Thread: Religion And Lucidity

Originally Posted by Unicorn

As far as i'm concerned, monotheist religions do not talk about lucid dreams in any form. Lucidity is experienced by many oneironauts as a life-changing event. So my question is, did it change your perception about your religion? Has your faith never been stronger or do you feel betrayed?[/b]

I have had a difficult time finding religion. It was not for a lack of trying.
But I have seen throughout the years these events that always happened in and out of sleep that people have called religious signs.
Once I was introduced to lucid dreaming I had answers to these so called phenomenons.
I began a quest for awareness. Through my entire life. with regards to lucid dreaming and a fulfillment for life in general. This led me to question the validity in all things.
If I could take the blue pill and believe, I would.
This path has led me to discredit most religion has indoctrination and a human need as well as a fallacy.

I certainly do not feel betrayed. It was my own quest. I feel somewaht liberated from the confines of organized religion.

If anything, I'm more in awe of this body and brain that has been "loaned" to me than ever before.

As far as my faith goes, returning to lucid dreaming (as I used to LD as a child) has had no impact at all.

Don't you think there is a basic contradiction between:

Originally Posted by Howetzer

If I could take the blue pill and believe, I would.[/b]

and

Originally Posted by Howetzer

I feel somewaht liberated from the confines of organized religion.
[/b]

Originally Posted by Unicorn

Don't you think there is a basic contradiction between:
and
[/b]

Perhaps, but that is totally the matrix-dillema right there: what I think is that Howetzer knows religion is a fraud, to a certain extend, so he can never really believe in it anymore. However he does think ignorance is bliss. Like the dude in the matrix that shot the people with the super-lightnigh-gun :0

Well really Howetzer, not like believers are more happy, at least that is how they appear to me. Be happy given the real choice between red and blue, for indoctrinated christians never get a glimpse of the red one.

EDITTED to make me look less like a total know-it-all asshat.

(that I still am )

Originally Posted by Neruo

Perhaps, but that is totally the matrix-dillema right there: Howetzer knows religion is a fraud, so he can never really believe in it anymore. However he would like to put away all his worries and just go to church like a sheep, or some other way that would give him such a life.

Well really Howetzer, not like Christians are more happy. Be happy given the real choice between red and blue, for indoctrinated christians never get a glimpse of the red one.
[/b]

Thank you Neruo.
You said that much better than I could have. Perfectly explained. Thank you.

As far as your second statement, I am comfortable in my life and my decisions. However, they say ignorance is bliss. Hence given the reason I had said I would take the blue pill. So if you never see the red one, you do not care. It is all BLUE.
It is not contradictory because I live in a world without the blue pill. Hypothetically I would.. if given the choice.

I would like to say just because I feel that most of religion is a fraud, that does not mean I do not feel there can be a God. (another contradictory statement? )

Originally Posted by Howetzer

Thank you Neruo.
You said that much better than I could have. Perfectly explained. Thank you.[/b]

Yeah I did kind of noticed that I sounded smart assed again. I meant that that was what I thought, aight?

As far as your second statement, I am comfortable in my life and my decisions. However, they say ignorance is bliss. Hence given the reason I had said I would take the blue pill. So if you never see the red one, you do not care. It is all

BLUE.
It is not contradictory because I live in a world without the blue pill. Hypothetically I would.. if given the choice.

I would like to say just because I feel that most of religion is a fraud, that does not mean I do not feel there can be a God. (another contradictory statement? )
[/b]

Yeah point is: ignorance is bliss. Ok, agreed. But I think you are overating is. Knowledge also is bliss.

Is it just me, or does Neruo have a problim with God and his followers?

anyhow, on the actual topic: It hasn't changed my perception in the slightest.

edited quote
(is it flame? maybe a little...)

