Thread: If You Were Infinitely Powerful, Would You Have Yourself Tortured?

If i was allpowerfull, I'd make myself dissapear. Or explode into a universe with endless big bangs and crunches.

I couldn't resist this one.

Answer: Nope, and besides the Almighty Father didn't have himself tortured if that's what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by Ne

I couldn't resist this one.

Answer: Nope, and besides the Almighty Father didn't have himself tortured if that's what you're getting at.[/b]

well that all depends on weither you believe Jesus is indepentent to God or that they are one collective being( the trinity). If you believe the later then i suppose you could say he was tortured as well.

Though seeing your kid get nails in his hands would be pretty bad. O hey also did he have a crown of thorns stuck in his head? One story if it i read he did, and another he didn't..

Originally Posted by joey11223

well that all depends on weither you believe Jesus is indepentent to God or that they are one collective being( the trinity). If you believe the later then i suppose you could say he was tortured as well.

Though seeing your kid get nails in his hands would be pretty bad. O hey also did he have a crown of thorns stuck in his head? One story if it i read he did, and another he didn't..[/b]

There is not a dependent factor here. Jesus never said that he and the Father were both comprised as one total God-head and scriptures, if read with any comprehension, would show that they are separate entities.

Yes, I would... and does this REALLY need another topic. Seriously, go pick on Islam or Hinduism.

If it took me being tortured to get people to heaven, I surely would, without even thinking about it.

I would might torture myself to show off my power. I would be standing infront of enemies trying to kill me, inflicting injuries on my flesh to show them that I'm invincible, and kill them afterwards of course.

Being infinitely powerful I would hardly have anything to lose, as I could simply create myself another body, or be without one. It would probably hurt like hell, but being able to endure the physical pain altough being able to chose not to would make oneself stronger and better.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Yes, I would... and does this REALLY need another topic. Seriously, go pick on Islam or Hinduism.

If it took me being tortured to get people to heaven, I surely would, without even thinking about it.[/b]

lol. Ahhhwww we are picking on Christians :" (

Because Muslims and Hindu's, if there are any since the only Muslim here left, don't react as if they are being discriminated, it is hilariously exaggerated.

Also, it is clear that you can't logically. God didn't need to sacrifice Jesus, he could have achieved the same effect on mankind in any other way be wanted. If he wanted, be could let an easter bunny hop around, curing people, and then the easter bunny would die a peaceful death. God could have created our minds in a way that Christ's death would save and enlighten as much people as that easter bunny.

You fail to think as a deity, you can only think as a dogmatist.

When Jesus was being crucified they said "If you're really God then why don't you save yourself?" It was because by dying, he saved all of us. If he saved himSELF from death, his being on the earth would be pointless and he wouldn't be able to save us. He came to the earth to die, it was his main intention all along.

I'll still answer your question. No I wouldn't have myself tortured. I can't possibly take man's punishment because I sin. Even if I could, I don't think I would go to hell for an eternity to save everyone else from it. Because I love God more than anyone else.

Also, it is clear that you can't logically. God didn't need to sacrifice Jesus, he could have achieved the same effect on mankind in any other way be wanted. If he wanted, be could let an easter bunny hop around, curing people, and then the easter bunny would die a peaceful death. God could have created our minds in a way that Christ's death would save and enlighten as much people as that easter bunny.[/b]

You aren't thinking like God, you're thinking like...yourself but with infinite power (I can't think like God by the way.) God doesn't want to show off or anything. He just loves us. Suffering as much as he did showed his love more than anything else possible probably.

Originally Posted by King

I would might torture myself to show off my power. I would be standing infront of enemies trying to kill me, inflicting injuries on my flesh to show them that I'm invincible, and kill them afterwards of course.

Being infinitely powerful I would hardly have anything to lose, as I could simply create myself another body, or be without one. It would probably hurt like hell, but being able to endure the physical pain altough being able to chose not to would make oneself stronger and better.[/b]

If you were infinitely powerful, you could turn off the pain centers in your brain.

yeah lol

*turns off pain response*

" oh right right, owwww ahhh ahhh ahhhh!"

"urm... ahhh stop ahhhh..."

And then he could say, "Hey, I've got an idea. Maybe I could change MY law of reality that says I have to have myself tortured in order to change MY rules about the eternal torture of MY creations." I think an infinitely intelligent being might be able to come up with that wild idea.

To reply to my own question, I think the idea of somebody infinitely powerful having himself tortured is just way too absurd for me to even begin to make sense of it. "He can do absolutely ANYTHING, but he HAS TO have himself tortured to get what he wants." That just isn't even close to being logical.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

If it took me being tortured to get people to heaven, I surely would, without even thinking about it.[/b]

Then you wouldn't be infinitely powerful.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Yes, I would... and does this REALLY need another topic. Seriously, go pick on Islam or Hinduism.[/b]

I spent a week arguing with the only Muslim who has ever come here, as far as I know. He left, and I don't think he is coming back. If Hindus want to debate, that would be cool too. Tell them I said to come on down. But still, please stop whining about the fact that we are debating religion in a religion forum. It is ridiculous. You don't have to participate in this, but you keep doing it, and all you ever really say is that atheists are being mean to Christians by challenging them to debates on religion. This is a religion forum! You might as well go stand in the middle of a roller skating rink and say, "Gosh darn it, everybody is roller skating! Stop roller skating around me!" What exactly is it you keep expecting to happen here? I would love to know.

