DAMNED TO HELL!

So I've been tossing this about in my mind. And I have formulated my view on Heaven and hell and how we gain entrance.

First off. I don't think that anyone gets damned to hell, so much as they miss their chance to gain entrance to heaven. I don't think god is sitting up in the clouds, waiting for us to screw up. I'm more in favour of him calling us, moreso screaming our names with passion hoping that we will someday hear him.

What i think will happen is that when its time for heaven god will give a call to us, to everyone, Christian and non Christian. And whoever hears his voice will come. There will be a time that we are allowed to enter heaven and invited into heaven, EVERYONE. not just the do gooders or the christians. However those who have not spent their life waiting on god, fine tuning their minds to his voice will not hear this call and will miss their chance. The only other option being hell.

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John 10:2-4 (New International Version)

2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.[/b]

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I Thessalonians 5:4,9-10

"For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."[/b]

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I think that sin and the like prevent us from hearing the voice of god, which is often mistaken for god damning us to hell because of sin.

Rather then an angry god who is forcing us into hell, i see god as a god inviting all to heaven. No one has to come. But like i recognize the voice of a good friend, we will gain entrance into heaven by recognizing the voice of god, because we have spent time listening to him on earth. Which is why we need to focus on him.

I don't see god damning people to hell. Think of this what sort of loving god would force people to spend an eternity with him in heaven if they didnt even want to spend time with him on earth.


Any thoughts?

Nice. You're right, He does not ever damn us to hell, we choose to go ourselves. We choose which place to go in our lifetime, and when we get there, if we've been good, then He asks us where we would like to go. Believe it or not, people will sometimes choose to go to hell for their own reasons. I don't think God allows us to go without us knowing any better, He fills us in on how Heaven will be and how hell will be. We go to whatever place we go and stay there. I've also been thinking of how eternity will be as time doesn't exist in the afterlife. Methinks that wherever we go will just be. By that I mean that we won't be looking at God for infinite hour long sessions, it just will be... no waiting, no anything.
Also, in the case of 'mortal sins', (sins that get us a one way ticket to hell if we don't talk to God about it otherwise), I think thats another choice that we make here on Earth. I could specify on how my religion works, but in short, we choose existence with God or no God, believers or not.

I think I just said the same thing you did. I agree.

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Originally posted by .jared.
So I've been tossing this about in my mind. And I have formulated my view on Heaven and hell and how we gain entrance. *

First off. I don't think that anyone gets damned to hell, so much as they miss their chance to gain entrance to heaven. I don't think god is sitting up in the clouds, waiting for us to screw up. I'm more in favour of him calling us, moreso screaming our names with passion hoping that we will someday hear him. *

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God sound pretty helpless with his infinite power. Perhaps he should use one of his infinite powers instead of his apparently very limited power of screaming. I know that I would do the best I could to stop my conscious creations from being tortured forever, and I am not even completely good. Is God bound by any laws of reality (See thread by that title.)?

Nobody would "choose" to be tortured forever. My lack of belief in God is not by choice, and I in all honesty don't think I will burn forever for it. Therefore, I have not chosen not to go to Heaven or much less to go to Hell. I believe what makes sense to me. Could you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5? If so, do it for a week and tell us what it was like.

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Originally posted by Universal Mind


God sound pretty helpless with his infinite power. *Perhaps he should use one of his infinite powers instead of his apparently very limited power of screaming. *I know that I would do the best I could to stop my conscious creations from being tortured forever, and I am not even completely good. *Is God bound by any laws of reality (See thread by that title.)?

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that was a metaphor. Take a father for example. Once his son has moved out. This father has now given his son the freedom to do what he wants. If the son wants to hire hookers all the time, and join a gang. The father can be upset...metaphorically care enough to have his whole existence screaming to his son while still refraining from forcing his son to enter into his guidelines. Caring is not a weakness.

