Thread: So why should a Christian be virtuous? (confused...)

The bolded sentence is essentially known as the doctrine of Antinomianism:
"The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace".
Although Jesus was antinomianist to an extent, it was Paul who really put this doctrine on the map.
Protestants tend to be antinomianists and catholics do not, I think

It seems to apply to old testament law (mosaic law).

I don't think that obeying the law is a bad thing, but the following of the law, alone is not enough to justify salvation.

I still believe Christians still follow the guidelines Jesus gave, nonetheless, as perhaps this demonstrates faith from the bolded definition. This seems to counter, your confusion about Christians breaking the law.

Originally Posted by psychology student

I still believe Christians still follow the guidelines Jesus gave, nonetheless, as perhaps this demonstrates faith from the bolded definition.

This is part of your "Jesus-got-rid-of-needing-to-follow-the-OT theory"... amirite?


Do Not Ignore the Old Testament - EvilBible.com

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

haven't I made a reply to this theory in the past.

No, you dodged the question, as you do with any question you don't have an answer to.

I'm not trying to be hostile, but you really don't seem to know much about your religion, and you are unable to back anything up.

Hmmm well you said most Christians probably try and behave like Jesus, as it is a way to show faith to him. Surely this is not always the case and again peoples opinions on how Jesus would behave are different. someone may go out with a gun and kill 10 homosexuals and 5 abortion doctors. They may say that God and Jesus both said life is sacred, so killing abortion doctors saves unborn children and God said that homosexuality is wrong and Jesus said the laws have not changed.

Many people would not call behaving like someone having faith in them. Going to Church, praying to Jesus, genuinely loving God and Jesus. Is faith. But that person may also be rather horrible outside of that, maybe he beats his child because he is gay for example. Maybe he is a racist as he believes people from other countries and religions and alien and deserve to be killed if they will not convert. sty depends how that person takes the teachings of the Bible. If they follow more of the old testament laws then someone else, or just more little rules in general, they may be more discriminative then another Christian who thinks Gays should not be killed, abortion doctors should be killed, non Christian should not be killed, etc.

but where does the golden rule, a forgiveness, and turning the other cheek come into this?

Ellis D, Im sure I made a long reply to that same question a while back, i'll look for it.

I replied to similar qualms that you demonstrate above, to a long silence yet to be broken:

Originally Posted by psychology student

Ellis D: I hope you've heard of the Golden rule
Matthew chapter 7 verse 12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."Luke chapter 6 verse 27: " Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you".
I dont see how the latter fits in conjunction with the pure speculation of Ellis D:


"Therefore you, and "all Christians" should support the killing of Homosexuals, Children, Women, Rape Victims, Witches, Fortunetellers, Non-believers, Adulterers, Fornicators, False Prophets, Women who are not Virgins on their wedding night, Blasphemers, Infidels, and People who work on Sunday(the Sabbath).
You should also support Sex Slaves, Rape, Pillaging, Ritual Human Sacrifice, and Child Sacrifice.
Also you should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians".





Ellis D also likes to misquote Jesus, thank God Jesus is such a loving person.
"Matthew 5:17-18

Quote:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"

First of all what do you think prompted such a statement? A belief that he had previously or was believed to aspire to abolish the law.

Ellis D didn't want to include the passage that follows his mis-quotation:

"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven".

The Pharisees as a group of pre-christ Jewish religious leaders who uphold the law. Jesus is saying here that one must go beyond the law, beyond the upholders of the law (changing the law). It even could be interpreted that one who breaks the law will still be in heaven as long as they follow Jesus. The whole combined passages can be seen as satire on the Pharisees, the religious leaders who Jesus sees as hypocrites.

After this are a series of passages where he deliberately and explicitly changes the law:
Murder

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,(Exodus 20:13) and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca', (shows contempt)' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'(Exodus 20:14) 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'(Deuteronomy 21:4) 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

An Eye for an Eye

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'(Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy. 19:21) 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor(Leviticus 19:18 ) and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Yeah, I think he does change the law, and I don't think that he preaches hatred, in any way, but unreciprocal unrequited love.

And thats the way the cookie crumbles!

Doesn't sound like dodge to me!

And this was in reply to your similar unfounded scepticism at the time:
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychology student
I do speak for every Christian when I say that true Christians follow Christ, and not the old testament laws, (as this is Christianity).

