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    1. #1
      Member Jrels's Avatar
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      Where is the evidence?

      The bible... Particularly the New Testiment can only be verified as being written hundreds of years after the time period of Christ. I must say there is more evidence for for falsehood than truth. I have ceased to see a need to try to convince myself that any of it is true. It is a story, a story being told to us by people who have proven themselves to be untrustworthy.

      There is no evidence for spirituality, none that cannot be attributed to the imagination. Fatima, Flying Monks, it all sounds good enough but is unverifiable. Religion, as a matter of fact, seems to be the cause for a lot of what's wrong with the world today (Jihad). The Catholic Chirch, by default, appears to be sinister.

      Doing away with these institutions would, by no means, lead to debauchery. Intelligence alone shows us that transgressions leed us to us feel guilty and are avoided with the consideration of others. I believe that these ideas must be entertained. You are cutting yourself short if you accept things solely on faith. If you are honest with yourself, I have found that you can look at the curch and see that it is holding us back.

      The only real purpose that I have found in Christianity (it is the religion I am most familiar with) is that it can be used as a tool to teach children to behave nicely, and perhaps mature into considerate individuals. With a good school teacher, this is superfluous.

      In closing, all I'm saying is that I know I am just one person, and that I might live a somewhat isolated life, but I should not have to travel anytwhere to be convinced that religion or spirituality is real. There are many people out there already looking for the evidence and have yet to provide tangible proof (I'm sure there's a perfect parable for that one). I'm going to be honest with myself, I will not live each day trying to convince myself that a story is true, and I dare say that I will be good person.

    2. #2
      Member .jared.'s Avatar
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      The evidence is proven over and over to me on a daily basis. Everything lines up. God comes through and i see him/hear from him. I feel him and play in the spirit of god. I have been captured by him on various occasions and have experienced things just like what the disciples have felt.

      I also am never depressed or upset. I feel no guilt, i am constantly happy and this is something i accredit to god.


      Also im not to sure of what you have said here. Can you back up this claim that the new testament was written hundreds of years after Christ?

    3. #3
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Not centuries. But certainly decades. The best scholarly estimates date the earliest records of the NT to around 70AD. Some 40 years after Christ was supposedly crucified.

      And even then, these writings come from Christian sources (ie. the people going around trying to convert everyone).
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    4. #4
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      interesting

      It is certainly true that the earliest manuscripts range from 30 to fifty years after Christ, this however should not be suprising considering that the disciples of the time were expecting Christ to come back in their own lifetime. When they realized he probably wasn't coming yet, they decided to write the gospels down. It should be noted that all of the gospel writers (three of whom were not apostles) were tortured on multiple occasions and three of them were martyred. It is my opinion that if they did not truly believe in what they wrote they probably would not have died for it.

    5. #5
      Member Jrels's Avatar
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      Originally posted by .jared.
      The evidence is proven over and over to me on a daily basis. Everything lines up. God comes through and i see him/hear from him. I feel him and play in the spirit of god. I have been captured by him on various occasions and have experienced things just like what the disciples have felt.
      I respect your convictions, but this is what we refer to as being a subjective experience. Your way of interpreting these "profound" emotions which we all experience.

      Originally posted by .jared.+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(.jared.)</div>
      I also am never depressed or upset. I feel no guilt, i am constantly happy and this is something i accredit to god. [/b]
      I just find that hard to swallow.


      <!--QuoteBegin-.jared.

      Also im not to sure of what you have said here. Can you back up this claim that the new testament was written hundreds of years after Christ?
      Well, the earliest writings that we have unearthed have been carbon-dated as being written after the time period lifetime of Jesus, in corroboration with the roman empire. They are re-tellings which were aparently later written. I guess it is unfair to say exactly when the originals were written.

      I just have a lot of questions, thats all. Questions which ought not be taken for granted.

      EDIT: I don't mean to sound like an ass... I'm just trying to be as realistic as possible. I mean, what else is there.

    6. #6
      Member .jared.'s Avatar
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      I respect your convictions, but this is what we refer to as being a subjective experience. Your way of interpreting these "profound" emotions which we all experience. *
      [/b]
      This is personal evidence and i would not expect it to convince anyone else.

      I just find that hard to swallow. *
      [/b]
      Its true. But yeah. if you don't believe it really don't care. Its not used to change you. I was responding to this question in saying where i found evidence. Not trying to give others evidence.

    7. #7
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      Jared, two things.

      If you didn't intend to convince anybody, why post it on a public forum?

      Second. God isn't a requisite to happiness. Just because you're happy and you believe in a supreme diety doesn't mean the two are mutually exclusive. I'm an atheist, and I'm just as happy as you are, perhaps even more happy. But in both cases, being one does not entail being the other. A person's happiness is independant of their religious views.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    8. #8
      Member .jared.'s Avatar
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      Originally posted by Tsen
      Jared, two things.

      If you didn't intend to convince anybody, why post it on a public forum?

      Second. *God isn't a requisite to happiness. *Just because you're happy and you believe in a supreme diety doesn't mean the two are mutually exclusive. *I'm an atheist, and I'm just as happy as you are, perhaps even more happy. *But in both cases, being one does not entail being the other. *A person's happiness is independant of their religious views.
      I posted that because that is part of what proves god to me. Not all forums are about arguing and proving things. Some are simply asking for an opinion, or a description of ones personal experience.

      I am content. But like i said just now. That is only part of what proves the existence of god to me. In fact it is a very small slice of where i base my beliefs. I have many things that throughout my life have over and over again shown god to me. Through reason. Through logic. However i have had this argument so many times in so many different places that i really am not in the mood to get into it again.

