Thread: Free Will

My understanding is that everyone before jesus went to hell for thier sins. So in order to free all the people in hell God needed to send someone perfect on earth to lead a perfect life and then be crucified, thus sending him to hell. When he got to hell he freed all those sinners. This is how he suffered and died for their sins. I don't think the point was that he suffered more than any other.

How is his death any more important than the thousands of others who have been tortured to death?[/b]

1. He was (and is) God.
2. He came back to life and still lives: he conquered death.
3. He lived a sinless and perfect life: instead of dying for his own sins (which he didn't have) like all other humans, he died for all of our sins.

He took our punishment, but didn't go to hell forever because he had no sin.

there is one thing you must remember i jesus didn't come to earth than i would be a jew and that meens no pork thus no bacon so if nothing else he got me bacon i love bacon thus i love jesus

and not all pre-jesus people went to hell they could sacrifice animals

and every one has free will

You might say that... Jesus really saved your bacon!

Ah hah ah ah ah ah..!

Mittens: Baby penguin, look out!
<Mittens saves the penguin from a boulder coming down a mountain>
Maraka: Did you see that? Mittens saved baby penguin&#33; If Mittens saved baby penguin based on his beliefs, and Mittens&#39; beliefs aren&#39;t in his direct control, does Mittens really have free will?
<Sorry, just had to add that>

Originally Posted by JFK

there is one thing you must remember i jesus didn&#39;t come to earth than i would be a jew and that meens no pork thus no bacon so if nothing else he got me bacon i love bacon thus i love jesus [/b]

lol.

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Also, the whole (valid) &#39;Why is jesus&#39;s death more important then other people&#39;s death&#39; argument always gets the same nonsense response from theists. They have a real hard time understanding &#39;all-powerful&#39;, so it seems, because they can&#39;t even imagine not having to torture yourself/your son for something you knew would happen.

It is ridiculous to say Jesus HAD to die (a painful death), that would mean god isn&#39;t all-powerful. God shouldn&#39;t HAVE to do anything. Especially torture, death and murder, if he was loving.

Originally Posted by Neruo

It is ridiculous to say Jesus HAD to die (a painful death), that would mean god isn&#39;t all-powerful. God shouldn&#39;t HAVE to do anything. Especially torture, death and murder, if he was loving.[/b]

Exactly&#33; :bravo: God could have easily found a less painful way of saving his people. He is God after all, so why does there have to be a blood sacrifice such as his son? Since he&#39;s god, he doesn&#39;t have to have set rules to follow, so he could have found some peaceful solution to the problem. Or, God forbid, he could have just not allowed Adam and Eve access to the Tree of The Knowlede of Good and Evil (I think thats what that was called). Then there never would have been any problems and we would all be in paradise.

I love how all these stories are being passed off as fact. Lets face it, the Adam and Eve story is the biggest insult to reason in history. I find it sad that a whole lot of people believe humanity was damned because of the Tree of Knowledge incedent.

If the Adam and Eve story is fake (and it is), then there was no origional sin. If original sin was never there, then Jesus was not necessary. But it must be true. It IS in the Bible, afterall.

Perhaps Origional Sin is a representation of what our animal/sinful side does. But to say its from a dirt-spawned man and a rib-spawned woman? Please.....

Nobody has answered my question yet. Did the pre-Jesus folks have free will, or not?

God might have been able to find another way. But he WANTED to do it this way. Probably to show his love for us.

Originally Posted by Hard

Nobody has answered my question yet. Did the pre-Jesus folks have free will, or not?[/b]

Yes, they did. In the story of Adam and Eve they had free will.

Originally Posted by gameover

My understanding is that everyone before jesus went to hell for thier sins. So in order to free all the people in hell God needed to send someone perfect on earth to lead a perfect life and then be crucified, thus sending him to hell. When he got to hell he freed all those sinners. This is how he suffered and died for their sins. I don&#39;t think the point was that he suffered more than any other.[/b]

That depends on what doctrine we are dicussing
In the largest branch of Christianity, (Catholicism) good people who came before Jesus went to Limbo, I think
A place where the resided until the coming of Jesus, People like Moses went there, Well at least thats what I remember from my Catholic school. I think they just plain mae it up though, since I dont think this is even hinted at i nthe Bible.

Imran

Originally Posted by Neruo

lol.

