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Just for reference, where in the Bible does it say God is omnipotent, omnicient, and completely just? Also, where does it say that we have free will, that God created us individually, and that God sends people to hell. Any passages describing Hell and what warrants going to Hell would be appreciated. Thanks!
EDIT: If Chaplain Tim could undertake this, I'd be quite grateful.
Hey, I dont know were in the Bible it says that stuff but my friend and I had a discussion on the free will topic and came up with we DO have free will, our proof:
We make dissicions....
Why would God LET the devil temp us when he knows its going to happen?
Because We have free will to dicide to give in or not, he lets us decide between Hell or Heaven, I dont think he decides for us.
Thus we have free will, we have decisions, he knows the future, he knows what going to happen but I dont think he controls whats going to happen, even though if he wanted to he could.
Hell:
from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm
The Bible states that after his death, Jesus descended into Hell. But his soul did not remain there, nor did his body decay. The implication is that Hell is located underground, apparently in a cavern deep under the surface of the earth. Consider: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifMatthew 12:40: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." 2 [If interpreted literally, this passage does conflict with other verses in the Bible which imply that Jesus was buried on a Friday afternoon, and resurrected very early on Sunday morning, totaling three days but only two nights.]http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifActs 2:29-31: "...let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried...Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifRomans 10:6-7: " Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)"http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifEphesians 4:7-9: "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?)"The heat of Hell:
In the Christian Scriptures, one of the most common attributes mentioned about Hell is its high temperature:http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifMatthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifMatt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." This passage relates to Jesus' judgment of all the world.http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifMark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis.http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifLuke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell.http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifRevelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifRevelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Brimstone is sulphur. In order for sulphur to form a lake, it must be molten. Thus, its temperature must be at or below 444.6 °C or 832 °F.
Other torments in Hell:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifIn spite of the flames, Hell is totally dark: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifMatthew 8:12: "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness..."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifMatthew 22:13: "...take him away, and cast him into outer darkness."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifMatthew 25:30: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness..."Torturing prisoners with sulphur: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifRevelation 14:10: "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." The "Lamb" here refers to Jesus. It is not clear whether Jesus and the angels are present as torturers or merely as observers.Worms -- apparently flesh-eating: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifMark 9:44-48: "Where their worm dieth not..." The immortal worm is repeated three times in this passage for emphasis. One point of interest is that the author of Mark refers to "their worm" not to "the worms." That seems to imply that each prisoner has his own worm.Extreme thirst: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifLuke 16:23-26: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."Prisoner's reaction to the torment: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifThe punishment in Hell lasts forever:Matthew 8:12: "...there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifMatthew 13:42: "... there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifMatthew 13:50: " there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul2d.gifMatthew 25:30: "... there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The torment is apparently for all eternity; it never ceases:http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifMatthew 25:46: " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifMark 9:43-48: "...it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" The unquenched fire is mentioned three times in this passage for emphasis.http://www.religioustolerance.org/_t...o/topbul1d.gifRevelation 14:11: " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."
The idea of an almost all powerful super evil being that god not only allows to roam with his army of demons, but also CREATED the guy, walking around with the only goal of tempting us to sin, which has no advantage to him except to make god sad (supposedly), is, to put it succinctly, utterly laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis
I will always be healthfully agnostic about a god (de facto atheist), but the devil is a character to scare little kiddies just like the boogie man, nothing more.
If God was small enough for our minds, he wouldent be big enough for our needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Needcatscan
Who knows why God does what he does, Nobody can completly understand God.
I think in my opinion the bible contradicts itself on this. The bible gives the christian god this greek/roman god type position (like having human traits) at some points and at other times it presents god in a different fashion. Obviously the bible had many authors during different time periods so this is to be expected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis
I know you're relatively new to the R/S forums, so I'll try not to be too harsh ;)
This is a "faith as a child" quote. Just like Adam and Eve, humanity should not be content with ignorance. Knowledge is not an evil; it is what progresses the human race. If Satan was the one who tempted Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil then he is the proprietor of enlightenment and advancement of the human race.
Christianity teaches to be okay with "god did it" and "god works in mysterious ways" and "we can't understand the mind of god". If humanity had stayed in this way of thinking we would still be in the Christian Dark Ages. Thank goodness (as Dan Dennett says) that we were finally able to break free from this trend, even if the Muslims haven't.
Don't be satisfied with these trite, air-filled answers. Ask the hard questions, gain knowledge of other religions, use your own rationality and reason and come to conclusions. If god commanded the Israelites to kill all those tribes who didn't worship him (man, women, and child, and have the virgins for sex) don't just say "we can't understand the mind of god". Say instead "I'm going to research this and see how it can fit in with the image of a loving god."