Is it just me, or does keeper have a problem with not having a God and his not- followers?

anyhow, on the actual topic: It hasn't changed my perception in the slightest.[/b]

(i quoted the second part just the same because it's the same for me)

Originally Posted by Keeper

Is it just me, or does Neruo have a problim with God and his followers?
[/b]

WHAT? I hadn't noticed!

Originally Posted by Unicorn

As far as i'm concerned, monotheist religions do not talk about lucid dreams in any form. Lucidity is experienced by many oneironauts as a life-changing event. So my question is, did it change your perception about your religion? Has your faith never been stronger or do you feel betrayed?
[/b]

I am a Christain and having a lucid dream has not changed my perception of what I know through my faith. My faith is a strong as ever. I know that God made me exactly the way he planned. And God has a plan for me. Any gifts I have are because God blessed me with them. That includes the gift of having Lucid Dreams. I have even called on Jesus to get myself out of a few nightmares.

BeaconDreamer

Originally Posted by Mark75

WHAT? I hadn't noticed!
[/b]

Yeah, I tried to somewhat mellow down my hate not to upset to much people, but that didn't work

But really, how weird, I have a problem with the number 1 thing that people have killed for, religion. And Oh-my, I hate something that indoctrinates children and takes away a part of their free will and openly-thinking.

Lucidity has changed little about my views on religion. I just now am even more aware of the fact that what we see is not what is real, even if we are awake. Everything we see is an interpretation, and you can see what you want to see, both in dreams as in real life.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Yeah point is: ignorance is bliss. Ok, agreed. But I think you are overating is. Knowledge also is bliss.[/b]

I think you miss my point. Yes knowledge in our day to day life is essential. And in my life at this point I feel blinded to follow any religion. So people that truly believe are content. While I may be content in my day to day "knowledge" at the end of the day, should it be my last day, I can not give you an absolute answer to what will happen to me. Where as someone of true faith (though possibly wrong) knows in THEIR mind that they are saved.
Perhaps you so strongly believe that you will turn to decay. That too is a belief. You may also be wrong. I claim, I don't know! That is not a peaceful place to be.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

I think you miss my point. Yes knowledge in our day to day life is essential. And in my life at this point I feel blinded to follow any religion. [/b]

You are

Blinded [/b]

to follow any religion? I find that kind of ironic, as it almost always is religion causing blindness to people...

A more suited metaphor, in my eyes, would be that you are no longer able to Not see the woman's face or the bunny in a picture. You know those pictures, they look pretty normal, a picture of a tree with other green stuff and all, but then, if you look good, all of a sudden you see the tree and other green shit is shaped like a woman's face / bunnyrabbit. Once you see it, it is hard not to see it.

So people that truly believe are content. While I may be content in my day to day "knowledge" at the end of the day, should it be my last day, I can not give you an absolute answer to what will happen to me. Where as someone of true faith (though possibly wrong) knows in THEIR mind that they are saved.
Perhaps you so strongly believe that you will turn to decay. That too is a belief. You may also be wrong. I claim, I don't know! That is not a peaceful place to be.
[/b]

I would have peace with my life 'just ending', as long as I have lead a good life.

Anyhows, Howetzer, you really are burdened with enough reason to see organized religion is nonsense, but at the same time you seem to kind of wish it was all true. Point being: Kind of nihilism on the pessimistic side, I think, to be honest.

My message to you: Cheer up Not like Christians really are more happy because they 'just know' they will 'live on' after they are dead. Actually, to be humble as always, it is a 'blessing' to see that (organized) religion isn't the way Also, if you were religious, (in many cases) you would have to worry about everything! Aborting, bad language on TV, discriminating more homos, euthanasia, blasphemery, indoctrination your Children, killing people out of the name of your god, ect, ect, ect.

