• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 25 of 101
    1. #1
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,299
      Likes
      23

      Creationists, i'm confused.

      Creationists, and those who believe that since everything is so complex, God must have created it, I think its called "intelligent design" right?

      I am confused...if the fact that the universe is so complex it must have had a designer is true, then what of the designer and its own complexity?

      For you to submit to me that the universe must have a creator, I must submit to you that such a complex creator must in itself have a creator by the same logic.

      I would like someone to clarify this issue for me.

      Debate welcome, I will flame you if you start insulting people though (aside from insulting those who are insulting others)

    2. #2
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      377
      Likes
      0
      Why do you think he has to be so complex?...

    3. #3
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,299
      Likes
      23
      Quote Originally Posted by Jeremysr View Post
      Why do you think he has to be so complex?...
      Lol really?

      Because he is supposed to be God, a perfect being beyond anything fathomable by mankind...I would assume something that is so beyond comprehension due to its complexity would have be considered complex.

    4. #4
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      377
      Likes
      0
      I don't think he's beyond comprehension because he's so complex, but because he's outside the whole physical Universe and outside of time. We can't really imagine things outside of space and time.

    5. #5
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,299
      Likes
      23
      So somethig not complex...was able to create rules and laws that are complex? The fact that he is said to be capable of doing an inumerable amount of things (like for example keep track of all human kinds every activity such that he is able to see their sins) which require a massive amount of complex thought does not mean that he is complex?

    6. #6
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      377
      Likes
      0
      It would take a lot of complex thought for us to do that, but God is different and he "thinks" differently than us. I don't even know how you could "think" outside of time.

    7. #7
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,299
      Likes
      23
      I'm afraid that just because he "thinks differently" doesn't mean he wouldn't have to be pretty complex to create the rules and laws that govern the universe. I'm sorry but your response is not a very good case. you are essentially saying, God is not complex, because he thinks different then people.
      That I am afraid makes no sense, even if he doesn't think like a human, the laws themselves are complex, therefore the thought behind them has to be complex as well.

      Either way this isn't exactly what i'm looking for, if it is required for God to exist, simply because there is a design, then God himself also has a design that he follows, which must have been designed. That is the logic i'm asking for someone to debate.

      If in order for something to exist, it must have been created, then God must either not exist, or he must have been created.
      Last edited by Sandform; 08-13-2007 at 02:11 AM.

    8. #8
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by Sandform View Post

      I am confused...if the fact that the universe is so complex it must have had a designer is true, then what of the designer and its own complexity?
      That is exactly the issue that influenced me stop believing in God.

      Quote Originally Posted by Jeremysr View Post
      It would take a lot of complex thought for us to do that, but God is different and he "thinks" differently than us. I don't even know how you could "think" outside of time.
      A mind that can conceptualize the entire universe at once and create the complex system of scientific laws is of course a complex mind. It takes a complex mind to conceptualize the full spectrum of the specifics of anything complex, especially the universe. But even if not, wouldn't something so great that it could create a universe be something that would need a creator, according to the intelligent design argument? How could something with any level of complexity just be an accident, according to the argument?
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 08-13-2007 at 02:13 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    9. #9
      Saddle Up Half/Dreaming's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Fiddler's Green
      Posts
      909
      Likes
      4
      I would like to raise the question why the universe is so infinitely big. Most Christians believe there are no other lifeforms out there.

      There are as many stars as grains of sand on all the beaches of Earth. Why the excess?
      Still can't WILD........

    10. #10
      Banned
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      The Weak and the Wounded
      Posts
      4,925
      Likes
      485
      I dont believe in god,

      but i think you are all basing these assumptions on what you have experienced within the universe, which, in fairness is minutely small.

      If say there was a god, who existed outside and inside the universe at once and is beyond time-I think that it by no means would have to conform to the rules of our universe ie. something must be complex to build something complex.

      that only applies in our experience in our universe, If there is a god it is most likely so far above anything our minds can comprehend we are being very arrogant and ignorant thinking it has to conform to our rules.

    11. #11
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by Car˘usoul View Post
      I dont believe in god,

      but i think you are all basing these assumptions on what you have experienced within the universe, which, in fairness is minutely small.

      If say there was a god, who existed outside and inside the universe at once and is beyond time-I think that it by no means would have to conform to the rules of our universe ie. something must be complex to build something complex.

      that only applies in our experience in our universe, If there is a god it is most likely so far above anything our minds can comprehend we are being very arrogant and ignorant thinking it has to conform to our rules.
      ".. you are ALL..."? Some of us are just taking Christian points and showing how they defeat themselves. We are not saying we agree that something complex must have a creator. We are showing the limitations of that argument.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    12. #12
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,299
      Likes
      23
      Quote Originally Posted by Car˘usoul View Post
      I dont believe in god,

      but i think you are all basing these assumptions on what you have experienced within the universe, which, in fairness is minutely small.

