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." (If it never came into God&#39;s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Deuteronomy 18:10, 2 Kings 16:3, 17:16-17, 21:6, 23:10 shows accounts of when the people in the land of Cannan would pass their sons and daughters under the fire, which was one reason why God told the Israelites to destroy them&#33;

The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt.

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the "neither world...is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendome&#39;s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E, in time came to feature both hot and cold hells.( The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etrucen roots.-La civilta etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389. So ancient Egyptian religious texts portrayed the "Other World" as featuring "pits of fire" for "the damned."- The religion of Babylonia and Assyria, By Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898,p.581; The Book of the Dead. pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 200.


Also one more thing, about Revelations, you have to remember that that book is filled with symbolism, the Devil is symbolized as a wild beast for example. What is interesting is that to people who believe in hell, it is the lake of fire right?

Revelation at 20: 10,14,15. These say: "Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."....."And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death -- the lake of fire"....."And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire."
But here it says that death and Hades(hell) will be hurled into the Lake of Fire So how can hell be hurled into hell? This proves the sheol/hades is not a place of torment, it actually simple means the grave, or unconscious death. This lake of fire symbolizes permanent destruction. So death (sheol) will be destroyed finally. To be destroyed means to cease to exist.

Ok so what about this part? Revelation 14:11 which says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

We see that it is the smoke of the "torment" that lasts forever, not the "torment" itself.
This is the smoke of the symbolic torment. (As I mentioned in the way begginning) According to the interlinear bible, it says that their situation is an unceasing ordeal, and death is indeed an unceasing ordeal. And upon looking at the interlinear bible, it is interesting to note that it does not use the word "torment" in the original Greek rendering of this verse . As for not resting for day or night, obviously these ones are not getting a break from death at this point.

Originally Posted by Inverting_world_lines

"why would a loving God let me go to hell?"

[/b]

There is a well known quote from the famous comedian Groucho Marx: "I would not want to belong to any Country Club that would take me as a member".

There is a Hell simply because Heaven would need to set some very high standards, both morally and aesthetically, or it would no longer qualify as being a heaven.

In this sense, Hell is not a deliberate and designed place, intended for punishment. hell is simply exile from heaven. The only thing that makes Hell an evil and bad place to be is the peole, the souls that occupy it. All the bad bosses, all the rapers, all the thieves, and slave drivers, and all the Republicans. All at constant war with each other, maneuvering for advantage, trying enslave one another, some grabbing all the wealth and imposing minimum wages on the others. God does none of that. It is the inmates that make Hell crazy.

Indeed, this is where Satan -- Lucifer enters in. As First and Most Powerful of Hell, but still a Soul just like any other Soul, Satan needs to be careful with every new &#39;member&#39; that joins the Club. In order for Satan to continue to Rule in Hell, he must jump with both feet on anyone who could ever challenge his power. So it is that we hear of souls being bound and chained in Hell, or restricted and tormented.

This is appropriate for Republicans, Capitalists, Economists and Conservatives who believe in the positive value of competition. When they are banned from heaven and must join the excluded ranks in Hell, then they can see the ultimate end of the Competion they had always advocated. And Lucifer wins and they all lose. Only one soul can be King of the Mountain, if that is the game they had wanted to play all of their lives.

But we don&#39;t have to feel sorry for anyone. Lucifer does nothing to any Soul that those same souls had not done to others... indeed, done to US.