You don't really seem to know this Jesus guy too well.

Matthew 5:17-18

Quote:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished


Therefore you, and "all Christians" should support the killing of Homosexuals, Children, Women, Rape Victims, Witches, Fortunetellers, Non-believers, Adulterers, Fornicators, False Prophets, Women who are not Virgins on their wedding night, Blasphemers, Infidels, and People who work on Sunday(the Sabbath).

You should also support Sex Slaves, Rape, Pillaging, Ritual Human Sacrifice, and Child Sacrifice.

Also you should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians.



Whats that you say? These aren't relevant anymore? They're open to interpretation? They're metaphors? the Old Testament is defunct because Jesus was the “lamb” to clear away its rules and regulations?


Well I say Bullshit. And so does Jesus

Quote:
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Quote:
"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Quote:
“...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Quote:
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” -Jesus (Matthew 15:4-7)

__________________

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

I'm particularly interested in what i have put in Bold near the bottom. As in Church at my school, they repeat that belief in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour is the only necessary requirement to enter Heaven, you are not judged by your actions.
This confuses me in a way. Christians claim to be very virtuous and moral because God requires it of them. But here it suggests really that is not necessary. So basically what is true? Are you judged by your deeds or not are your sins weighed? Surely it is a just system to consider ones actions. Murder in the name of God is still murder for example, but if they murdered a homosexual because they believed God wanted them to, then what?
Basicallty what are the requirements to enter Heaven?

There are many people who 'believe' in Jesus. Even Satan believes in Him. But simple belief is not really enough.
Here's the deal. According to the Word, all have sinned. Sin is going against God's instructions. Because it is inherant in us, we all naturally sin. None of us are righteous and sinless. None. Not Billy Graham, not me, not anyone. We're all in the same boat.
According to the Word, the punishment for sin, any sin, is death, not physical death, for we all die physically, but rather eternal separation from God. Spiritual death.
But God does NOT desire that. In order for us to regain union and fellowship with Him, our sin debt must be paid. There must be a death. And that debt has been paid. For all of us. Jesus took upon Himself all the sins of all mankind for all time. And He suffered that death in our place.
For us to have eternal life and fellowship with the God Who created us, all we have to do is first, recognize that we are sinners, second, believe that He did this for us, third, accept it, accept His gift that He is freely offering us, and fourth, give our life to Him, place it in His hands, and allow Him to guide us.
When we do this, He 'revives' our spirit, and in spirit we become new creatures.
But, just because we have been born again in spirit does not mean that we have gotten rid of the flesh. It's still there, with all it's old desires and lusts.
As we grow and mature in Christ, we learn to overcome the flesh, and live for Christ. As we follow Him, our external lives will begin to transform. Not all at once. I can assure you, there are NO perfect Christians out there. Every single one of them is dealing with their flesh. That's why you see Christians sinning. But we are commanded to obey God, and when we sin, we are to repent, and stop doing it, and choose the right way instead.

As far as killing others in the name of Christ, that, frankly, is nonsense. God's Word clearly says we should not commit murder. If some 'spirit' is telling us to go kill someone in the name of Christ, for some greater good, that is NOT God telling us that, it is some other spirit. God does not deal with us the same way He did under the old covenant with Israel. We are under a new covenant, one that says to love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. If we are even angry without cause toward our brother, we have already committed murder in our heart.

Now I'm not here to argue points with anyone, and I'm not going to. But this person deserved an answer to the question. I hope it was answered.

Originally Posted by psychology student

but where does the golden rule, a forgiveness, and turning the other cheek come into this?

Exactly! The contradictions are astounding!


You responded to Adultery, Divorce, Oaths(liars), Eye for an Eye, and Love for Enemies.

All in all you responded to one form of gross punishment that I asked about, Adultery. Even then you only stated what one should do to oneself for essentially having the thoughts that Jesus designed them to have.(It's human nature to pop a boner when a fly bitch struts by .) It still didn't retract the whole "KILL ADULTERERS" law put forth in the OT.

What about all the other "laws" that Jesus never had the decency to change, or even mention?
the killing of Homosexuals, Children, Women, Rape Victims, Witches, Fortunetellers, Non-believers, Fornicators, False Prophets, Women who are not Virgins on their wedding night, Blasphemers, Infidels, and People who work on Sunday(the Sabbath).
You should also support Sex Slaves, Rape, Pillaging, Ritual Human Sacrifice, and Child Sacrifice.
Also you should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians".

