Pointless...

I find it very pointless to argue about Christianity with an atheist if they refuse to at least think of God in the same way we do. If you can't fathom the idea of someone being all-powerful all knowing, perfect, as a man who has absolutely everything under control and everything has a plan for it, then... don't bother arguing, it just does not make sense. I was at one point a non-believer, and I can see your point of view because I had that point of view. At the same time it is getting harder for me to see it in that way, because it just seems so wrong.

So yeah for the most part it's pretty pointless to argue when nothing is right and you think that automatically it is wrong. Unless some topic becomes part of God's plan and gets someone to start thinking...

You know, the point you're trying to make is quite moot. An atheist will feel the same way arguing with a hardcore christian, in that it's like bashing your head against a brick wall.

The truth is, people don't get into serious religious debates over the existence of god or any other such thing. They get into debates, but not as heated as they can be. If it were as simple as "you believe and I don't", we would simply accept that and move on with our lives. No, the reason the arguments begin is that one side's always trying to push their views on the other. When it comes to religious views, this "pushing of views" is often disguised as "trying to save one another"... But the REAL heated debates come into play when morals come into the picture. I think gays should do whatever they want. You think gays are the devil. THAT is what starts the heated debate. Since we're now talking about things that will actually affect our lives, it most certainly is not "pointless" anymore.

I find alot of christians annoying to deal with (i said alot, not all because i know eveyrone is different). I see god knows how many who can't debate at all, and always say you're going to burn in hell forever. I'm not religious at all and find it pointless...too much BS is wrong with the world because of religion. What's wrong with respecting others choices? you can't and then it turn into an all out war online and people through their shit at the non believers with stuff they don't know is true. Makes me think, what makes religion true? because some people thousands of years ago decided to believe in something to pass the time?

Most i see are either christian or athiest.

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Originally Posted by homer2020

I find it very pointless to argue about Christianity with an atheist if they refuse to at least think of God in the same way we do. If you can't fathom the idea of someone being all-powerful all knowing, perfect, as a man who has absolutely everything under control and everything has a plan for it, then... don't bother arguing, it just does not make sense.

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You're right - there would be no point whatsoever arguing with different definitions of god. But I don't get your point. Most atheists can fathom the concepts you're talking about - in fact most arguments against the xian god I've seen presuppose some (usually all) of these characteristics. Just because people don't accept your god as truth doesn't mean they don't understand it conceptually.

In fact, homer, I'd like to add one thing:

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as a man who has absolutely everything under control and everything has a plan for it

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Too many religious people think of god in terms of something they can identify with, as you've demonstrated. That's why many of you don't make any sense when acting like you understand what you're preaching. You're trying to explain something you know nothing about in terms of what you do know. That's why there are people who actually believe there is a "man", living in the "sky", who loves you, but will send you to "hell" (a firey place, located below the earth's crust - a concept that made lots of sense back when people thought the world was flat, and Jerusalem was at the center of it) if you don't obey the 10 rules, 7 of which *might* have made sense 5000 years ago (the first 3 are just there to scare people and make them more susceptible to the others).

I know it took me a while to post back, but I had to go to sleep and work today. Sorry I really shouldn't have put "man" in that sentence, I'm not the most reliable proof reader, as I assume I said everything the way I wanted it to came out. Most atheists can't see God in the same all-powerful definition, for example the theory of thermodynamics, if it were true why couldn't the creator or the entire universe simply ignore this, he could have created it and made it seem plausible (kind of hard to explain, but I think you should see my point) The point I was also trying to make is that for most Christians it should be easy to see things on the other side, because at one point we were. I also certainly do not believe "...gays are the devil." I simply don't believe they should be married in the house of God. (I know I'm just rambling, I'm just going as I remember) I also try not to push my view on anyone, I know that it generally won't get you anywhere, the best thing to do is to simply state your opinion, and then see where it goes from there. I also don't see any of the commandments as "scary" and I don't know which version you read but (for just ONE example) I'm pretty sure not killing people still makes sense now... (but you'd have to have read the Bible to know that or you know come out of the cave you must live in :P) I think I had more to say but in the middle of this post I had to leave for a while, I remember thinking about something but I can't quite remember...

Most arguments between Christians and Atheists are pointless, but not quite for the reasons you state. Its for the most part is that both sides will argue to the death of them their point of view, and get so defensive about it that any proof for either side thrown in their face is ignored and their opinions won't change.