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Also, the whole (valid) &#39;Why is jesus&#39;s death more important then other people&#39;s death&#39; argument always gets the same nonsense response from theists. They have a real hard time understanding &#39;all-powerful&#39;, so it seems, because they can&#39;t even imagine not having to torture yourself/your son for something you knew would happen.

It is ridiculous to say Jesus HAD to die (a painful death), that would mean god isn&#39;t all-powerful. God shouldn&#39;t HAVE to do anything. Especially torture, death and murder, if he was loving.[/b]

He did not have to die , he could of just walk off and said "screw these people" but he did not , he love us so much he took the pain also he was obeying his father will like he wanted too.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Exactly&#33; :bravo: God could have easily found a less painful way of saving his people. He is God after all, so why does there have to be a blood sacrifice such as his son? Since he&#39;s god, he doesn&#39;t have to have set rules to follow, so he could have found some peaceful solution to the problem. Or, God forbid, he could have just not allowed Adam and Eve access to the Tree of The Knowlede of Good and Evil (I think thats what that was called). Then there never would have been any problems and we would all be in paradise. :bigteeth:[/b]

No cause if God did not let them eat the tree fruit and get and said "No" first he would change free-will and into force-will also he would be breaking his own rules. God is the opposite when he make a rule he follow it and say God come to your house one day and your rule was no shoes or sandals are to be wore so God would take he sandals off that just who he is.

No cause Jesus said "I am the way , the truth , and the life no one come before the father but throught me" so the said right there that THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

Yes, they did. In the story of Adam and Eve they had free will.[/b]

No. Nobody has answered my question. I was not talking about Adam and Eve. I was talking about EVERYONE who died before Jesus. According to the notion that Jesus was necessary to save humanity, the people before Jesus had PREDETERMINED FATES. That, sir, is not free will. Your god has lied to you.

This is why Christianity is so confusing to me. It runs itself into circles and contradictions at almost every turn. Ex. God gave the first humans free will. It didnt matter because they all went to the same place. PLEASE explain to me how THAT is free will.

Originally Posted by Faken

No cause if God did not let them eat the tree fruit and get and said "No" first he would change free-will and into force-will also he would be breaking his own rules. God is the opposite when he make a rule he follow it and say God come to your house one day and your rule was no shoes or sandals are to be wore so God would take he sandals off that just who he is.[/b]

He wouldn&#39;t be breaking his own rules by not providing them w/ the tree. If they knew nothing about the tree then they would not have the desire to eat the apple. If God is supposedly so loving, he would have never provided the very method for our own downfall.

Besides, Adam and Eve were perfect, right? It is my understanding that God made them sinless. Now, Jesus was also sinless, so whenever Satan tempted him, he was able to resist temptation. Since Adam and Eve were also sinless, how could they not also resist the temptation?

No cause Jesus said "I am the way , the truth , and the life no one come before the father but throught me" so the said right there that THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. [/b]

I thought God was infinitely powerful? He could always make another way. He is God after all. He can make up whatever rules he wants and change them at any given time. He shouldn&#39;t have to play by his own rules b/c since he can create them, he can also abolish them. Jesus wouldn&#39;t have to be the only way if God was really infinitely powerful. God could just as easily say that every person on this planet has free access to heaven w/ no strings attached. He is God, right? He can let in anyone he wants.

My god. Is anyone even capable of understanding my question?

Originally Posted by Hard

My god. Is anyone even capable of understanding my question?[/b]

I understand your question, but just like to argue w/ other people in the thread. For the record, the answer is... THERE IS NO GOD, but there isn&#39;t free will either. We are all basically predestined to do whatever it is we do. Though, not by God, by by destiny. Our paths were set in stone when the universe began.

Originally Posted by Chaos

I understand your question, but just like to argue w/ other people in the thread. For the record, the answer is... THERE IS NO GOD, but there isn&#39;t free will either. We are all basically predestined to do whatever it is we do. Though, not by God, by by destiny. Our paths were set in stone when the universe began. [/b]

Do you think murderers and rapists deserve to be punished?

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

God might have been able to find another way. But he WANTED to do it this way. Probably to show his love for us.[/b]

Yes, my dad always beat my brother to an inch of his life too for something bad I did and he knew I did. He beat my brother and not me (as much) to show how much he loves me.

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My dad never actually beat me, but do you see the simile between my casus and your "gawd luvz us" &#39;argument&#39;?