Yeah, I think he does change the law, and I don't think that he preaches hatred, in any way, but unreciprocal unrequited love.

He added metaphorical mumbo jumbo, and in no way changed the Old Testament Law. He essentially said:
"If your brain(which I gave you) has a "dirty/hateful" thought(which I allowed you to have) you should punish yourself"

He DOES NOT remove OT Law, and he doesn't change it either.

So I'd like to read in the news tomorrow that some guy from London killed every Homosexual, Rapist, Rape Victim, Witch, Fortuneteller, Non-believer, Fornicator, False Prophet, Woman who was not a virgin on her wedding night, Blasphemer, Infidel, and Person who works on Sunday that he came into contact with.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

It's human nature to pop a boner when a fly bitch struts by

Yes, sin has become human nature since the birth of original sin, when the devil tempted Adam and Eve.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

What about all the other "laws" that Jesus never had the decency to change, or even mention?
the killing of Homosexuals, Children, Women, Rape Victims, Witches, Fortunetellers, Non-believers, Fornicators, False Prophets, Women who are not Virgins on their wedding night, Blasphemers, Infidels, and People who work on Sunday(the Sabbath).
You should also support Sex Slaves, Rape, Pillaging, Ritual Human Sacrifice, and Child Sacrifice.
Also you should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians".

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." This is called the Golden rule, and according to Jesus it sums up the Law, applies to everything he missed. Ok, does what you said above agree with the philosophy, "do to others what you would have them do to you"? If it doesn't then it is an implication of that differentiation that Jesus changed the law.


"If your brain(which I gave you) has a "dirty/hateful" thought(which I allowed you to have) you should punish yourself"

I think your talking about Mark 9:47
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (King James version)

Jesus is not actually telling people to remove their eyes in mass. The disciples did not do so, christians do not do so. The significance of this verse is the illustration of the grimness of hell, the wages of sin, by claiming that it is worse then horrific self harm.
You are also under the illusion that God is punishing us for the way he made us! No, we sin because of the devil and the birth of original sin at the devils temptation.

Christians are peaceful, loving people, go to any church and see that, just don't misjudge them through a superficial understanding of a limited, biased sample of their holy book.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Yes, sin has become human nature since the birth of original sin, when the devil tempted Adam and Eve.

Urm.... so is it a sin to look at a women and feel sexual thoughts, lust, for her?

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

Urm.... so is it a sin to look at a women and feel sexual thoughts, lust, for her?

if your attached to another woman

oh, ok. Still it is not possible to never look at another women and not feel any kind of interest, even if you are married. It is nature, the desire to reproduce. You can ignore it and stay with your wife as most do, or follow it and have an affair.

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

oh, ok. Still it is not possible to never look at another women and not feel any kind of interest, even if you are married. It is nature, the desire to reproduce. You can ignore it and stay with your wife as most do, or follow it and have an affair.

Being tempted is not a sin. Acting on that temptation is.

Originally Posted by Gramps

Being tempted is not a sin. Acting on that temptation is.

??28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.??

Originally Posted by Elis D.

??28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.??

I know, we're all fucked

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

I know, we're all fucked

You don't have to be. He provided a way. It's up to you to accept that way or reject it, however.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Yes, sin has become human nature since the birth of original sin, when the devil tempted Adam and Eve.

Wait, I don't understand... the Devil was able to fundamentally change humanity? This makes him a god. If he is not a god, then he should be unable to change humanity.

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." This is called the Golden rule, and according to Jesus it sums up the Law, applies to everything he missed. Ok, does what you said above agree with the philosophy, "do to others what you would have them do to you"? If it doesn't then it is an implication of that differentiation that Jesus changed the law.

Ok, cool, I get it. But then why does the Xian right feel the need to try and force people to live the way they want? Re: Homosexuality, Drug Laws, Censorship... Do unto others and all that jazz. They'd sure get pissed if I tried to force them to live the way I wanted them to.