Originally Posted by Neruo

My message to you: Cheer up Not like Christians really are more happy because they 'just know' they will 'live on' after they are dead. Actually, to be humble as always, it is a 'blessing' to see that (organized) religion isn't the way Also, if you were religious, (in many cases) you would have to worry about everything! Aborting, bad language on TV, discriminating more homos, euthanasia, blasphemery, indoctrination your Children, killing people out of the name of your god, ect, ect, ect.
[/b]

I happen to care about those things anywoo.
Which leads me to my question.

Originally Posted by Neruo

I would have peace with my life 'just ending', as long as I have lead a good life.[/b]

What is a "good life" in your eyes?

Have you ever taken a step back and taken awareness to the fact that you may very well be as indoctrinated to your unBELIEF, as any "believer" on this Forum?

Im wiccan, and Lucid Dreaming is not much delved into in the wiccan religion. But some use it (like me) to strengthen the mind and use it to help w/ abilities such as mind reading, traveling to the astral plane, fun stuff like so. I feel that by using Lucid Dreaming I have greatly increased my knowledge in general, and no matter what religion i would have chosen i believe LDing would have remained a constant

~R~

Hasn't effected my beliefs at all. I feel it is a logical thing, that is just another possibility, in our amazing minds. Which were created by an amazing God.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

I happen to care about those things anywoo.
Which leads me to my question.

What is a "good life" in your eyes?[/b]

That is up to YOU. I do hope that you, and all other people, include 'being nice to others' to your paradigm of a 'good life', but basically your life is good if you like it.

Have you ever taken a step back and taken awareness to the fact that you may very well be as indoctrinated to your unBELIEF, as any "believer" on this Forum?
[/b]

It seems unlikely that I am indoctrinated, since I sincerely have the feeling I have come to almost all conclusions by thinking myself. I never was told god didn't exist, I just drew that conclusion. I might be influenced by false data of some sort. However even then, unless there are some really important thing I really don't know, I don't think that is the case. Because how false can data be if it shines from all angels. Not like I just read/hear about atheism, I also read/hear about religion.

Point being: I never had a leading figure, a leading source, telling me religion was bullcrap. From alot of information, also from the other side (not like I never saw a Church from the inside), I made my own conclusions.

-

Anyhows, Howtzer, if you don't have peace with what you believe, then you are worse off then any religious bigot.

Originally Posted by Neruo

That is up to YOU. I do hope that you, and all other people, include 'being nice to others' to your paradigm of a 'good life', but basically your life is good if you like it.
It seems unlikely that I am indoctrinated, since I sincerely have the feeling I have come to almost all conclusions by thinking myself. I never was told god didn't exist, I just drew that conclusion. I might be influenced by false data of some sort. However even then, unless there are some really important thing I really don't know, I don't think that is the case. Because how false can data be if it shines from all angels. Not like I just read/hear about atheism, I also read/hear about religion.

Point being: I never had a leading figure, a leading source, telling me religion was bullcrap. From alot of information, also from the other side (not like I never saw a Church from the inside), I made my own conclusions.[/b]

That seems logical enough. I too have been through the same process it seems as you. I am just not as sure footed in what to believe at this point.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Anyhows, Howtzer, if you don't have peace with what you believe, then you are worse off then any religious bigot.[/b]

I certainly agree with you there.

~ Dreams as a learning and humbling experience.
I have had (In my eyes) the humbling experience of facing death in a few of my dreams. I am glad they were not lucid because my conditioned conscious perceptions did not alter my feelings.
When I was faced with this situation there was a great feeling of not knowing, an emptiness.
When manifested in a dream to where your mind thinks it is real it is entirely different than that of you and I asking each other - would you be comfortable with your choices on your death bed.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

That seems logical enough. I too have been through the same process it seems as you. I am just not as sure footed in what to believe at this point.[/b]

Doubt sucks balls, but it is the mother of all progress.

Or something. I am just trying to sound all 'cool' and 'spiritually' here.