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Nobody would "choose" to be tortured forever. My lack of belief in God is not by choice, and I in all honesty don't think I will burn forever for it. *Therefore, I have not chosen not to go to Heaven or much less to go to Hell. *I believe what makes sense to me. *Could you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5? *If so, do it for a week and tell us what it was like.[/b]

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Hell is just absence of god.


I can argue just what you are saying and twist it towards god. I believe what makes sense to me you believe what makes sense to you. This argument says nothing for either side, and proves nothing.

We don't define what is true. We all know what we believe. Im talking about a belief, not arguing its validity. Because i see no need to argue gods existence everytime i want to bring up a topic pertaining to god. This topic was stating. "I think god is like this" not " Is there a god?". Lets not turn it into another senseless argument and just stick to the topic at hand.

The metaphorical father is not in charge of the laws of reality, so he has to deal with them as they are.

I wish you would attempt to counter the second quote of mine, not just in terms of Hell, but in terms of suffering period. You said that people choose to go to Heaven or not, and I countered that claim. What is your counter to that?

I really am interested in understanding the Christian concept better. I used to be a Christian, but when I was 16 it stopped making sense to me because I started really questioning it. If my questioning leads me back to Christianity, then cool, but as things are now, Christianity just does not seem to add up.

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Originally posted by Universal Mind

Nobody would "choose" to be tortured forever. *My lack of belief in God is not by choice, and I in all honesty don't think I will burn forever for it. *Therefore, I have not chosen not to go to Heaven or much less to go to Hell. *I believe what makes sense to me. *Could you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5? *If so, do it for a week and tell us what it was like.

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You indirectly asked for a Christian viewpoint in a later post, I believe, though I lost that part of the quote in sparratic back-spacing.

So, I think this is what my Grandfather would put forth as a rebuttal to that statement.

"It isn't some conscious decision of "Hey, going to Hell would suck pretty hard, I guess I'll go to Heaven instead!" It depends totally upon your actions. Religious beliefs, social beliefs, or even a belief in God in general shouldn't effect where you end up in the afterlife. I really think that all God is worried about is how you live your life, a nice balance between intent and actual action. Will God penalize someone because they can't bring themselves to believe in an omnipresent and omnipotent being that looms behind your shoulder, and is actually controlling all of your actions, thereby making all of your decisions null and void? No, I myself don't even believe this. It's how you live your life that matters, how you influenced the lives of other people. So, if you're a good person (and I know good is a super relative term) you don't have much to worry about, regardless of your spiritual beliefs."

He's a Methodist minister, and my viewpoints are pretty similar to his. I personally am not a Christian, but believe in God as a creator of life. The Omni* personification of him?... not quite so sure. I would only add one clause to the statement that I believe my Grandfather would not. It is that all of this applies only if you believe in Hell at all. The concept of a God making a pit of eternal fiery chaos and damnation for things that he created seems pretty odd to me. Why not try to rehabilitate people? Or, if God *really* feels like inflicting pain upon the souls of people, why would it have to be permanent? Why not a temporary visit that allows you to atone for your sins?

Yup.

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Originally posted by Universal Mind


I wish you would attempt to counter the second quote of mine, not just in terms of Hell, but in terms of suffering period. *You said that people choose to go to Heaven or not, and I countered that claim. *What is your counter to that? *

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Im done exams now. When i answered that i was under a lot of pressure and rushed my answer :-P. I will attempt to answer it now.

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Nobody would "choose" to be tortured forever. My lack of belief in God is not by choice, and I in all honesty don't think I will burn forever for it. Therefore, I have not chosen not to go to Heaven or much less to go to Hell. I believe what makes sense to me. Could you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5? If so, do it for a week and tell us what it was like.
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First off. I really think that heaven is in the background to what should really be happening. Its not so much a matter of wanting to go to heaven or hell, as it is a matter of wanting to be intimate with god or not caring enough about god to want to get to know him.

Ill try to use an example.