"If your brain(which I gave you) has a "dirty/hateful" thought(which I allowed you to have) you should punish yourself"

I think your talking about Mark 9:47
"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (King James version)

Jesus is not actually telling people to remove their eyes in mass. The disciples did not do so, christians do not do so. The significance of this verse is the illustration of the grimness of hell, the wages of sin, by claiming that it is worse then horrific self harm.
You are also under the illusion that God is punishing us for the way he made us! No, we sin because of the devil and the birth of original sin at the devils temptation.

It's not a metaphor for hell, he's saying that for every sin(which is a bullshit concept to begin with, and I might make a thread about that in the near future) there needs to be an immediate punishment.

Why is it that every time there is a law put forth by God or Jesus that doesn't effect an Xian's comfort zone it needs to be obeyed TO THE LETTER, but anything that starts to breach that buffer between being a Xian, and Living as Christ commanded, its a metaphor?

Christians are peaceful, loving people, go to any church and see that, just don't misjudge them through a superficial understanding of a limited, biased sample of their holy book.

I "was" a Xian for the first ~17 years of my life, I'm 18 now. I don't have a "limited, biased" sample, I've read the Bible cover to cover at least 4 times, been to Sunday School/Church every week of my life, and missed maybe 5 weeks total. I've been a member of 5 different churches, and most of the members were superficial, judgmental people.
Both of my parents are fundamentalist Xians, and I was too, then I saw things in the Bible that MADE NO SENSE. So I started asking questions.
I asked my youth pastor, I asked the head pastor, I asked my mom, and I asked my father, and you know what the response I got from each of them was? (Minor differences notwithstanding)
"You shouldn't ask those kind of questions" "Why?" "Because God works in mysterious ways, and he doesn't like when we question his authority"
If god doesn't like it when we ask questions, then why did he give us the ability to ask them? Oh that's right, he doesn't exist, and it's the Church who doesn't want people to ask questions. Because religion is just in place for social control. Yeah sure they'll do good things in the name of god, but they also do terrible things, saying it's because god wants them to.
The Crusades, killing abortion doctors, and things like that are examples used by people, and yeah they're bad. However, There are much worse things done daily by people who are doing so in the name of god.
Families ripped apart because the parents just so happen to be 2 guys.
Mothers left terrified that their son is going to be killed in prison because he got caught by Officer Bob smoking a joint and got 25 YEARS IN PRISON!(not an exaggeration).
And many other smaller things that the Conservative Right Wingers and Christian Parents Groups force upon the public, censorship in the media, slowing the growth of technology and other smaller offenses because Jesus doesn't like swear words and boobies and stem cell research.
If he doesn't like it why then did he give us the ability to have these ideas, thoughts, feelings? And don't give me that Free Will bull, because it's the mark of a malevolent being to punish someone for doing something they were allowed to do.

Originally Posted by Gramps

You don't have to be. He provided a way. It's up to you to accept that way or reject it, however.

And why does one have to repent for a human fallacy that we were blessed by God to have been given?

Originally Posted by Elis D.

And why does one have to repent for a human fallacy that we were blessed by God to have been given?

You don't have to.
If you are not a Christian, you are not expected to. But, if you desire fellowship with the God Who created you, you'll need to accept the free gift He is offering you, and learn to walk as He suggests.
Otherwise, continue as you are. You don't need to change a thing.
But consider this: When you plant an apple seed, you will end up with an apple tree, with apples. It won't grow oranges. If you plant seed from weeds, you will not end up with a fine crop of corn. You'll get weeds. Whatever you sow is exactly what you will reap.
Applied spiritually, if you sin, you will reap the natural result of that sin.
If a parent tells his child that boiling water will burn him, he doesn't tell him that to be mean or cruel, or to keep the child from having fun or limit his natual curiosity. If the child ignores the direction of his parent and puts his hand in the boiling water, he will get burned, the natural result of his disobedience.
God says the natural result of our sinning is death. He tells us that not to be cruel, or keep us from having fun, He tells us because He loves us and desires that we not die that death. But if we ignore Him, and do it anyway, we'll die that death.
Fact is, all of us have sinned. And death will result. The only question is whose. You can suffer your own death, or accept the death that Christ suffered in YOUR place, so that you don't have to. But to accept it also requires your learning to walk in obedience.
So my friend, the choice is yours. No one can make it for you. Feel free to die your own death if that is what you desire.