However, I am an ex-christian. I know the Bible by heart, and had a lot of faith in God until I slowly became close to convinced there is no God. I say close, because even though I'm an Atheist, no one can be entirely unsure of a said God's existence. He can't be proven or disproven, no matter how hard both sides try. They can still provide evidence for their claim, but the only way to answer the question, is to die. I also say slowly, because its not like I was in an argument and said "Hey, your right! There is no God!" No, its not that simple. Its not an overnight thing, anyone who 'converts' like that is just tricking themselves.

However, just because your being argued against doesn't mean others can't see your point of view. Often times they can, its just both sides end up getting so defensive they can't see past that. Both Atheists and Christians alike.

Personally I don't believe in an "ex-Christian" the way I see it, is: If you aren't with us now, you were never with us.

Me, I don't think there's a God, I know there's a God. I don't need the evidence that lots of people are trying to find, the only evidence I need is to open my eyes and look around. I did not grow up as a Christian, if you think my parents raised me as a Christian, in fact until my dad was a acid/pot/coke dealer until I was 5 or 6 ears old.

I can see what you mean, ExoByte by " However, just because your being argued against doesn't mean others can't see your point of view. Often times they can, its just both sides end up getting so defensive they can't see past that." I just tend not to do that, so I don't see it that way very often. It's just the way that people say things makes it seem like they aren't even trying, or even reading your post, just assuming it's wrong before they even take a look.

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Originally Posted by homer2020

Personally I don't believe in an "ex-Christian" the way I see it, is: If you aren't with us now, you were never with us.

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Thats a pretty ignorant view of it. I wasn't raised Christian either. I 'found God' myself, based on experience and what I had read and my beliefs formed through that. I had a very strong belief in God, and I often got frustrated with those who didn't believe. I had a lot of belief in God, and I would share my beliefs and support them as much as I could. Its just, it changed. Things change. Saying that if your not there now you were never there is very ignorant, and its that kind of logic which often angers non-christians. I didn't think that way, even when I did believe in a said God. Its like saying, "If your not in my room at this minute, you were never here in the past"

Sorry if you think it's ignorant, that's just what I've understood through scripture. It just sounds like you were just trying it out, and tricking yourself into believing it, I did that for a while too...

"If your not in my room at this minute, you were never here in the past" and what I said are two entirely different things. I just believe strongly that you can't become "un-saved" which is stated in the Bible.

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Originally Posted by homer2020

Sorry if you think it's ignorant, that's just what I've understood through scripture. It just sounds like you were just trying it out, and tricking yourself into believing it, I did that for a while too...

"If your not in my room at this minute, you were never here in the past" and what I said are two entirely different things. I just believe strongly that you can't become "un-saved" which is stated in the Bible.

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I was hardly tricking myself. In fact, right now I want to believe. But I don't. I wish I could believe, I had a lot of comfort believing in God. If I tried to believe, then I'd be tricking myself. But no, I didn't try. I just did. It was the way it was and I believed with all my heart.

Please show me that verse. I can't recall it stating that.

It doesn't it say it exactly like "you cannot become unsaved" it's more of an implied thing, reading Romans, is what taught me, I would have to quote Romans in its entirety so that the verses would make sense. I can try to pinpoint a specific verse, but I will have to go and search for it myself to be very sure.

OK I've got the perfect verse John 10: 25-30. (I'll just use the main part) "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand" (verse 28) I know it's not from Romans, I just like this verse, can't believe I forgot it.

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Originally Posted by ExoByte

Most arguments between Christians and Atheists are pointless, but not quite for the reasons you state. Its for the most part is that both sides will argue to the death of them their point of view, and get so defensive about it that any proof for either side thrown in their face is ignored and their opinions won't change.

However, I am an ex-christian. I know the Bible by heart, and had a lot of faith in God until I slowly became close to convinced there is no God. I say close, because even though I'm an Atheist, no one can be entirely unsure of a said God's existence. He can't be proven or disproven, no matter how hard both sides try. They can still provide evidence for their claim, but the only way to answer the question, is to die. I also say slowly, because its not like I was in an argument and said "Hey, your right! There is no God!" No, its not that simple. Its not an overnight thing, anyone who 'converts' like that is just tricking themselves.

However, just because your being argued against doesn't mean others can't see your point of view. Often times they can, its just both sides end up getting so defensive they can't see past that. Both Atheists and Christians alike.

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Not just die, but die for 8 minutes. That's long enough for the brain to shut down. When you die what you may see can be a neuron/eye illusion, then when 8 minutes are up the brain is shut down and THEN we will see what's really true, or what's not true. I'm not sure but i don't think there is proof of people seeing stuff after 8 minutes. I think it was before you die you see stuff, then you come back and tell others your expierence. If i'm wrong, please correct me.