... and tell me, how is it fair to put his subjects through torture he would be unwilling to be put through himself? He wouldn't change the rules, even for his own son, because it's the wrong thing to do. Flat out, its the wrong thing. Choosing comfort in a situation where you give your subjects no choice but pain? Would you choose comfort? If you would, you are a very self-centered person.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

... and tell me, how is it fair to put his subjects through torture he would be unwilling to be put through himself? He wouldn't change the rules, even for his own son, because it's the wrong thing to do. Flat out, its the wrong thing. Choosing comfort in a situation where you give your subjects no choice but pain? Would you choose comfort? If you would, you are a very self-centered person.[/b]

So he had no choice but to make it where pain is necessary? He had no choice but to let that bizarre rule stand? He had no choice but to have himself tortured? Then he is not infinitely powerful! If he is infinitely powerful, he can CHANGE THE RULES. He could change the rules regarding morality, fairness, free will, pork on Sunday, lessons to be learned, and whatever else it is you think is a bigger deal than infinite happiness for everybody forever.

I'll tell you what... Before this conversation goes any further, there is something we need to clear up. What is your understanding of what "infinite power" is? You keep suggesting there are limits on it. Do you know what "infinite" means? It means "no limits". What do you think "infinite power" is?

I'm not suggesting any limits on it... besides morality. God had the choice to avoid the pain, but he loved us so much that pain didn't matter to him. He was proving, once again, that his is a kind, loving, and above all else, fair god.

Please tell me, if you had a system of morality that had worked splendid for years, would you scrap it all just to hide from a little pain, which you put your subjects through?

I dont think Jesus was sent to be tortured or even sent to be crucified, he brought his gospel and did his works while in flesh. I think it was 'fated' that he was crucified becuase of mankinds actions, and not necessarily Gods plan.

No I would not have myself tortured

God loves justice. Because of that he put limits on himself, which he COULD break, but he loves justice so why would he not be just (and just take us all to heaven whether we deserve hell or not.)

Originally Posted by juroara

I dont think Jesus was sent to be tortured or even sent to be crucified, he brought his gospel and did his works while in flesh. I think it was 'fated' that he was crucified becuase of mankinds actions, and not necessarily Gods plan.

No I would not have myself tortured[/b]

He came to die for us. What he preached wouldn't mean anything if he hadn't died for us. If he didn't die for us, we wouldn't be able to go to heaven. He came to make a way for us to get to God, to close the gap that seperates us from God. He knew all along that Judas would betray him, even before he chose him as a disciple. I'm sure there are many ways he could have easily avoided being crucified and tortured by just knowing what we were thinking.

Just to try and show you that it was God's plan: God foreshadowed Jesus being crucified when he told Abraham (I think it was Abraham) to take his only son and sacrifice him. He did as God told him to (until as he was just about to sacrifice him an angel told him to stop saying it was just a test.) And I'm pretty sure this took place at the exact place that Jesus was later crucified.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

I'm not suggesting any limits on it... besides morality. God had the choice to avoid the pain, but he loved us so much that pain didn't matter to him. He was proving, once again, that his is a kind, loving, and above all else, fair god.

Please tell me, if you had a system of morality that had worked splendid for years, would you scrap it all just to hide from a little pain, which you put your subjects through?[/b]

Again, what is your understanding of what "infinite power" is? You are suggesting he has rules of reality to work within. What is "infinite power"?

If you say God HAS TO do X to achieve Y, you are saying he is not infinitely powerful. Something infinitely powerful could achieve Y without doing X. Or do you claim that he is UNABLE to do that?

What is infinite power?

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

until as he was just about to sacrifice him an angel told him to stop saying it was just a test.[/b]

I don't get that at all. Why would God need to perform a "test"? Didn't he already know what the result would be? Then why conduct a "test"?

Originally Posted by Universal;

I don't get that at all. Why would God need to perform a "test"? Didn't he already know what the result would be? Then why conduct a "test"?[/b]

I don't know how God "thinks" when he's outside of time, so I don't know why he does things when he knows what the result will be. Also, I already said, he foreshadowed Jesus' death by doing this.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

God loves justice. Because of that he put limits on himself, which he COULD break, but he loves justice so why would he not be just (and just take us all to heaven whether we deserve hell or not.)
He came to die for us. What he preached wouldn't mean anything if he hadn't died for us. If he didn't die for us, we wouldn't be able to go to heaven. He came to make a way for us to get to God, to close the gap that seperates us from God. He knew all along that Judas would betray him, even before he chose him as a disciple. I'm sure there are many ways he could have easily avoided being crucified and tortured by just knowing what we were thinking.