Originally Posted by Gramps

You don't have to.
If you are not a Christian, you are not expected to. But, if you desire fellowship with the God Who created you, you'll need to accept the free gift He is offering you, and learn to walk as He suggests.
Otherwise, continue as you are. You don't need to change a thing.
But consider this: When you plant an apple seed, you will end up with an apple tree, with apples. It won't grow oranges. If you plant seed from weeds, you will not end up with a fine crop of corn. You'll get weeds. Whatever you sow is exactly what you will reap.
Applied spiritually, if you sin, you will reap the natural result of that sin.
If a parent tells his child that boiling water will burn him, he doesn't tell him that to be mean or cruel, or to keep the child from having fun or limit his natual curiosity. If the child ignores the direction of his parent and puts his hand in the boiling water, he will get burned, the natural result of his disobedience.
God says the natural result of our sinning is death. He tells us that not to be cruel, or keep us from having fun, He tells us because He loves us and desires that we not die that death. But if we ignore Him, and do it anyway, we'll die that death.
Fact is, all of us have sinned. And death will result. The only question is whose. You can suffer your own death, or accept the death that Christ suffered in YOUR place, so that you don't have to. But to accept it also requires your learning to walk in obedience.
So my friend, the choice is yours. No one can make it for you. Feel free to die your own death if that is what you desire.

But WHY!? Why according to Xianity do we, who are sinners "from birth"( i.e. something we can't help because it is human nature), need to repent for fear of being punished by an all powerful, completely loving god, who created a place of eternal punishment for those of us who didn't accept his free gift, that we don't need to accept but if we don't we'll be tortured for the rest of forever?

Originally Posted by Elis D.

But WHY!? Why according to Xianity do we, who are sinners "from birth"( i.e. something we can't help because it is human nature), need to repent for fear of being punished by an all powerful, completely loving god, who created a place of eternal punishment for those of us who didn't accept his free gift, that we don't need to accept but if we don't we'll be tortured for the rest of forever?

God created the lake of fire specifically for Satan and those angels who follow him. It's not created for us.
But if we continually reject God, and rebel against Him (which is what sin is), that is our other option. He doesn't want us to go there. He wants us to be in His presence for eternity. If we go to the lake of fire, it will be by our own choice that we go there. The way is provided so that we don't HAVE to go there.
There is some controversy about the duration of the lake of fire, and whether those who go there will at some point simply cease to exist. None of that is really important, however, for either way, if we reject God, we will have missed what we were created to be.
As far as needing to accept it, that's up to you. If you don't care, or if you hate God and do not desire to be in His presence for eternity, then you certainly don't have to do a thing.
But if you want to be with Him, you're going to have to approach Him on His terms, not your own. He's the One Who dictates how He is approached, and He doesn't ask us if we like that way or not.
He'll provide you with plenty of opportunities to change your mind and follow Him. Even to your last breath. Why? Because He really does love you, and He really does desire the best for you, and is willing to show you how if you give Him a chance.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

Wait, I don't understand... the Devil was able to fundamentally change humanity? This makes him a god. If he is not a god, then he should be unable to change humanity.

I know you seem confounded by the concept of us being punished for our faults, that you supose God gave us. Let me explain how I percieve the situation: it was the devil who made Eve eat from the tree, creating sin, and all the bad implications of it. Only when we are free of sin, can we be reconciled with God, who is pure.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

Wait, I don't understand... the Devil was able to fundamentally change humanity? This makes him a god. If he is not a god, then he should be unable to change humanity.



Ok, cool, I get it. But then why does the Xian right feel the need to try and force people to live the way they want? Re: Homosexuality, Drug Laws, Censorship... Do unto others and all that jazz. They'd sure get pissed if I tried to force them to live the way I wanted them to.



It's not a metaphor for hell, he's saying that for every sin(which is a bullshit concept to begin with, and I might make a thread about that in the near future) there needs to be an immediate punishment.

Why is it that every time there is a law put forth by God or Jesus that doesn't effect an Xian's comfort zone it needs to be obeyed TO THE LETTER, but anything that starts to breach that buffer between being a Xian, and Living as Christ commanded, its a metaphor?