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Edit:
Also, to what Chaos said:

In a way our &#39;fates&#39; were already &#39;set&#39; when the universe started. Everything happening to us is a cascade of events resulting from the big bang. Like pushing against the first marble that sets the rue-Goldberg machine in effect. However, just because theoretically everything could have been predicted by an impossibly complex computer doesn&#39;t mean we do not Have free-will. We at the very least have the illusion of free-will.

Said differently: We have as much free-will as possible. (okay left alone the fact our conscious is often subjected to chemical/physical caused events, instincts and such.)

As far as I have understood it, pre-Jesus time people who died did not necessarily go to hell but instead to &#39;The Bosom of Abraham&#39; (im sure this belief isn&#39;t shared by all Christians but only certain schools of thought... I&#39;m sure some nutjobs think everyone goes to hell lol)

Those who would &#39;make it&#39; to heaven (in a post-Jesus era) but who died before Jesus go to, &#39;The Bosom of Abraham&#39; which is a term with all sorts of connotations so if you look it up you may find something different than what I&#39;m explaining (as in, don&#39;t just search it on Wikipedia, it might not explain it to the full, but rather several sources)

Anyways, &#39;The Bosom&#39; (as the cool kids call it) is presumably where future heaven-sent (for lack of a better word... I&#39;m not trying to delve into the free will argument here) people went while awaiting Jesus&#39; coming. (Then presumably they enter heaven with the rest of the home team and whoever else.

(PS im not trying to answer your question but perhaps give you an important idea that may lead you to the answer) I&#39;ll post my answer to that question after)

Originally Posted by imran_p

Do you think murderers and rapists deserve to be punished?[/b]

Of course I do. Just b/c I think they were predestined to become what they are doesn&#39;t mean i don&#39;t think they deserve to be punished. If you murder or rape someone, you deserve to go to jail, and even possibly get the death penalty. Besides, in most cases murderers/rapists are also predestined to go to jail.

Originally Posted by Chaos

He wouldn&#39;t be breaking his own rules by not providing them w/ the tree. If they knew nothing about the tree then they would not have the desire to eat the apple. If God is supposedly so loving, he would have never provided the very method for our own downfall.

Besides, Adam and Eve were perfect, right? It is my understanding that God made them sinless. Now, Jesus was also sinless, so whenever Satan tempted him, he was able to resist temptation. Since Adam and Eve were also sinless, how could they not also resist the temptation?




I thought God was infinitely powerful? He could always make another way. He is God after all. He can make up whatever rules he wants and change them at any given time. He shouldn&#39;t have to play by his own rules b/c since he can create them, he can also abolish them. Jesus wouldn&#39;t have to be the only way if God was really infinitely powerful. God could just as easily say that every person on this planet has free access to heaven w/ no strings attached. He is God, right? He can let in anyone he wants. [/b]

When God said there was no other way he mean there is no other way and Jesus fight off temption because he know how to fight it and Adam and Eve could of done it too but the devil somehow pull out one of his mind tricks. Second yes God could let anyone into heaven right now but heaven would became un-perfect and aslo i think that stupid if God let anyone in by saying you may enter with nothing attach. Thrid God does not broke his own rules because even though he God his does not do it and also when God make a rule he obey his own rule he not like parents they make a rule than don&#39;t follow it God the other way around. Last you blame God so much for adding the tree , why did Adam and Eve just follow the rule ? tell me , they could of just follow the rule God place in place.

Actually, I blame you and your bad grammar, faken, for the fall of mankind.

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Also, god &#39;created&#39; Adam and Eve. He knew they would sin, if he placed the tree and the snake as he &#39;did&#39;.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Actually, I blame you and your bad grammar, faken, for the fall of mankind.

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Also, god &#39;created&#39; Adam and Eve. He knew they would sin, if he placed the tree and the snake as he &#39;did&#39;.[/b]

Yes he knows but he could of not stop them anyway cause it there choice not his so he let them decide and it does not matter if he know he has to allowed things to happen cause of others things he created. Last he let the devil deceive them because the devil had the right aslo it was his choice too if God destroy the devil that would be messing with the rights of free will the devil had.


You need to think from all views possible of the scene your only look from your view and you need to see it from all of them.

I not the reason man fall but i not saying i did not do the samething as them by sinning i am no differnt.

I can&#39;t wait when everyone bow down before God (Christians , Sinners(Atheists) Devil) and say he is lord and you can&#39;t say he not and that will make my day.

Originally posted by Faken
(Christians , Sinners(Atheists) Devil)

I hope you&#39;re not saying Christians are perfect and better than atheists...