Thread: What Is This...free Will?

I'm a Christian, although not that deeply involved, and I find that people have a choice, because, even though I believe in God, there is no evidence to suggest that he does exist, so therefore people can do what they want.

Fundamental problem:

Bible states - God made man in likeness of himself; full of good, virtue, love, etc.

Man then sins against God.

Does this mean God sins?

Another one:

God is "all-knowing". How can you make any free-choices if God already knows everything you are going to do?

If he does not know - then he is not omnipotent.

Thoughts..?

~

To Onus - yeh i have been along that line before like this one:
God is perfect, and has experienced all
Has he experienced imperfection?
if so would that not make him imperfect?
If he hasn't then he hasn't experienced all and cannot be the Alpha Omega...
I believe that these are fundamental 'loopholes' in the text among others. It is a matter of dedicating thought to a problem before renouncing it or accpeting it.

Iceman:

yes people can choose to believe in god wether his existence is proven or not, many peopl edo and many do not.
But the question here is regarding our eternal reward/punishment in which we have no choice but only the consequence of a tormented eternity if the 'wrong' 'choice' is made.
that choice would be to(among many things) have free thought without fear of sin or punishment regarding the many facets of experiences and ideas available to all of us here in this time on this planet.

And i thought that at least, the very least, Keeper would have something to say...ah well.

Ami being too forward with everyone out there?
Perhaps i need to change my posting habits.
Wine and dine ya first then drop the hints...

yes I believe it is free will. though I think it is greatly misunderstood what it means to follow and believe in God. and why someone would go to hell if they dont.

I only knew one other person on this board who carried the same beliefs, and not many christians carry this belief even though it is supported by the bible. To believe in the alternative in my belief, contridicts the image of God that christians claim to believe. As a loving God does not send people to hell becuase they do not believe, when God is hidden from us. A cruel test dont you think?

the misunderstanding is 1. who is God 2. what does it mean to follow God 3. who is Jesus Christ 4. what does it mean to follow Jesus Christ 5. what does it mean if you do not know God 6. what does it mean if you do not follow God and so on. The answers to these question are where the confusions and arguments begin.

we can argue forever who/what God is, and we will never find any real answers. However, in this belief, Jesus did describe what he/who is and what it means to follow him. The first thing to understand is that Jesus did not describe himself as a man, or even a human being.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life"

The idea here is that Jesus is the Christ in human form. You can google Christ Consciousness if you are curious, you won't find a lot of churches talk about it. So what is Christ then, if Christ existed before Christ became a human? Christ is the way, the truth and the life. Christ is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. The bread of life. The light of the world and so on.

Think of it as algebra Xb

Someone who believes in the truth, believes in Christ. Becuase that is what Christ is literally. A lot of people believe in the truth or seek the truth, or seek to follow the truth when they are not even Christian or even believe in God. I dont see this as problem personally, since it was mans definition of God that made them turn away from what they felt was not the truth. All humans seek the truth. And this goes with the biblical idea that all humans seek God *Christ* As such, while many profess to not believe in God, or Jesus - in their own way they do believe in Christ, or follow Christ.

If you do not have the way, you are lost in darkness. If you do not have the truth, you are led away by lies. If you do not have life, you are dead *spiritually*

You can not reach heaven not becuase when you are lost in darkness you have no hope. And when you have no hope you do not believe you will be saved. You dont believe in your own salvation, then you damn yourself. If you are led away by lies you can not see the truth that heaven is in your reach. If you are dead spiritually, you neither love others or yourself but remain in a state of limbo.

In my belief, Christ became Jesus to spread a very simple message 'you are saved, and the only criteria to being saved is simply believing you are saved'. And by simply believing you are saved, you at the least have hope. And when you have hope, you can never damn yourself or be damned.

I'm sure there are a lot of Christians who would argue with my point of view, frankly I dont care. I seek the truth, not to be brainwashed.

Going back to free will. Think of a healthy human being, and think of a depressed human being. Which do you think exercises their free will more? Which do you think feels trapped? Or think of an ignorant person, and think of an educated person, which do you think exercises their free will more? Free will is not about choosing to believe in Christ or not to believe. You first have to have the truth to make a free willed choice.

When I talk about just how irrational Hell would be, Christians usually try to justify it by saying that God gives us a choice. I have always said that a bank robber gives the tellers a a similar choice, except Hell is an infinitely worse threat than mere death. When you have a gun pointed at you, you don't really have a choice, except comply or die. And how arrogant would the bank robber be if he dared to make that excuse in court?

Is "rape" actually consentual if the "rapist" tells the victim that she can either have sex with him or be killed? Does she really have a "choice"?

Nice post

I've been thinking about something that i haven't heard but sifted through in my head.
(devils advocate here&#33-->"God give you a choice to ask for forgiveness"

another one of the many twisting uses of free will to explain that it is again, humankinds fault for banishing themselves to hell for lack of 'sight' into the all encompassing, 'truth'. Again, to ask for such forgiveness would mean accompanying god for the remainder of your life here on earth and the rest of eternity when you die...or else! Choice / no choice?

any thought?

that doesnt make very much sense to me?? You are saying the choice is between two negatives. The 'big' choice is not between two negatives, it is between a negative and a positive.

If you choose to walk away from all that is in the light, then you walk into darkness. If you CHOOSE to be in the darkness, how do you complain there is no light? You wanted to be in darkness didn't you? Who is going to care if you complain you can't see where you are walking? Its your own stupid fault you walked into darkness knowing that there is light.

But if you don't UNDERSTAND that there is even light, you come to the conclusion that there is only darkness. So you walk in the darkness, ignorant and not knowing any better, lost and walking into walls. But you are not in the darkness becuase you truly choose to be. How would it be your fault that you simply didn't understand? Why would you have to apologize to anyone? or even, WHO here is saying you HAVE to apologize? Its expected and understood that the person lost in darkness actually WANTS to be in the light.

I didnt mean to say that someone without hope, that is its their fault, or that they deserve to suffer becuase they were 'stupid' or something. The truth, you need the truth before you can really choose. This is why I don't really feel, free will is really about choosing to be with God or not. Becuase you need God in some form or way to make a free willed choice to begin with. Without the truth, you don't really have free will, in this scenario the truth comes from God/the truth is God.

We can look at education as an example, children with no education in reality have no choices for their future career. The only choice they really have is to be poor. The choice in this scenario isn't whether or not the child chooses school right? Its what they do with their education.

free will blossoms after you have knowledge

I still see only two negative choices:
1. Be in eternal servitude to god
2. Go to hell

Before i go on you should know two things:
1. I was born, raised, and taught through a positive christian belief and christian home. I became a 'born-again christian'. I have seen, at a time believed, and spread the word of the christian god.

2. Through educating myself and finding knowledge i have become a Born Again NON-Christian. there was a time when i had great anger for being deceived by my family for soo long, being taught only one way of spiritual life through their religion. If it was fair and children were given a chance to see ALL of the paths available to them outside and inside themselves i believe there would be much less pain and anger in the world. Instead, many are 'educated' with glistening eyes as they hear ONLY stories from the bible, ONLY go to a christian church, are told to ONLY marry another of their own belief (to further the one-sided views on existence, further strenghtening what i have come to see as accpeted ignorance to ANY other possibility).

I have not walked into darkness to wallow in it. I believe life has more than light and there are more forces at work than just the comforting side of things. There is light and there is dark, there is positive and there is negative, (through human invention_there is good and there is evil). Don't be afraid to step in to the darkness and explore what else is here in this existence. I have freed myself from the restrictions of dogmas and religious conviction, finding my own light (which i would never say or impose on anyone as being the ONE TRUE light). I live in my positives yet reflect and experience my negatives, it is nothing to fear, try not to shy away from it like a frightened sheep.

Living this one chance that i have here on earth being restricted by the bible is not a very positive choice to me. To live beside god i must do HIS WILL, [ remember: he who is without his own will is without his own mind]this is something that i do not wish to be packaged in. This leaves out many other avenues of thought that i would not be able to explore because they would lead me away from god.
Choosing to live my entire life one way through christianity and the doctrines of that faith in god is not something that i believe is positive for me as a growing and changing human. Also, going to hell is not something that i find to be a pleaseing or acceptable consequence of my 'choice'.
With christianity you may argue that you continue to grow---in your relationship with god--but as soon as that acceptance is made, you restrict your choices to whatever is enveloped in that Scripture.

We are alwasy told to "be yourself" , "be individual", "know thy(your)self", etc. Yet when it comes to religious conviciton, the beliefs that are imposed upon those who do not believe and those who choose to believe only serve to create a cookie-cutter army of soul-diers.

If you believe in a soul then you know that it is the one true thing that seperates each one of us into True Individuals. Packaging that one truth into a mold of christianity is the most negative choice i can think of spiritually, especially so when i am told that my choice of spiritual path is leading me nowhere and into darkness when it has opened my eyes and spirit much wider than christianity ever could or will.