      If say there was a god, who existed outside and inside the universe at once and is beyond time-I think that it by no means would have to conform to the rules of our universe ie. something must be complex to build something complex.

      that only applies in our experience in our universe, If there is a god it is most likely so far above anything our minds can comprehend we are being very arrogant and ignorant thinking it has to conform to our rules.
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      ".. you are ALL..."? Some of us are just taking Christian points and showing how they defeat themselves. We are not saying we agree that something complex must have a creator. We are showing the limitations of that argument.
      Exactly, Universal gets it, infact the whole point of this is that something advanced "can" occur without a creator.

    13. #13
      Banned
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      The Weak and the Wounded
      Posts
      4,925
      Likes
      485
      My bad.

    14. #14
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3082
      Infinite complexity can come from, by comparison, infinite simplicity.

      Example: Mandelbrot set.

      Not that I'm a raving creationist or anything.

    15. #15
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Infinite complexity can come from, by comparison, infinite simplicity.

      Example: Mandelbrot set.

      Not that I'm a raving creationist or anything.
      I don't think any creationist believes God is infinitely simple. Jeremysr is the first one I have ever come across who claims that God is simple at all. The major point is that any level of complexity, or even any level of existence, is said by the intelligent design philosophy to have to have a creator. Ray Comfort uses a coke can as an example. Intelligent design basically says, "You can't get something from nothing." So that leads to the big question... Who created God?

      The answer to that question is almost always, "He has always been. He is beyond our universe and time and doesn't need a creator." As soon as they use that argument, they have said that the intelligent design principle is not universal. It has at least one exception. The discussion always leads me to asking why something that is beyond the universe and time and is timeless and has no beginning has to be a god. Why can't it just be laws of science that are not conscious and do not have human style emotions and desires? The vast majority of creationists call off the conversation at that point or before it, but one person answered the question for me. That person was Jeremysr, and he said it has to be God because one time he prayed for some lemonade when he was mowing a yard and his mother brought him some.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    16. #16
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3082
      Yeah, I completely I agree. I was just refuting the assertion that something complex can only come from something as or more complex, 'cos it aint so.

    17. #17
      Look away wendylove's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Secret forum
      Posts
      1,064
      Likes
      1
      Infinite complexity can come from, by comparison, infinite simplicity.

      Example: Mandelbrot set
      This is wrong.

      Firstly the equation can be said to be simple, however it not basic highschool mathematics. Secondly the picture of a mandelbrot set and the equation our the same thing, it not like the pictures comes from the equation as that would be like saying I come from myself. Their the same thing like a equation can describe a line and a line can describe a equation. The equation could be describe as simple however it not because it involves complex numbers and infinity, we can only see the mandelbrot set to a certain degree.

      Now is complex number simple, or summing infinty. NO!

      You could say it has beauty, however simplicity I think not. Also, being able to express a equation with a few symbols doesn't make it simple.

    18. #18
      Lover/Fighter SilverZero's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Right here.
      Posts
      290
      Likes
      1
      The very fact that the universe is so complex points to an intelligent Designer. But to say that it's logical that the Designer must have a designer, is a fallacy. God is the starting point, not just the next level up.

      To put it another (and more widely known) way: Everything that has a beginning has a cause. The universe has a beginning, so something caused the universe to come into existence. But God has no beginning, and thus no cause is necessary for His existence. That's why He calls Himself "I Am."

      So, just because you contest that it's logical that a complex God must have a more complex creator before Him, doesn't make it so. It's flawed logic. It replaces the theistic definition of God with a simplified concept of your own design.
      LD Counter (as of 07.25.07) = 5 (2 WILDs)
      Short-term goal: Recall three full dreams a night for a full week.
      Long-term goal: Have three LDs per week for one month.
      Longer-term goal: Have one six-hour LD every night! (Shooting too high? We'll see.)
      Waking life goal: Round up some NPSG equipment to study my own sleep patterns.

    19. #19
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,299
      Likes
      23
      Quote Originally Posted by SilverZero View Post
      The very fact that the universe is so complex points to an intelligent Designer. But to say that it's logical that the Designer must have a designer, is a fallacy. God is the starting point, not just the next level up.

      To put it another (and more widely known) way: Everything that has a beginning has a cause. The universe has a beginning, so something caused the universe to come into existence. But God has no beginning, and thus no cause is necessary for His existence. That's why He calls Himself "I Am."