There is a person that you know. Lets call him bob. Bob represents God. Now you can get to know bob or you can not make an effort. Bob has lots of money and this wonderful huge house. Bobs friends have access to his sweet house and all his toys and stuff. Bob also has a wonderful personality and is a really cool guy. So its not like his friends use him for his stuff. They genuinely enjoy hanging out with him and would even if he wasn't rich.

Now you have two options. You can either be friends with bob. Or you can not take an interest. If you don't take an interest, it doesn't mean you hate bob, you just didn't take an interest. hes a cool guy but...meh. who cares you have other friends. You can even say bob doesnt exist, or isnt rich. But that really doesn't change anything about bob or how rich he is. Its just your belief and you can't change bob by not believing he exists. Now bob is no idiot. He knows if your not genuinely interested in him and so you wouldn't be able to just walk into his house.

This is a lot like god. People who spend time with him get access to his stuff because they know him like a best friend. But its not even about his stuff, hes genuinely is awesome. Now you don't choose hell or heaven. Just like you cant choose to chill in bobs house without being his friend, its just not an option. Its not about heaven or hell its about relationship. You choose friendship or you just don't make an effort to get to know him.

So what im trying to say is that you are right. No one would choose hell. But its not about choosing hell. You can't choose heaven or hell. You choose god, or you choose absence of god. Just like you cant just walk into the house of some guy without knowing him.

I hope that helps.

*Don't think that I use anlogies because i think you are stupid or something. :-P I always use them, i prefer to explain things in that way*

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Originally posted by ccrinbama


"It isn't some conscious decision of "Hey, going to Hell would suck pretty hard, I guess I'll go to Heaven instead!" It depends totally upon your actions. Religious beliefs, social beliefs, or even a belief in God in general shouldn't effect where you end up in the afterlife. I really think that all God is worried about is how you live your life, a nice balance between intent and actual action. Will God penalize someone because they can't bring themselves to believe in an omnipresent and omnipotent being that looms behind your shoulder, and is actually controlling all of your actions, thereby making all of your decisions null and void? No, I myself don't even believe this. It's how you live your life that matters, how you influenced the lives of other people. So, if you're a good person (and I know good is a super relative term) you don't have much to worry about, regardless of your spiritual beliefs."

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If you think about that in another mindset then it doesn't make as much sense. Think about a perfect all powerful being. What could he possibly benefit from anything you do. Why would he care if you do "good" or not. The most you can do on earth by good actions is make other creations of his happy. And if that was the point of life then wouldnt he just instantly make everyone happy? Even if he does care about doing good. Then the most anyone could do is average out.

God has nothing to gain from us. Nothing we do good could possibly help such a wonderful being. Which to me shows that he genuinely loves us whether we do good actions or not.Logically a perfect being would have to serve us if he commanded us souly to do "good". Because then the only thing his commands of doing good would accomplish would be to cause happiness for us. And if thats really what he wanted we would all be in heaven already.

I view it as a mother and a baby. We as humans are the baby. There is nothing a baby can do to make her mother happy except love the mother. A baby cannot buy something for the mother for her birthday, or take out the trash. From a very crude viewpoint a baby is a burden who only is to be served. The only reason any mother would even care about a baby is love. If there is a God then he is so awesome that compared to him we can do as much as a mother can do for his mother.

To me its stricktly relationship because nothing else really makes sense.

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He's a Methodist minister, and my viewpoints are pretty similar to his. I personally am not a Christian, but believe in God as a creator of life. The Omni* personification of him?... not quite so sure. I would only add one clause to the statement that I believe my Grandfather would not. It is that all of this applies only if you believe in Hell at all. The concept of a God making a pit of eternal fiery chaos and damnation for things that he created seems pretty odd to me. Why not try to rehabilitate people? Or, if God *really* feels like inflicting pain upon the souls of people, why would it have to be permanent? Why not a temporary visit that allows you to atone for your sins?
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If there is a god, then he is so great that existence itself is sustained by him. Everything that exists does so because he allows it and because he sustains it. Now take this god away. What are you left with. Hell. You can't die because god controls when you die. you can't live because god sustains you and he isn't there. It would be absolute insanity. A lapse between existence and non existence. Constant torture. I don't think god has to make hell. he just has to not sustain people that don't come to heaven.