The disciples never did this, Jesus never actively encouraged it, his followers never did it. The action is unheard of, thus it is taken symbolically.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

I "was" a Xian for the first ~17 years of my life, I'm 18 now. I don't have a "limited, biased" sample, I've read the Bible cover to cover at least 4 times, been to Sunday School/Church every week of my life, and missed maybe 5 weeks total. I've been a member of 5 different churches, and most of the members were superficial, judgmental people.
Both of my parents are fundamentalist Xians, and I was too, then I saw things in the Bible that MADE NO SENSE. So I started asking questions.
I asked my youth pastor, I asked the head pastor, I asked my mom, and I asked my father, and you know what the response I got from each of them was? (Minor differences notwithstanding)
"You shouldn't ask those kind of questions" "Why?" "Because God works in mysterious ways, and he doesn't like when we question his authority"
If god doesn't like it when we ask questions, then why did he give us the ability to ask them? Oh that's right, he doesn't exist, and it's the Church who doesn't want people to ask questions. Because religion is just in place for social control. Yeah sure they'll do good things in the name of god, but they also do terrible things, saying it's because god wants them to.

It seems you have been unlucky in not finding answers. maybe you have given up, but keep searching. Try asking an expert in Theology, at a big church, a university, a bible forum, or the big man himself.

And Christianity is not social control these days. I personally think religion should be a personal thing. But if a Christian tries to preach to you or convert you, don't see it as an act of domination, but try to realise that he or she genuinely believes that Christianity is the way of life, the way to salvation. Thus, from their perspective at least, they are actually teying to help you in the best way they know how.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

The Crusades, killing abortion doctors, and things like that are examples used by people, and yeah they're bad. However, There are much worse things done daily by people who are doing so in the name of god.
Families ripped apart because the parents just so happen to be 2 guys.
Mothers left terrified that their son is going to be killed in prison because he got caught by Officer Bob smoking a joint and got 25 YEARS IN PRISON!(not an exaggeration).

I've said this to someone before, about the crusades, they weren't solely a biblical thing aiming in entirety to banish Islam from the Holyland. The first crusade was prompted by Christians being mistreated and murdered in the Turkey, this is not a biblical motivation, but more of a political motivation. But individuals see it as a bunch of zealous Christians deciding that they have nothing better to do.

And people killing Abortion doctors, if it occurs, is not a Christian as the bible says, and mainstream Christianity does not condone it. could you tell me more about this, though, i have not heard of it.

only one tiny little part of the bible was actually written when Jesus was around. when there is a contradiction which do you think is more important? what a verse says when Jesus was around or what a verse says before or after?

the problem with a lot of churches is they follow the before and after but not what was said during

Although you essentially dodged all my questions, I'll disregard most of it and restate these two.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

Why is it that every time there is a law put forth by God or Jesus that doesn't effect an Xian's comfort zone it needs to be obeyed TO THE LETTER, but anything that starts to breach that buffer between being a Xian, and actually Living as Christ commanded, its a metaphor?

i.e Give up all your stuff, "Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." Matthew 5:42 "Judge not lest ye be judged"
Why do Xians use religion as a means for social control but when their comfort zones get invaded it's not meant to be taken word for word.

The Crusades, killing abortion doctors, and things like that are examples used by people, and yeah they're bad. However, There are much worse things done daily by people who are doing so in the name of god.
Families ripped apart because the parents just so happen to be 2 guys.
Mothers left terrified that their son is going to be killed in prison because he got caught by Officer Bob while smoking a joint and got 25 YEARS IN PRISON!(not an exaggeration).
And many other smaller things that the Conservative Right Wingers and Christian Parents Groups force upon the public, censorship in the media, slowing the growth of technology and other smaller offenses because Jesus doesn't like swear words and boobies and stem cell research.
If he doesn't like it why then did he give us the ability to have these ideas, thoughts, feelings? And don't give me that Free Will bull, because it's the mark of a malevolent being to punish someone for doing something they were allowed to do.

??? Without using God said so, or the Bible says it, give me one valid reason for each one of these questions.
Why should gay marriage be illegal?
Why should drugs be illegal?
Stem Cell Research?
Why should censorship be so extreme?
???



And Gramps, IDK if you've been online since, but I'll post this again.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

But WHY!? Why according to Xianity do we, who are sinners "from birth"( i.e. something we can't help because it is human nature), need to repent for fear of being punished by an all powerful, completely loving god, who created a place of eternal punishment for those of us who didn't accept his free gift, that we don't need to accept but if we don't we'll be tortured for the rest of forever?