I'm sorry you feel that way, and I completely understand that religious dogma would give you that point of view. Hmm..I'm not going to try to change your beliefs..but it does disturb me that people think you must 'serve' God, and that that means being apart of a Christian religion.

I have a different point of view things. I think that when you love someone, that is serving God. I want to get rid of the image that serving God means serving a Zeus figure, I am talking about a more omnipresent, universal entity. If this makes it an easier way to understand from where I am coming from, think of serving the universe, or existance, life. All you have to do is send some positive energy out there

Worship is greatly misunderstood, most especially in Christianity. Becuase Christianity does not even understand what worship means, when it is forced onto others *such as children* problems happen. Worship does not mean to get on your knees and feel worthless in the face of a unkown being who is almighty and powerful that will hurl you down to hell if you glance the other way. It was never meant to be an institution of fear, or even a forced 'servitude'.

Christianity almost always forgets that God is supposed to omnipresent, and Christ is supposed to be inside of us. Western Christians have no idea just how Tao like their religion actually is. This aint a greek pantheon here! You aint gonna find Zeus inside of his follower unless its a giant bull penis!

I believe spirituality is the way, not religion. You questioned your religion, and you left. I think that was a good decision.

I can agree wtih your point about the Greek Pantheon, but even the followers of mythology all those centuries ago Believed in what they were following. Perhaps in the future, a specific or all religion will be looked upon in this light?

"I have a different point of view things. I think that when you love someone, that is serving God. I want to get rid of the image that serving God means serving a Zeus figure, I am talking about a more omnipresent, universal entity. If this makes it an easier way to understand from where I am coming from, think of serving the universe, or existance, life. All you have to do is send some positive energy out there"

Dont get me wrong , because in this sense i believe that we share the same idea about 'god' . I do not look at him as a father figure as i once did while succoombing to religion, as a child and teenager who cannot help but to visualize god a certain way due to the restrictive teaching that causes perception to follow a certain way.

The only difference I will make is that while serving only positive energy, power, god, whatever, there is an accepted ignorance to the negative that accompanies it. There is a lack of knowledge (wanting to know or knowing) about the negative as if it was brushed under the mat.

And you don't need to be sorry for me (pity) as i have become more full spiritually and understand more about myself by shedding the religious deception

Is 'I WILL KILL YOU IF YOU DON"T LISTEN TO ME" really a choice?

Do indoctrinated children in bible-camps really have a choice?

unfortunately neuro, they do not.

Our youngest years determine wether we become PEOPLE or SHEEPLE. Children cannot help what information is pounded into their heads.

Is a form of child abuse.

I'll second that statement that such indoctrination of children at a young age is a form of abuse...one that goes much deeper than the physical
Spiritual abuse.

If you know when we sinned hell was are final place to head to but God fix that by letting his son died for us to get a place in heaven so it not like if you do not follow me than you will burn in hell it nothing like that.

So what is revelations all about then?

Since Christianity is polytheistic and Romans says Lucifer is god of this world I ask which God are you talking about? Lucifer the God or Gog the God? Because each of these Gods hold different purposes in that religious dogma. Or whatever... GOD! Dose free will actually exist anywhere?

the one who speaks predominately throughout the Bible and also decides where you go after you die. That God

Originally posted by Conforming Non-Conformist at 9:44
So what is revelations all about then

Revelations is basicly the end of this world and life then it where you go you go (heaven or hell).

Like the last days of Earth is already starting guess who the begin it? (i can give a like bible text and show you.)

Hope this help lol

Originally posted by Conforming Non-Conformist
The above POLL is a question that i have had for quite sometime and have not got around to asking anyone here.
The Christian belief (from my contact) in sin is along the lines of:

"sin is a choice for humans to make, a choice made possible with free will given to us by God"



The topic of this topic is: Do you believe that we are given a Choice or we are given Consequence?

*A small conversation between god and humankind*

NOTE: this is not found in the bible directly (at least i have not found it)
We are approached from the beginning by God and told that he has given us free will:

God: I have given you free will to make any choices you want while here on earth
Humankind: Thanks God!

So we have established free will and now on to the Laws of God:

We as humans are told by God that if we choose to follow, obey, submit, be subordinate to, and acknowledge him as our God (and accept Jesus...some may not believe this part but i want to cover most bases here) that we can be assured of a spot at his feet in heaven, whorshipping him for eternity in lavish bliss.

God: With your new found free will, if you choose to follow me i shall guarantee you a place here in Heaven
Humankind: Thanks God!

We as humans are also told that if we do not use our free will to choose to follow God, that God has a place reserved for us after we die as unbelievers. this place is called Hell. A place of eternal fire, torment, and gnashing of teeth.