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Originally posted by .jared.


You can't die because god controls when you die. you can't live because god sustains you and he isn't there. It would be absolute insanity. A lapse between existence and non existence. Constant torture. I don't think god has to make hell. he just has to not sustain people that don't come to heaven.

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I just have a need to say....the bible does not support the belief that hell is a place of torture. The bible teaches it as something different, if u really examine the scriptures. The bible teaches that we do NOT have an eternal soul. I can put scriptures up later if you want me to prove my point.

And about God controlling you in that aspect, that is true, but that does not mean you can't die. When 'you go back to the ground in dust' it is true, your in God's hands because he is the only one who can bring you back to life. You are safe in his memory. But you are not conscious....yet.

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Originally posted by Lonewolf



I just have a need to say....the bible does not support the belief that hell is *a place of torture. The bible teaches it as something different, if u really examine the scriptures. The bible teaches that we do NOT have an eternal soul. I can put scriptures up later if you want me to prove my point. *

And about God controlling you in that aspect, that is true, but that does not mean you can't die. When 'you go back to the ground in dust' it is true, your in God's hands because he is the only one who can bring you back to life. You are safe in his memory. But you are not conscious....yet.

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Honestly. I care very little about hell, and am not worried about it. So i have really not looked into it that much. You are probably right.

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Originally posted by .jared.+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(.jared.)</div>

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I view it as a mother and a baby. We as humans are the baby. There is nothing a baby can do to make her mother happy except love the mother. A baby cannot buy something for the mother for her birthday, or take out the trash. From a very crude viewpoint a baby is a burden who only is to be served. The only reason any mother would even care about a baby is love. If there is a God then he is so awesome that compared to him we can do as much as a mother can do for his mother.[/b]

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Why would us loving God make him happy? If he truly is as all power as you say he is, he shouldn't give a rip what we think about him. What... is he going to take it as a personal stab if something he created doesn't love him? Omni* God knows all things... so he would know that you weren't going to love him long before he even created you.

In that light, if all he cares about is you loving him, and he knew that a certain person wouldn't, then why would he even create them?

The way most people view God, nothing at all we can do matters.

I try to stay a good person because I think it's the right thing to do. Not because I'm trying to stay out of Hell, or not because I'm trying to earn divine points and get my way into Heaven. It also isn't because I'm worried about God abandoning me if I don't give him enough attention, or if my cosmic ears aren't attuned enough to hear his voice call out to me at the End of all things because I haven't found the codec for God Frequency. It also isn't the product of any religion. It's just something that's built into me; I dislike causing harm to other people, and I enjoy making other people feel better. It's for that reason that I believe that is what God wants from us; it's something that's just a natural part of who I am, and something that feels right.

That's why I believe that. Now, why does it matter to God whether or not we are good people? I have no idea, and I don't think that any living being can claim to know what they think makes God happy. This is all just my opinion, the most logical end that I come to on the twisting tracks of my Alpha Train of Thought. Take it as you will.

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Originally posted by .jared.@


If there is a god, then he is so great that existence itself is sustained by him. Everything that exists does so because he allows it and because he sustains it. Now take this god away. What are you left with. Hell. You can't die because god controls when you die. you can't live because god sustains you and he isn't there. It would be absolute insanity. A lapse between existence and non existence. Constant torture. I don't think god has to make hell. he just has to not sustain people that don't come to heaven.

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I was actually countering what Universal Mind said with my description of Hell as a pit of burning damnation...

<!--QuoteBegin-Universal Mind
My lack of belief in God is not by choice, and I in all honesty don't think I will burn forever for it. Therefore, I have not chosen not to go to Heaven or much less to go to Hell.

