In some religions I get many benefits. This might include the following:
Love
Morals
Reason (to live)
Hope
Eternal Life
Enlightenment
Guidance
The list is by no means exhaustive.
My question is simple: what does atheism offer?
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In some religions I get many benefits. This might include the following:
Love
Morals
Reason (to live)
Hope
Eternal Life
Enlightenment
Guidance
The list is by no means exhaustive.
My question is simple: what does atheism offer?
You speak of athesim as a certain religion, with rules and books etc. It's more a way of life, that lets you live it your own way, allowing you to believe what you want to believe, without specific guidance. So in my opinion atheism offers everything on the list + anything else you'd like.
I also think it's sad that people need religion to have morals.
^Agreed. You don't need God in your life in order to live. Christians may be comforted by the thought that he is there, but thats only because they believe that he is actually there. But if you're an athiest, you're not really missing anything, b/c you pretty much know that there's nothing out there. As for eternal life, I don't know where I'll go when I die. I'll probably just cease to exist. In all reality, Christians don't really know where they are going to go either. They just have a theory, just like we do. Thats really all anyone has.
Atheism doesn't opffer anything, thats the thing, its an absense of believe. I find it insulting when people say that surely Atheists have no reason to live as they have no greater destiny and that they somehow lack morals( i know you didnt say this). We know what morals are, every human has them, we just except that we are just motal creatures, there is no great God and we don't rely on him as a crutch for everything.
Freedom from gods oppression..
I am a believe, a Catholic, but I would say that this is a foolish question (sorry!). The question should not be what do I have to gain from X or Y, but the question should be Which is true!
I am a Christian because I believe it to be true! The nicest thing would be to believe that I am God, but I dont, because it is not true!
With that said, I do think that there is some value in Pascal's Wager in the fact that it leads to a desire to search out the truth (from fear of eternal damnation!)
This, I think, is a standard atheist arguement. When looking only at the now, it would be much easier to not have to concern ourselves with personal moral goodness. We would not have to worry about others. We would not have to ask what is right and wrong. We would just not care.Quote:
Freedom from gods oppression..
But, obviously, Christians will argue agaisnt this by saying that 1- we achieve eternal happiness and 2- "Freedom from Gods oppression" leads to boredom and despair, not true happiness.
Exactly, Christians think that as Atheists we are lonely and will not understand true happiness. Yet Atheist believe they don;t need God for this happiness.
The arguement will go on forever until, from an Atheist viewpoint, our race grows out of its infancy. From a Christian viewpoint, until all unbelievers see the light and understand that God is truly amazing and everyone is happy and content under God.
So debates just let us know about each others reasonings, even if we dont understand them. It may sway agnostics, which is what we both aim for.
Its nothing to do with not caring for people, or about moral goodness. You think the majority of athiests arn't good people? You think people dont understand the difference between right and wrong without religion? Do you think religion helped the child abusing priests that appear on the news quite frequently treat people well? What about some of the acts commited under the banner of islam, beheadings and stoning to death?Quote:
This, I think, is a standard atheist arguement. When looking only at the now, it would be much easier to not have to concern ourselves with personal moral goodness. We would not have to worry about others. We would not have to ask what is right and wrong. We would just not care.
Please dont look at athiests as uncaring, unmotivated, bored creatures. Im far from bored or unhappy. Religion causes more deaths, war and hatred in this world than enough, give the athiests a break.
I think everybody has a sense of God... Just some people prefer to ignore it... It's far more convinient :)
Without a God, you have nobody judging your actions, you have nobody that you really have to obey to... The thing is, the God that makes you obey and punishes you is a creation of Man... And Atheists are just missing the good parts of having faith... I don't have a need for God's existance... I just feel guided on my way by a powerful source, a source that inspires everyone and that created everything. Something of which I'm a part of. And when you block yourself from seeing/feeling that I understand that it's hard to believe in God. I know this because not so long ago I considered myself an atheist and now I feel that I have a relationship with God and it's a powerful thing that I feel sorry for having denied to myself earlier. Hope this might get some of you to at least consider the possibility.
Fixed (relative to MY opinion, do not take offence)
"Love
Morals
Reason (to live)
Hope"
You do NOT need a religion for these things.
My question is simple: what does atheism offer?
Truth
Freedom
Knowledge
Lack of Anxiety (no sins to worry about)
And, similar to your religion,
Enlightenment
Guidance
Love
Morals
I used to be a Christian, so I will tell you exactly what benefits I have gained since becoming an atheist.
1. loss of belief in the possibility of my existence turning into a demonic, eternal torture horror story
2. increased philosophical knowledge and intuition and creativity (because I really started thinking once life and the universe became so mysterious after I no longer had short, intimidating answers jammed in my head)
3. a major fascination with psychology (because religion became so interesting once I no longer had one)
4. the tendency to question authority and to ask domineering people who they think they are (My major leader turned out not to exist, so I became skeptical of all leaders and people trying to be leaders.)