Just to try and show you that it was God's plan: God foreshadowed Jesus being crucified when he told Abraham (I think it was Abraham) to take his only son and sacrifice him. He did as God told him to (until as he was just about to sacrifice him an angel told him to stop saying it was just a test.) And I'm pretty sure this took place at the exact place that Jesus was later crucified.[/b]

me and you can go head on head for hours, will any good come of it? lets find out.

I dont believe Jesus came to die for our sins as Christians have so put it. Believing in Jesus alone wont get you to heaven. You cant kill 500 hundred people, believe in Jesus and expect to have a friendly relationship with God.

I do believe Jesus died for our sins, but not in the traditional Christian sense. The original human state (Adam and Eve) was a sinless state. There was no death. After the original sin, there was death. Here the original sin was seperation from God - and through our sin we created the misery on earth. We created death - which is an illusion.

Jesus died becuase of our past sin, our original sin of seperation creating the illusion of death. By resurrectiong Jesus hoped that people would understood that death was not real, and we truly can have everlasting life if we so choose to. Since our entire reality is based on our choices (free will).

Jesus words were "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

This does not say "Believe in me or burn in hell" as christians have so translated it. Neither does this say "Become christian or burn in hell" anymore than it says "This is how you get to heaven". anymore than it says the words, heaven, hell, or christian. . . .

The way the truth and the life is the Christ, aka the tao. Without the Christ in you, you can not reconnect with God. Note that the words here were the Father, not heaven. Jesus is not saying you cant get to heaven, he is saying you can not reconnect with God without the Christ. He is saying that only through the Christ can we undo the original sin of seperation from God.

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus"

If Jesus was God, what mind is in him? Jesus can not be God then. The mind that is in him is the Christ mind, the bridge between us and God.

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

This in a nutshell is the modern day belief of christ consciousness - that no creation can exist outside of God (in the father). But that doesnt mean one is one with God (father in me). Note Jesus is not saying he is God, or that his works are his own. His works are Gods, and he is one with God (oneness with God). Here Jesus is also saying he is not talking about himself (not of myself) but of the mind in him, the Christ, the bridge between us and God.

So where was Jesus talking about the mind in him, and not of himself? How about such verses where he calls himself the way the truth and the life? Here it is not Jesus talking about himself, but the one in him, the Christ.

************

and here you have it! Jesus prophesizing about the dogmatic christian churches. These future churches have done the works in Jesus name, but Jesus did not recognize it? Why? Why would Jesus not recognize works done in his name? We know this is a future event, becuase of 'will say'. And what other group could this be but christians?

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

Becuase doing the works that Jesus has done is not the same as doing the works in Jesus name. But you can only do those works that Jesus has done through the Christ consciousness. Only with the Christ mind in you. Here Jesus is also showing how believing in him doesnt just mean, believe in him and go to heaven. It means his messages as well - and he has told us soooooo many times to do his works. There is NO free ride to heaven.

What happens when the members of the church lack the Christ mind in them? They can claim any bullshit in the name of Jesus

iniquity: an unjust act

Everyone knows its true. The catholic church cant hide it. How many unjust acts has the church done in the name of Jesus? You can not do works in the name of Jesus. You must have that mind which was in Jesus and then do those works.

Originally Posted by Merlin38

If you were infinitely powerful, you could turn off the pain centers in your brain.[/b]

Then it would not be torture.

If I were all-powerful, I wouldn't torture myself immediately. But if I found it necessary to get something I wanted, I might. My best friend abandons me. How do I get him back? Use my omnipotence to remake him in such a way as to cancel the split? No, teleport into his living room and hope he isn't too freaked out. Hmmm, that doesn't sound right either. Maybe I'd use my power on myself first, for wisdom, omniscience and anything else I think of after those.

But I must follow my own rules.

Originally Posted by Brilliand

If I were all-powerful, I wouldn't torture myself immediately. But if I found it necessary to get something I wanted, I might. My best friend abandons me. How do I get him back? Use my omnipotence to remake him in such a way as to cancel the split? No, teleport into his living room and hope he isn't too freaked out. Hmmm, that doesn't sound right either. Maybe I'd use my power on myself first, for wisdom, omniscience and anything else I think of after those.

But I must follow my own rules.[/b]

You could get your friend back and make it where you did nothing against any rules. You could make it where you poof your friendship back AND your friend came back with free will. Infinite power is the ability to do ANYTHING. You could make 5 + 7 = H = car. ANYTHING.

Originally Posted by Universal

You could get your friend back and make it where you did nothing against any rules. You could make it where you poof your friendship back AND your friend came back with free will. Infinite power is the ability to do ANYTHING. You could make 5 + 7 = H = car. ANYTHING.[/b]

Yes God could change the rules but that would be a big problem just think about it.

P.S


re-edit later!
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Originally Posted by Faken

Yes God could change the rules but that would be a big problem just think about it.

P.S
re-edit later!
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Um, no. He explaned it a few posts back.

Originally posted by Universal Mind
If you say God HAS TO do X to achieve Y, you are saying he is not infinitely powerful. Something infinitely powerful could achieve Y without doing X. Or do you claim that he is UNABLE to do that?

There are no rules when you are god.