I certainly agree with you there.
[/b]

Hm. To be honest, at least you are... honest. In a way. Because I feel like you really think that way. Ah, all I can say again is: Cheer up. I don't know, but just do what seems 'right' to you. Just because you don't believe in god it doesn't mean you can't believe in yourself and in the power of mankind.

~ Dreams as a learning and humbling experience.
I have had (In my eyes) the humbling experience of facing death in a few of my dreams. I am glad they were not lucid because my conditioned conscious perceptions did not alter my feelings.
When I was faced with this situation there was a great feeling of not knowing, an emptiness.
When manifested in a dream to where your mind thinks it is real it is entirely different than that of you and I asking each other - would you be comfortable with your choices on your death bed.

[/b]

Ah. That is kind of special indeed. I mean, just dieing in dreams isn't all that special, since if you play enough video games, you 'die' in 'real' (waking) life a whole lot to. But to actually, really, know (dream) that you are going to die... Yeah that must have quite an impact...

You know howetzer, I think that once you get old, you don't fear death as much. Of course I can never really know, untill I get old, but I think I will not 'fear' death as much as I do know. Sometimes I do feel very mortal, like 'omg I am going to be dead in 80 years'. But I honestly think few people that are aged 90 think 'omg I are going to die within a few years'. Like how young people always think old people arn't happy, while actually old people are more happy then young people (some study with some tests showed).

Point being:

Yeah. K. Dieing sucks balls. But as long as you live another day, that doesn't matter that day.

Betrayed in the fact that I have not been told everything, and that I have to find it out my own (possibly with the help of lucid dreaming).

If I could take the blue pill and believe, I would.

Be happy given the real choice between red and blue, for indoctrinated christians never get a glimpse of the red one.

So if you never see the red one, you do not care. It is all BLUE.

Doubt sucks balls, but it is the mother of all progress.[/b]

I have strong beliefs about this. People who have never seen that there are two pills may believe themselves to be living a full life, but I believe there is some part of their mind that is questioning it all. Since we are all interested in LD's, many of us think about the subconscious. I believe the people who are unaware that there are two pills, have a part of their subconscious that is always unfulfilled. I would not want that.

People who have seen the two pills and chosen the blue one are always aware at some level that they have chosen an illusion. The subconscious does not forget, so there is always some part of you that is unfulfilled.

Now for the interesting part: those who choose the red pill. When we choose the red pill, we give up on all the easy answers. It can seem empty at first. It can seem cold and lifeless, and pointless. But it is the only choice that is truly real, through and through. Accepting life as it is, the universe as it is, leads us to a place of acceptance. We come to see things as they are, and the joy we find is raw. A delusion that there is some happy eternity waiting for us at death can dull us to the joys of everyday life. Acceptance of this life, this moment, helps us to fully experience each moment.

Walking a single mountain, the path is all uphill, and we reach ever-greater heights. But we only find one peak. Walking a mountain range, the path covers peaks and valleys and ridges and saddles. But we get the joy of endless peaks.

The fluffy writings of a joyful atheist!

Originally Posted by JaphyR

Now for the interesting part: those who choose the red pill. When we choose the red pill, we give up on all the easy answers. It can seem empty at first. It can seem cold and lifeless, and pointless. But it is the only choice that is truly real, through and through. Accepting life as it is, the universe as it is, leads us to a place of acceptance. We come to see things as they are, and the joy we find is raw. A delusion that there is some happy eternity waiting for us at death can dull us to the joys of everyday life. Acceptance of this life, this moment, helps us to fully experience each moment.
[/b]

Quoted for truth.

It's such a relief to read something like that on this board (go read a few topics in "Beyond Dreaming" if you don't know what I mean).

Very well said.

i dont think anyone could ahve put that better
fair play.
Imran

I have had LD's and nothing about my beliefs have changed (I'm still a half-ass Christian who goes to church on christmas and when my school/parents make me.)
Although.... my LD's haven't been very 'spiritual'... you know like fly around and have sex with a hot chick... and destroy a town...