God Comes To You And Says...

**O'nus** · 02-03-2007 03:33 PM

I would like to propose a question to all theists alike. I do not want to make anyone edgy or nervous of a debate - I think you will feel comfortable and think after the question is read. Consider the following:

God (or whichever deity you believe in), comes to you. You know it is "the One".

God says to you, "Killing is good! You can not go into heaven unless you kill!"

Are you able to kill another person now full-well knowing that God told you that it is ok?

This example is derived from the works of Plato: "Are good things good because God's say they are? Or are good things good because they are good in themselves?" The ladder implying universality of "good".

Accept the ladder in the aforementioned and you must accept the universality of good.

Thoughts..?

~

**Howie** · 02-03-2007 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by O

I would like to propose a question to all theists alike. I do not want to make anyone edgy or nervous of a debate - I think you will feel comfortable and think after the question is read. Consider the following:

God (or whichever deity you believe in), comes to you. You know it is "the One".

God says to you, "Killing is good! You can not go into heaven unless you kill!"

Are you able to kill another person now full-well knowing that God told you that it is ok?

This example is derived from the works of Plato: "Are good things good because God's say they are? Or are good things good because they are good in themselves?" The ladder implying universality of "good".

Accept the ladder in the aforementioned and you must accept the universality of good.

Thoughts..?

~
[/b]

I feel this late in the game O'nus that those of us that have been taught that killing is not moral, that it would be very difficult.
Those, such as many insurgents that have been brainwashed to beleive so from a young age, the pyche would allow it.
The younger more immpressionable minds can be influeced so much more profoundly.

Stating the proposition the way you have makes it unique in the fact that you are directly told by "the one"
So as hard as it is to fathom, if I did so beleive, unconditionally... I might very well act upon "its" wishes.

**O'nus** · 02-03-2007 03:58 PM

Howetzer, good point - the psyche has tremendous difficulty changing to traumatic new views and prospectives when it has been living by that certain way for so long. Consider the effects of this to those of the limitations of mind perpetuated by certain beliefs - do your beliefs limit you?

The subtle question in the example is, 'what is good?'. Is good something universal that all human beings should follow? Is good something relative to each being?

For the theists - is good good because it is a universal good? If that is so, what made it universally good? How was good established to be universal amongst all beings? Do all beings truly follow this universal good? Consider the diversity of moral beliefs amongst cultures while contemplating this.

Or, is good only good because a good said it is good? If that is so, then are our moral codes and ethical beliefs entirely reliant upon the opinion of a God..? That is, if the God can decide what is good, then that in itself proves that the God's 'decision' is derived from opinion and reason. What does this mean..?

~

**Howie** · 02-03-2007 04:22 PM

Much like a child that his/her parents tell them to do something that they know deep down is wrong. Becaue the child obeys, beleives and trust their parents, they will likley act on their wishes.

It seems we, for the most part have an inate sense of right and wrong. No diffinitive line ofcoarse beween individuals, but generally speaking, 'non believers' can certainly be a good semaratins as well as a great phelathrepist.

So would we act even if we felt it was wrong?
Would we question the almighty? (it could be the adversary in diguise???

)

**taltho** · 02-03-2007 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by O

I would like to propose a question to all theists alike. I do not want to make anyone edgy or nervous of a debate - I think you will feel comfortable and think after the question is read. Consider the following:

God (or whichever deity you believe in), comes to you. You know it is "the One".

God says to you, "Killing is good! You can not go into heaven unless you kill!"

Are you able to kill another person now full-well knowing that God told you that it is ok?

This example is derived from the works of Plato: "Are good things good because God's say they are? Or are good things good because they are good in themselves?" The ladder implying universality of "good".

Accept the ladder in the aforementioned and you must accept the universality of good.

Thoughts..?

~
[/b]

Given Howetzer's excellent replies. I can only seek to add one thing.

Proposing that, the evolution of religion, is or acts as the embodiment of of "goodness" to encourage people to make the choice of "good", then in this aspect spirituality/religion iis in its positive manifestation. I'm suggesting that any human wants to worship, and in this quest they term the unknown. These people (prophets, seers, and tyrants, great leadership at any point militant to diplomat to holy-man/woman)to whatever agenda are the embodiment of that organization however large or small. They become the Icon of that organization, and appear to hold magical and/or spiritual-mystical powers. The followers of these organizations are awed by their hierarchy's perceived ability's and are as, Howetzer said, bred into the idealism of the given ideology. It's just people talking to people.

My point . I'm suggesting that sometimes these people suggest to, and manipulate their society's toward backward views. Like hte act of killing and such.

I don't believe god (being the embodiment of good) could or would ask for murder. It's a trick question. Or...

Supposing god being a deity could have one kill for the sake of preserving the good, but even that deity would be questionable in it's nature yet none the less, toward perceived justifiable ends.

**Neruo** · 02-03-2007 10:55 PM

Something weird would have to happen for me to all of a sudden accept absolutes. 'This is the one'. I would never be totally certain of that. But just for the sake of it: I do have an answer, I have already thought about this. I thought about it, and if the bible is right, and such a god exist, I would be happy. Because I would know I had done the right thing, by not following a tyrant, but form my own opinion. Also, trough logic thinking, no god could contempt anyone for not believing, for there is SO much evidence NOT to believe in a SPECIFIC god.

By the way, are you Christian, O'nus? Just wondering.

**shark!** · 02-05-2007 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by O

God (or whichever deity you believe in), comes to you. You know it is "the One".

God says to you, "Killing is good! You can not go into heaven unless you kill!"

Are you able to kill another person now full-well knowing that God told you that it is ok?

This example is derived from the works of Plato: "Are good things good because God's say they are? Or are good things good because they are good in themselves?" The ladder implying universality of "good".

Accept the ladder in the aforementioned and you must accept the universality of good.

Thoughts..?

~
[/b]

I would kill God. And then I would go to heaven.