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II have no idea if Heaven or Hell, or anything to a lesser/greater degree of the two exist at all, much less do I have any idea of what Hell would be like... I was using the image of Hell he provided (or at least what I assumed he had in mind by his word choice) to make my point.

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Originally posted by .jared.
. *

There is a person that you know. Lets call him bob. Bob represents God. Now you can get to know bob or you can not make an effort. Bob has lots of money and this wonderful huge house. Bobs friends have access to his sweet house and all his toys and stuff. Bob also has a wonderful personality and is a really cool guy. So its not like his friends use him for his stuff. They genuinely enjoy hanging out with him and would even if he wasn't rich.

Now you have two options. You can either be friends with bob. Or you can not take an interest. If you don't take an interest, it doesn't mean you hate bob, you just didn't take an interest. hes a cool guy but...meh. who cares you have other friends. You can even say bob doesnt exist, or isnt rich. But that really doesn't change anything about bob or how rich he is. Its just your belief and you can't change bob by not believing he exists. Now bob is no idiot. He knows if your not genuinely interested in him and so you wouldn't be able to just walk into his house. *

This is a lot like god. People who spend time with him get access to his stuff because they know him like a best friend. But its not even about his stuff, hes genuinely is awesome. Now you don't choose hell or heaven. Just like you cant choose to chill in bobs house without being his friend, its just not an option. Its not about heaven or hell its about relationship. You choose friendship or you just don't make an effort to get to know him. *

So what im trying to say is that you are right. No one would choose hell. But its not about choosing hell. You can't choose heaven or hell. You choose god, or you choose absence of god. Just like you cant just walk into the house of some guy without knowing him. *

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Thanks for explaining your view. The issue I have with Christianity and religion in general is not a lack of interest in God. I am obsessed with the concept of God, and if I thought he were real, I would LOVE to know him. The problem is that the idea that he exists does not make sense to me. I don't lack interest. I just don't think he is there. So to reference your Bob metaphor, I don't even think Bob exists.

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I try to stay a good person because I think it's the right thing to do. Not because I'm trying to stay out of Hell, or not because I'm trying to earn divine points and get my way into Heaven. It also isn't because I'm worried about God abandoning me if I don't give him enough attention, or if my cosmic ears aren't attuned enough to hear his voice call out to me at the End of all things because I haven't found the codec for God Frequency. It also isn't the product of any religion. It's just something that's built into me; I dislike causing harm to other people, and I enjoy making other people feel better. It's for that reason that I believe that is what God wants from us; it's something that's just a natural part of who I am, and something that feels right.

That's why I believe that. Now, why does it matter to God whether or not we are good people? I have no idea, and I don't think that any living being can claim to know what they think makes God happy. This is all just my opinion, the most logical end that I come to on the twisting tracks of my Alpha Train of Thought. Take it as you will.
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I'm not saying you shouldn't believe that. I try to be a good person as well. I think god wants it. But i don't think its required to enter heaven, and i don't think it qualifies anyone to enter heaven. And thats what we were talking about, so thats what i addressed in my response.

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Originally posted by Universal Mind


Thanks for explaining your view. The issue I have with Christianity and religion in general is not a lack of interest in God. I am obsessed with the concept of God, and if I thought he were real, I would LOVE to know him. The problem is that the idea that he exists does not make sense to me. I don't lack interest. I just don't think he is there. So to reference your Bob metaphor, I don't even think Bob exists.

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I know a lot of people think this. And its something i've thought about a lot, so i sort of understand where you are coming from. Recently i went through a few things that caused me to question if there was a god.

However, not to sound judgemental or anything of that sort, im simply continuing on the conversation and offering my advice. I can say one thing. If you are going to decide to believe there is no God, then be very sure that he doesn't exist, because if he does, then your believing one way or another won't change that.