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Originally Posted by homer2020

Most atheists can't see God in the same all-powerful definition, for example the theory of thermodynamics, if it were true why couldn't the creator or the entire universe simply ignore this, he could have created it and made it seem plausible (kind of hard to explain, but I think you should see my point)

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That's right. This creator could have done that. This creator could also have put dinosaur bones into the ground to make it look like the earth was created billions of years ago, when in fact it was actually 7000 years ago or whatever the current number is. But by that logic, the world could just as well have been created 5 minutes ago, including all your memories. We don't know which of those is truth, because that would mean speculating on "metadata". That would be like life forms in a 2D world trying to understand the 3D world. They can't. They can only believe that there is something out there they don't see.

That's why being agnostic is the only choice for me. I've come to terms with the fact that the unknowable is called "unknowable" for a reason. It's not... knowable. That's why we have faith. If we knew things to be a certain way, we wouldn't need faith, would we? Which is why I am taken aback by certain things you've said, such as:

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for most Christians it should be easy to see things on the other side, because at one point we were.

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Now, to answer the commandments question (even though it's kind of off-topic):

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I also don't see any of the commandments as "scary" and I don't know which version you read but (for just ONE example) I'm pretty sure not killing people still makes sense now...

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I could do that, but I don't need to. My buddy George Carlin has done a much more eloquent job of it than I ever could:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CitfTtMIx8

cheers

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Not just die, but die for 8 minutes. That's long enough for the brain to shut down. When you die what you may see can be a neuron/eye illusion, then when 8 minutes are up the brain is shut down and THEN we will see what's really true, or what's not true. I'm not sure but i don't think there is proof of people seeing stuff after 8 minutes. I think it was before you die you see stuff, then you come back and tell others your expierence. If i'm wrong, please correct me.

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Thats true. Caught on a technicality, though its 6 minutes actually. The "white light" is merely chemical reactions, and many of the "near death experiences" are because of the 6 minutes during which the brain is shutting down.

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Originally Posted by homer2020

OK I've got the perfect verse John 10: 25-30. (I'll just use the main part) "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand" (verse 28) I know it's not from Romans, I just like this verse, can't believe I forgot it.

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But thats more like a reassurance that what God gives, no-one *else* can take away from you. You're saying something else; that once you have truly accepted God, *you* could never change your mind and reject Him.
(and by extension that if you lose faith you never *truly* believed in the first place).

Isn't that a denial of Free Will anyway? I thought most people who believed in God, and who believe that you have to accept Him (or act in keeping with his commandments) to gain eternal life in Heaven, believed in free will. It seems a bit pointless judging people otherwise :-). And what could be more of an expression of free will than to reject God, despite having previously accepted Him?

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Originally Posted by ExoByte

Thats true. Caught on a technicality, though its 6 minutes actually. The "white light" is merely chemical reactions, and many of the "near death experiences" are because of the 6 minutes during which the brain is shutting down.

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The feeling of being safe and seeing your body and not caring they say is the neurons, too. While the white light, and tunnel is supposed to be the retinas or something with the eyes. That's if you believe that stuff to be the real factor, it could be, or it could be alittle but mainly what you see is real. Have they even tested it with a camera, or just guess work because that happens when you die and they see it on the machine screens. For all we know this could be part of the whole thing that's supposed to happen.

This George guy still didn't really make the commandments scary, I still don't understand the scariness of it. I don't know what to say about the whole near death experience things, I actually think it's true about the neurons and stuff. I mean God would know if that person was going to die, he would take them when it's their time to really die. I'm going to post the entire John 10 : 25-30, because if you read the whole thing you can see that it's talking about the person and not just the things he gives us. It is also from a different version of the Bible, either way it says the same thing.


25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

I don't believe it's against free will at all, I just don't think that after you've accepted Jesus, that you can ever go back to not believing him, it just would not be plausible, unless you've had doubts, in which case wouldn't really make you Christian, as you haven't truly accepted him.

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Originally Posted by homer2020

If you can't fathom the idea of someone being all-powerful all knowing, perfect, as a man who has absolutely everything under control and everything has a plan for it, then... don't bother arguing

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Oh, I can fathom it. I just think it's rubbish.

What a complete nonsense. Only cultists and such think one can only imagen something if they have 'experienced' it. That is completely illogical. I can imagen quite a lot. If I wanted, I could imagen I was an absolutely powerful god.

Where religious people differ, is not that they can suddenly grasp the concept of a god, but that they can buy into it. Anyone with some brain, skepticism and a desire for truth -instead of simply placing everything in the hands of something you don't even try to understand-, can't believe such nonsense.