5. increased appreciation for life (It is so incredibly interesting that it grew here like mold on a piece of bread.)
Also, while it's not something atheism/agnostism 'offer', it's a way of life that shows that we've come to terms with the unknowable without having to fill the gap with something absurd. We're ok with the unknowable being there, and can sleep at night without being afraid to die, even if we don't convince ourselves that there's eternal life right after we're done here.
I am not insinuating anything.
Truth – you certainly are not talking about scientific truth, so you must be talking about spiritual truth (or lack there of). This is clearly a question of belief, and all religious orientations have that. Even atheism (in my point of view), as they believe God does not exist.
Freedom – Freedom from what exactly? God’s oppression, as some indicated? I do not really feel oppressed myself. I guess that is a matter of opinion.
Knowledge – Like truth, all religions offer their own set of knowledge.
Lack of Anxiety (no sins to worry about) – I will talk about this a bit later.
Enlightenment – I am speaking of spiritual enlightenment (like for Buddhists). How exactly does atheism offer this?
Guidance – Again, I am referring to the spiritual side of it. However, if you do not need it, that is fine.
Love – This could only be seen in relationships. Unfortunately, relationships are not always solid. They come and go, often conditional and able to dissolve. All one has that is generally stable is the family, but even that is not always well-established for some.
Morals – I am curious, what exactly defines morals for atheists. Some philosophers say that morals are relative. I have even argued against someone trying not to use religion as an argument. It is very hard to clearly define what is right and wrong. I might say he deviates from the norm, but that does not necessarily mean it is wrong.
Concerning lack of anxiety of sins, I can’t imagine why one would want this unless they wish not to have boundaries on what is right and wrong. If that is the case, then you are defying established morals (which aren’t clearly defined in the first place but at least have direction with certain religions).
Also, whether or not one is right or wrong, if they get the things I named and more, that is their reality. They believe it. For example, even if eternal life does not exist, they can feel comforted that it does. Thus, all those things shape the here-and-now. It especially helps that it cannot be proven otherwise.
As far as I can tell, anything one gets from atheism, another can get all of that and more from a religion. I just don’t see the point in atheism myself.
There is no point in atheism, as I don't see any point in religion. I can just turn around your statement to express my point of view. Anyone one gets from religion, another can get all of that and more from being an atheist, being free of constraints of religion and possible blind faith. I also don't see a reason for your statement that an atheist can't be a buddhist and experience enlightenment.
There is no point in atheism... So what. What am I going to do, believe in something to make me feel better? Eaven if I could, I wouldn't be on the biblical gods side.
By the way, what's the point in religion? The points you made I mostly take for granted, without religion. I'd rather be some sort of a seaker of truth, then to take something written in an old book, that might not eaven be true, and somehow be satisfied with it. It's not doable without brainwashing, or so I'd like to believe for myself.
By God's opression, I believe people mean restraints like sex before marriage, no masturbation and so on.
I'm an atheist myself. I don't believe in anything, but science. However, that doesn't mean I woreship, love and follow science. I just think, that science is the actual thing in this universe and is the answer to everything, since science pretty much covers everything in the known universe.
About morals: atheists do have morals. Important morals. An atheist has morals like "Don't take other people's lifes" and "Don't steal", but we don't have morals regarding sex, masturbation, living-style and all that other stuff. Atleast I don't have. Ofcourse, rape is wrong, but having a one-night-stand is not.
Now, goodnight.
I believe you missed the point.
Atheists, as the post above me clearly explains, dont need to worry about right and wrong in the same sense that a Christian does. An atheist can claim that they think something as right and wrong, but Christians can be doing something that they believe is wrong and will feel guilt for it.
Guilt is a human emotion, it isnt tied to any religion. In fact, an atheist can feel just as guilty as a christian, a christian can just ask jesus for forgiveness and ta-da, its all better.
Guilt is an autonomic nervous system response, not a result of religious analysis. If you want some examples of where religion, even to the point of absolute fanaticism, does not create guilt, study Islamofascism. How guilty does Bin Laden ever look in his videos? Any religious person who does feel guilt would have the same autonomic set up without the religion. It is like the ability to feel hungry, except not as common. The Bible might encourage the eating of animals, but that does not mean Christians think about that teaching and feel hungry as a result of it.
@mynameismichael
The posts above me kinda sum up what would be my response about guilt so i wont go into that.
The other thing that stands out to me as far as your post is concerned is that you seem to base right and wrong on fear of hell/punishment etc.Quote:
An atheist can claim that they think something as right and wrong, but Christians can be doing something that they believe is wrong and will feel guilt for it.
If god said it was okay to kill for instance, going by your post you would have no guilty feeling after doing it? Thats the thing about athiesm, athiests can judge a situation fairly and logically and dont need the threat of punishment to be nice to people.
I think from what i have read in your post that you dont really understand athiesm or athiests.