      And despite what most Christians try to say..."being a Christian isn't about being happy". I think that being a Christian does bring joy.

      Galations 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

      If i am in the spirit i will be surrounded by love, joy, peace.... and so on.

    9. #9
      Party Pooper Tsen's Avatar
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      And despite what most Christians try to say..."being a Christian isn't about being happy". I think that being a Christian does bring joy.

      Galations 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." [/b]
      That's nice and all, but I've BEEN Christian. DEVOTED Christian. Now I'm an atheist. I'm no happier, and no sadder. It's mutually independant: Being religious DOES NOT make a person happy. Hell, look at Nesgirl on the forum. Her religion has her determined not to die because she's absolutely terrified that she'll go to hell. A bit of an extreme example, but by no means a phenomenon exclusive to one person. MANY, MANY people feel afraid of God, terrified of a possible damnation if they do the slightest thing wrong. Terrified to the point that they can no longer be happy. There's another side, too, of course. Religious people who are only happy becuase they know that they're "saved". But there's atheists on both sides, too: Atheists who are depressed or afraid and atheists who are happy and determined.
      It has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion.
      [23:17:23] <+Kaniaz> "You think I want to look like Leo Volont? Don't you dare"

    10. #10
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      religion is nothing, religion is meaningless. religion is someone, a HUMAN telling you what to believe in and what to feel and what to think.

      spirituality is just the oppisite. spirituality is true. spirituality is looking inside yourself to find your own truth - and then finding out that others have found the same truth. like jared, I believe in God, and I have my own evidence personal evidence. And I am happy to believe in such.

      if you want to find God and find out whether or not God is true or real, search inside yourself. Not a church, not a book.

      Tsen, I understand what you are saying! A lot of Christians don't love God and only fear God and only spread the fear of God, which spreads ignorance - such as hatred for homosexuals or an unhealthy fear of going to hell. Been there, done with that. I won't go through my story - but I knew I had to get out the scene with a Catholic friend told me I would go to hell if I didn't go to church every sunday.....

      I'm no longer a Christian to save my soul - my soul was already saved. It was never in danger of hell, that was an old lie. A powerful lie, but one that needs to be stop. God is not sending anyone to hell.

      You see Tsen, I don't think you understand what Jared is talking about. You think being Christian is about being apart of a religion. No. A true Christian IS happy. Becuase a true Christian believes and follows an all loving, an all present, an all knowing God. That does not mean he is apart of a religion or even an organized Church. This is his spirituality that he found on his own, with his own soul searching.

      You try to say that non Christians can feel those things too as an argument against the validity of this faith. But thats not an argument against THIS faith. Its only an argument if a Christian doesn't understand what all present, all knowing, all loving God means...........Because an all loving God would give that to those who search for it. In THIS faith, if an Atheist searches for happiness and peace in his life - God will bring it.

      BUT, of course you'll find lots of Christians would disagree with that above statement.......................... I however DO believe in an all present, an all knowing, an all loving Creator - which makes the very purpose of being Christian pointless - other than to develop your own personal relationship with God. Atheists aren't the only ones who walk away from Church. I never want to be apart of the Catholic Church again!

    11. #11
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      During the last 3 or 4 Centuries there has been a great deal of Biblical Scholarship. There are a great many more sourses, both primary and secondary, then some people had at first believed. The problem is not with First Century Sources... we have plenty from the First Century. The Problem for Church Historians is how did the Church develop from the First Century to the Third. My guess is that the Bishops were no better then Gangs, and Mobs and went about slaughtering each other, and when it was all over, the most ruthless and bloodthirsty of Doctrines claimed overall doctrinal victory. So it is that the New Testament has a thin section of Gospels but a huge sheif of letters from Paul, the guy that said that by murdering Jesus it was okay to commit any and every sin. Hmmm... I wonder what it was that gave his Doctrine an advantage in ruthless gang warfare?


      But in the case of Jrel, who obviously hasn't spent the first 5 minutes studying the field, it is ridiculous to even answer him with a word.

    12. #12
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      Originally posted by Leo Volont
      During the last 3 or 4 Centuries there has been a great deal of Biblical Scholarship. There are a great many more sourses, both primary and secondary, then some people had at first believed. The problem is not with First Century Sources... we have plenty from the First Century.
      You're going to have to back this up with some sort of evidence. What do you think constitues a primary source, and what are these "great many more" primary sources that you think have been discovered. Also, identify some of these plentiful first century sources.

      You can't just make statements like this, which go against virtually all of mainstream biblical scholarship, and expect us to just believe you without evidence. For example, as far as I was aware there are no primary sources from the first century besides paul. Since you've discarded his letters, it should be interesting to see what you think fills the gap.

    13. #13
      Member Jrels's Avatar
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      Moses was allegedly (SP3!?) handed the stone tablets written by the hand of God Himself. Then he smashed them in an act of rage, and consequently made his own. This reminds me of the founding of mormonism. He swears that he had the evidence in his hands, but cannot prove it. It's a bunch of bullshit as far as I am concerned.

      Praise God, Praise God.

      Do these people even know what they're saying!? I reserve reverence for the creator, but I laugh at religion. Catholicism equals idolity. Show me a verse where we are told to pray to Mary, the Mother of God, and I'll show you a mis construed (Sp9) verse. I belive in the one true God, but I do not trust man's writings, especially when there has been political gain to be had.

      As is usual I have been drinking.

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