[quote] I would LOVE to know him[/quote

Do you pray? You can't get to know the truth about someone if you don't talk to them.

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Originally posted by .jared.
I'm not saying you shouldn't believe that. I try to be a good person as well. I think god wants it. But i don't think its required to enter heaven, and i don't think it qualifies anyone to enter heaven. And thats what we were talking about, so thats what i addressed in my response.

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Actually, I was saying that's what I think is required to enter heaven. The long listing of places that this feeling didn't come from was to reiterate the fact that it's something hard-coded into me, rather than something created by man... such as religion, or views of what God could be.

And you probably allready realized this, but I couldn't tell by the wording of your statement. =P

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Originally posted by ccrinbama


Actually, I was saying that's what I think is required to enter heaven. The long listing of places that this feeling didn't come from was to reiterate the fact that it's something hard-coded into me, rather than something created by man... such as religion, or views of what God could be.

And you probably allready realized this, but I couldn't tell by the wording of your statement. =P

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Alright. I missed that actually. But now i understand.

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Originally posted by .jared.


I know a lot of people think this. And its something i've thought about a lot, so i sort of understand where you are coming from. Recently i went through a few things that caused me to question if there was a god.

However, not to sound judgemental or anything of that sort, im simply continuing on the conversation and offering my advice. I can say one thing. If you are going to decide to believe there is no God, then be very sure that he doesn't exist, because if he does, then your believing one way or another won't change that.

Do you pray? You can't get to know the truth about someone if you don't talk to them.

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I can't be sure that God does not exist and then decide not to believe in him. The idea that he exists just does not make sense. It has nothing to do with decision. I can't say I know with 100% certainty that God does not exist, just like I can't do that with the Tooth Fairy. It is just a concept I can't make sense of, particularly the Judeo-Christian concept of God. If he is real and is infinitely intelligent, he understands.

As for prayer... I was a Christian until I was 16. I used to pray every night in bed before I went to sleep. I would say the Lord's Prayer in my head, sing "Come Into My Heart (Lord Jesus)" in my head, and often say the "Now I lay me down to sleep..." prayer. I was way into that stuff. I got nice feelings from it, but I don't think those feelings prove the existence of God. They only prove the existence of feelings.

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Originally posted by Universal Mind
It is just a concept I can't make sense of, particularly the Judeo-Christian concept of God. *If he is real and is infinitely intelligent, he understands.

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Well put, and it's a point that I use when defending Atheists in spiritual debates with my friends. If God is truly all-knowing, then he will see how a person would have problems coming to grips with the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being that ultimately controls everything about your life.

Well played.

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Originally posted by ccrinbama


Well put, and it's a point that I use when defending Atheists in spiritual debates with my friends. If God is truly all-knowing, then he will see how a person would have problems coming to grips with the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being that ultimately controls everything about your life.

Well played.

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He has and he does. He has given us the bible. He has revealed himself to so many people.

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Originally posted by Lonewolf



I just have a need to say....the bible does not support the belief that hell is a place of torture. The bible teaches it as something different, if u really examine the scriptures. The bible teaches that we do NOT have an eternal soul. I can put scriptures up later if you want me to prove my point.

And about God controlling you in that aspect, that is true, but that does not mean you can't die. When 'you go back to the ground in dust' it is true, your in God's hands because he is the only one who can bring you back to life. You are safe in his memory. But you are not conscious....yet.

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Be weary of holding onto what HUMANS say in the bible. If its not Jesus who says the dead sleep, then dont expect all Christians to hold it as truth. As far as I am concerned, Christ conquered death or at least showed that there is no death to fear. It was HUMANS who went against what Christ had done and said "the dead sleep".

The bible DOESNT say much about death. And I am weary of people who only look to the bible to answer this question. Read some NDEs or ADCs that Christians have experienced. They will tell you they are conscious.

I am against the phraise R.I.P. . Leave rest for the lazy. The holy host in heaven work day in night. L.I.P.