      So, just because you contest that it's logical that a complex God must have a more complex creator before Him, doesn't make it so. It's flawed logic. It replaces the theistic definition of God with a simplified concept of your own design.
      Well the only response to that that I can make is the one that i've already heard. If God can be infinite why can't the universe be? Why does the universe need a "beggining" if God doesn't?

      Any, we aren't saying that a God would need a creator, the "intelligent design" followers are. By their OWN logic, if something serves a purpose, or is complex, then SOMETHING must have created it. The arguement invalidates itself. I am not saying a God needs a creator, I'm saying if you use the intelligent design theory, then God needs a creator. Since I don't believe in God...I can't be saying God "needs" a creator. I can only say that by your own logic he does, if you would like to abandon your own logic be my guest (those who believe in intelligent design) that is not my problem.

      Another question...What incentive does a christian have for bothering to try to convert an Atheist? Appearantly NO MATTER WHAT we are going to hell. Even if we accept God, and ask for forgiveness for our transgressions, we will still be cast into Hell...Btw, lol I guess Kirk Cameran is going to hell no matter what he does too...Hahaha.
      Last edited by Sandform; 08-14-2007 at 03:31 AM.

    20. #20
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      377
      Likes
      0
      That person was Jeremysr, and he said it has to be God because one time he prayed for some lemonade when he was mowing a yard and his mother brought him some.
      That's hardly really my main reason for believing in God, but I guess it must have been the only thing I said that was actual evidence to you?

    21. #21
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      The Eternal Paradox
      Posts
      12,853
      Likes
      1031
      Quote Originally Posted by SilverZero View Post
      The very fact that the universe is so complex points to an intelligent Designer. But to say that it's logical that the Designer must have a designer, is a fallacy. God is the starting point, not just the next level up.

      To put it another (and more widely known) way: Everything that has a beginning has a cause. The universe has a beginning, so something caused the universe to come into existence. But God has no beginning, and thus no cause is necessary for His existence. That's why He calls Himself "I Am."

      So, just because you contest that it's logical that a complex God must have a more complex creator before Him, doesn't make it so. It's flawed logic. It replaces the theistic definition of God with a simplified concept of your own design.
      You apparently didn't read what I said about that. See below for a summary.

      Quote Originally Posted by Jeremysr View Post
      That's hardly really my main reason for believing in God, but I guess it must have been the only thing I said that was actual evidence to you?
      You are the only person I have ever in my life gotten this far in the argument. It always hits a deadend, as it just did with Silverzero. He stopped a step short of the point I reached in the discussion. So please do your absolute best this time.

      To summarize: The intelligent design argument makes an exception with God, and I don't see why it can't make the same exception with a thoughtless scientific principle. This partiular universe reportedly does have a beginning, but that does not mean that existence itself does. I agree that something transcendent to the time and matter of our universe exists. What I am asking is why you conclude that it automatically must be a god. Why does it have to be something with consciousness that involves emotions, desires, and hangups? Why do you conclude that it could not possibly be a scientific principle or set of principles that do not involve a thinking and feeling mind? I don't get that. Please explain it to me.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    22. #22
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3082
      But God has no beginning, and thus no cause is necessary for His existence.
      This is where your whole argument falls to pieces. Looks like a fallacy of assertion to me.

      The question you pose in your argument is, 'what needs no cause'. Your answer is God. You define God as being an entity which needs no cause. Hence your answer to the question, 'what needs no cause', is, 'an entity that needs no cause'.

      Wow, I'd never have known.

      But besides, why cannot a scientific event also have no cause, just as UM said? Why does a causeless event require conciousness? Please explain, because it makes absolutely no sense at all at the moment.
      Last edited by Xei; 08-14-2007 at 11:57 AM.

    23. #23
      - Neruo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Gender
      Location
      The Netherlands
      Posts
      4,438
      Likes
      5
      Creationists don't Want to accept that 'the laws of the universe' need as much a start or a creator as a god. Actually, a lot of people, including Einstein, used 'god' as a metaphor for 'laws of the universe'.
      ôWhat a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'ö -Hume

    24. #24
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3082
      Yeah, true. Einstein saw that the universe is beautiful enough as it is without a conscious creator, which he saw as being completely pointless. It answers no questions at all, but rather begs the initial one.

    25. #25
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,299
      Likes
      23
      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Yeah, true. Einstein saw that the universe is beautiful enough as it is without a conscious creator, which he saw as being completely pointless. It answers no questions at all, but rather begs the initial one.
      Neat I didn't know that one =).

    Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •