Thread: Why try if you can't win?

good question, and one i've thought about a fair amount myself, with regard to the calvinists. (at least i think it was the calvinists; i'm not too great with matching names with theories.) they are/were (i don't know if there are still any around or not) the ones who believed in pre-determinism. god has already decided, before the world was ever created, who would be saved and who wouldn't. he already knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. it doesn't matter what you do in your life; your final outcome has already been decided. in this case, where is the impetus to do good? why not rape, murder, steal, and cheat? you know that, if god has decided that you're going to hell, you are going to hell no matter what, so why bother going to church, etc.? and if god has decided that you're going to heaven, then, again, it doesn't matter what you do, so why bother being good? instead, have fun! but apparently, the calvinists were still pretty puritan and still tried to act like christians.

i guess for me personally, if i knew 100% for sure that there was an ultimate reward and an ultimate punishment in the afterlife, and i knew 100% for sure which one i was getting, no matter what my actions were, then i would try to create the best life for myself while i am still on this earth. i would probably still follow many basic moral tenets, simply because they create a better world in general, and a better life for me in specific. if i rape, steal, murder, and cheat, sure, i might get some enjoyment out of it, and some material gain, but then i would have to worry about the law, if i was going to get caught, etc., and that would counterbalance any of the "good" that i might get out of it. on the other hand, if i am friendly, kind, and helpful, then other people will get a good impression of me and they will be more likely to be friendly, kind, and helpful to me when i need them to be.

on the other hand, if i knew 100% for sure that i would be going to hell, that might make me angry and vindictive towards god and life, and i might try to earn my place in hell. after all, if you're going down, why not go with a bang?

Originally posted by halfasked1
I was watching the movie Constantine the other day and it's about this guy who commited suicide and therefore could never be allowed into Heaven. He is revived by the EMTs after seeing how bad Hell is, so he goes around performing exorcisms(sp) to try to win God's good graces and be allowed into Heaven. This is what caused me to create this post. If you knew 100% that you would not go to Heaven under any circumstances ( or your respective Heaven-like place I guess) would you still try to live by your religion?

Yeah, wasn't that a GREAT Movie?

No, in regards to your question. One cannot allow one's Dharmic Behavior to be influenced merely by consideration of the results. One needs to live in the NOW. One must do what is right in the moment, for the moment.

This is not to say that one cannot plan for the future. Indeed, the Act of Planning is a very commendable action for any Moment, and people should do more of it.

In Sanskrit Philosophy, which gives us the words Kharma and Dharma, we learn that with Kharma each action will have it consequences. In this sense Kharma brings with it a certain justice... we all get what we deserve. But the Teaching of Dharma is that we each of us have embedded within us a certain Ideal of Behavior, or a Sum of Duties which we need to fulfill and perform. These actions, behaviors and duties are to be performed irrespective of Kharma -- that a Dharmic Action can never have an evil Kharmic consequence. So it is that a Warrier can commit a murder in the performance of his duties without any suggestion of evil being attached. And we see in those Mobster Movies when they say "It not personal, its only Business" before they kill somebody. Dharmic Actions carry no Kharma. If you do what you are supposed to be doing, you are never wrong.

But working for Results shows a divergence from Dharmic Living. One should not calculate one's behavior on the expected results, but should simply do one's duty, or do what one's Society and Culture tells one is the right thing to do.

And sometimes there is a great deal of overlap. In the case of Constantine, there was a certain amount of intellectual calculation that what he was doing would be Rewarded. But in the most part of his actions and behaviors he was acting Dharmically -- doing exactly what was required by Duty and Righteousness. In the last scenes of the movie when he again began to commit suicide, against all self interest, but because the the overriding demands of Dharma, THEN, he got his Reward, which was nothing more than the fulfillment of the Truth that No Action Done for the Sake of Dharma can ever have a bad result. Dharma transcends Kharma.

I

was watching the movie Constantine the other day and it's about this guy who commited suicide and therefore could never be allowed into Heaven. He is revived by the EMTs after seeing how bad Hell is, so he goes around performing exorcisms(sp) to try to win God's good graces and be allowed into Heaven. This is what caused me to create this post. If you knew 100% that you would not go to Heaven under any circumstances ( or your respective Heaven-like place I guess) would you still try to live by your religion? [/b]

I would attempt to worship God for the rest of my life no matter what and pray to go to heaven anyway, just like King David did when his child was going to die for his sins, as he put it(paraphrasing), "How could it hurt?"

Originally posted by SwordOfGod
"How could it hurt?"

it just seems like it would be kinda pointless if you absolutely knew it would have no effect.

Originally posted by SwordOfGod
I would attempt to worship God for the rest of my life no matter what and pray to go to heaven anyway, just like King David did when his child was going to die for his sins, as he put it(paraphrasing), "How could it hurt?"

A religion, in my eyes, should endorse good morales and teach good values because it creates a society in which people can leave together peacefully... not because they are one's ticket into heaven.

For that reason, Constantine performing exorcisms and the like, even after he knew he was going to hell, should have no effect at all on where he goes. Being frightened into doing good deeds is nowhere near the same as believing in said deeds, or seeing how being a good person is an excellent way to serve society and enrich the lives of other.

I say this, because it reminds me of a response that many Christians give me when I ask them why they are members of said religious group. When we get down to the very core of their beliefs, many simply say "Better safe than sorry." This implies that they do not truly believe in their religion, but think of it merely as a nifty tool that allows them to enter heaven, just-in-case their religion actually turns out to be the correct precursors for admittance into heaven.

This viewpoint has bothered me for quite some time.

Originally posted by halfasked1
I was watching the movie Constantine the other day and it's about this guy who commited suicide and therefore could never be allowed into Heaven. He is revived by the EMTs after seeing how bad Hell is, so he goes around performing exorcisms(sp) to try to win God's good graces and be allowed into Heaven. This is what caused me to create this post. If you knew 100% that you would not go to Heaven under any circumstances ( or your respective Heaven-like place I guess) would you still try to live by your religion?

I dont beleive there is such a scenario. Constantine was such a stupid movie and it doesnt even represent the comic books right. But as for the comic books, the idea that an innocent soul needs saving from hell by the hands of a human becuase God refuses to let her into heaven for some reason is even more stupid.

The devil himself can enter heaven if he so desired to

ps. heaven is not a place. it has no doors. no walls. its an existance. a state of being where you are with others in the same state of being. you cant be kicked out of it anymore than you can be kicked out of happiness

I do what I do because I think its the right thing, not because I think it will get me into heaven. Just because you know you wont go to heaven doesn't erase everything you believe. If it does then you never really believed it in the first place.

Originally posted by kage23
good question, and one i've thought about a fair amount myself, with regard to the calvinists. (at least i think it was the calvinists; i'm not too great with matching names with theories.) they are/were (i don't know if there are still any around or not) the ones who believed in pre-determinism. god has already decided, before the world was ever created, who would be saved and who wouldn't. he already knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. it doesn't matter what you do in your life; your final outcome has already been decided. in this case, where is the impetus to do good? why not rape, murder, steal, and cheat? you know that, if god has decided that you're going to hell, you are going to hell no matter what, so why bother going to church, etc.? and if god has decided that you're going to heaven, then, again, it doesn't matter what you do, so why bother being good? instead, have fun! but apparently, the calvinists were still pretty puritan and still tried to act like christians.

i guess for me personally, if i knew 100% for sure that there was an ultimate reward and an ultimate punishment in the afterlife, and i knew 100% for sure which one i was getting, no matter what my actions were, then i would try to create the best life for myself while i am still on this earth. i would probably still follow many basic moral tenets, simply because they create a better world in general, and a better life for me in specific. if i rape, steal, murder, and cheat, sure, i might get some enjoyment out of it, and some material gain, but then i would have to worry about the law, if i was going to get caught, etc., and that would counterbalance any of the "good" that i might get out of it. on the other hand, if i am friendly, kind, and helpful, then other people will get a good impression of me and they will be more likely to be friendly, kind, and helpful to me when i need them to be.


on the other hand, if i knew 100% for sure that i would be going to hell, that might make me angry and vindictive towards god and life, and i might try to earn my place in hell. after all, if you're going down, why not go with a bang?

I agree, in a way,you will enjoy your life the most if you create goodness, and are friendly, you will have more happiness the a person who rapes steals and cheats, becuase all that crappy karma will end up in suffering. Is there a rapist who's really happy?

Unfortunately I would find it almost impossible to live happily, if I had the looming 100% chance that I was going to hell.

He probably did the whole fight the good fight just so that he knows he did something good with his life and maybe to help him believe that he will get back in God's good graces.
I think in the film when he was talking to an angel that he asked if he would be forgiven by God (just as he meets the cop, i think?).