God: Those of you who do not use your FREE WILL to follow and accept me shall be cast into the lake of fire where you will be left for an eternity without my supreme presence.
Humankind: Shhhhhit!


Many humans seem to still believe that there is a choice here. that God has graciously given us a choice to make with our Free Wills. To re-cap:

We can accept god and serve him for eternity OR
We do not accept god and are thrown into whatever the most inconceivable torment that a human mind can conceive of as a punishment.

(basically: Love me or go to Hell&#33

Does this sound like choice?
Sure, it is sugar-coated with the illusion of free will leaving the oness of responsibility placed solely on humankind. Where is the choice?

Lets look at Consequence:
"Something that logically or naturally follows from an action or condition."

The casting into hell of our souls follows from the action of not accepting god as the one and only god of the universe, all reality and un-reality, all things great and wide, large and small, etc..
Anyone in their 'right' mind would see this and say, well i don't want to go THERE! Eternal servitude it is.
who in their right mind would, if approached with a scenario similar to this but on earth, make such a 'choice' to be tormented? let's say:

thief: give me you necklace or ill torture you until you die
victim: here is my necklace....!

who would say?

victim: no, you're gonna have to torture me for it.

necklace = soul?

Free Will is an illusion. adding to the schizophrenic nature of the 'choice' that the Bible and the god of the bible give to us here on earth.
So please feel free to answer my POLL and maybe add a few responses to this little forum.

Ok first if you think about it , Do you think God wanted to make hell , NO he had to after we sinned before we sinned there was no hell because if there was the devil would of been throw into helll instead upon the earth. That like are country do you think they wanted to make a jail no they had to cause people broke the laws and that was there punishment but there are people out there trying to get you out. You could use the same think with God.

This is just a senceiro(better to explain this way).

Ok God created the heaven and earth but not hell so God thought "well my people are perfect and there no place for a punishment.Then later God made man , then man sinned , God HAD to make a jail(hell) but God thought welll i not letting them go i will send someone to fight for them(jesus). Ok jesus died now were all at judgement day it like a big court. Ok you get saved some jesus is your lawyer. The devil is on the other side trying to find you gulitly. The devil speak and tell god all the thing you have done wrong , then jesus stand up and said father "This man is free from sin cause i took the punishment for him and he ask me to save him from sin and i did and he has the right to enter the kingdom of heaven. God then say to you "You have ask for my son to save you and he did and so you may enter in through the gates of heaven. , God said next case say one of your friend walk in. Jesus is not sitting with he cause he did not ask jesus to save him so jesus can not defend him so the devil tell God what he have done wrong so God tell him "You have turn down my son offer into heaven so you may not enter into the Kingdom of heaven but you have to go to hell cause you choose that instead when you turn down my son. One of God angel escort you to the the entrance of hell and you are cast in.)

See God gave the choice to follow his rules and we disobey him and are only way after death was hell but God could not allowed what he love to see be turn into hell. So he send his Jesus his son to died for us , do not think that God force jesus to died but jesus love us too that he say yes when God ask him to do it.

So God was not being mean to us when he made hell for are punishment but in was just are jail cause we were not worthty anymore to be in heaven cause we were not perfect.

I have this cd i am going to add to my pc later i upload later for you to listen to later i hope this help and i am here to answer anymore questions

The cd file are not exactly about this topic but it might help.

Well I don't see a problem with Choice when you rule out that Hell doesn't exist.

Good luck with your debate guys : goodjob2: Keep up the good work!

Originally posted by Ne-Yo
Well I don't see a problem with Choice when you rule out that Hell doesn't exist.

Good luck with your debate guys Keep up the good work!

I might not know what your saying i thought you might be saying "There was no problem with a choice when hell was not around right.

Well give me 10 to 15 mins to upload this cd song first it now exactly about this topic but it might help in a sense lol

Originally Posted by DoWhatIwant

I might not know what your saying i thought you might be saying "There was no problem with a choice when hell was not around right.

Well give me 10 to 15 mins to upload this cd song first it now exactly about this topic but it might help in a sense lol
[/b]

Nah I'm merely implying that hell doesn't exist.

In response to DowhatIwats post...
That's exactly why I don't "accept" god, Jesus and stuff. Because if it's true, their way of doing things is so small, primitive, unholy, ridiculous that they are not worthy of me "worshiping" them (which is also a primitive thing to ask somebody). I'm not saying that there is no chance of god or heaven existing, but if there is a god, he is probably totaly different (not such a being you described for starters). And you can't say that somebody who believes in God is more prefect then someone like me.