Don't have faith as a child, because children believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Boogyman, and Neverland (not Michael Jackson's, many little boys are trying to forget that :)).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needcatscan
Yeah i always thought it was odd that Satan would rather have us knowledgeable and God would rather us be animals, not sentient( it seems to be before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge they were not really aware of themselves existing, like animals, they had no shame of themselves for one, so really they didn't have morals like a sentient being would and they didn't really think about themselves or their surroundings all that much.
Also about some strong Muslim countries/cities being totally set in they ways. I was wondering, if we somehow separated one strong Muslim city were everyone was Muslim and set in their old ways. Say we left them for 500 years like this. It seems to me that if we advanced into spaceships. curing all diseases etc. They would be left in their simple houses and huts, farming their simple rice and grain, herding their animals. I mean they have been as they are for a very long time, if we hadn't introduced out electronic technology i doubt they'd have any at all.
That seems to proof enough to me that remaining strong in your faith and so ignoring questions that cannot be answered, either dramatically slows down or completely halts any kind of development, technologically or otherwise. Although there have been Christian scientists, it seems to be that the idea of such things came from other sources/people, either not religious or of a spiritual background but not a religious one.
Hosea 4:6
(6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
A little misunderstanding about the tree of knowledge.
Understand first what is meant by 'knowing'.
Genesis 4:1
(1) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
From the Biblical perspective, to know something is to experience it.
For me to know Alaska, I must go there and drink the water and breath the air and feel the soil. Seeing it on a map doesn't constitute knowledge of Alaska.
With the tree, it was the tree of the 'knowledge of good and evil'.
Prior to eating from it, Adam and Eve 'knew' God's love and provision, His wisdom and knowledge and power. But they did not 'know' anything about evil, because they had never experienced it.
But the minute they ate from the tree, they experienced evil. Why? Because it was an act of rebellion against God. Thus, when they ate from it, they immediately gained 'knowledge' of both good and evil.
Why did God allow that to happen? He desired that His creatures love Him. But love cannot be forced. You can't tie a person up and stand them in the corner and demand that they love you. Love HAS to be a free choice, otherwise it is not love.
The only way for Adam and Eve to freely choose to love God was to experience not only His love and provision, but the opposite of it as well. THEN they could reasonably make that choice.
But to experience evil is to separate oneself from God. So God provided a way in which man could be reconciled to God. That way was through accepting the free gift of Christ paying our penalty for death in our place.
Adam and Eve made the choice. When they accepted the skins God provided them.
Those skins came from animals, whose innocent blood was shed to cover their 'nakedness'. They acceptance of the skins was their token act of accepting the Sacrifice To Come, whose death would cover their sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
You see that is interesting. Love and worship can not be forced by God, you say God knows this. So if God lives us the choice to love him or not. Although not believing in him is not the same as hating him, take this example. If your child never saw you, but i told them you were their parent, because of a book you wrote in your hand written to them, maybe a book full of love filled messages, you would be upset if when they said they didn't believe you were they parent, especially if they said it to your face. But really they had grown up without your presence and had little evidence to think you were their parent, so although you'd be upset, you'd probably understand.
Since God is one better then you, in that he has an infinite understanding of everything and is also more compassionate and loving then you are, no offense, but he is perfect, you'd think he'd judge rather differently then Christianity describes. So if you do love God, he rewards you with eternal life and bliss, that makes sense i suppose. However if you do not believe in God, you burn forever.
I would understand if God just let you cease to exist at death if you didn't love him. It's still a little too resentful and human for a God in my opinion, but at least it is compassionate in a way. However why is it necessary to torture someone who doesn't love you forever? Maybe they didn't find God because of their upbringing, maybe their mind was rather scientific and their was not enough evidence for them either way, making them agnostic or maybe atheistic. If you were in Gods place, and do not dodge this by saying we cannot understand him, would you sentence people who didn't believe in you, who had otherwise led a very or least reasonable good, kind, virtous life to never ending pain and suffering?
God is one better then you though, he understands everyone of his children, he knows you before your even born, he knows what you will do, what you will become. He knows your life is full of kindness, you never hurt anyone, but you life yourself without a believe in him, maybe you;d rather focus on this life rather then follow what may not be true. SO he understands this, but still he sens you to burn. I believe that is callous and unnecessarily cruel and sick. Humans hurt others because we are not perfect we are not all loving. But God is, yet he delivers a punishment that only the most psychopathic evil person could imagine. Hitler, he punishes all Jews, man, women,child, to horrible torture until their deaths. If you had been able to talk to him, he'd have likely said he'd wish for their pain to go unending. Exactly what God does, to those who do not follow his desires viewpoint. An all loving being would not do this, a normal human would not do this... but a demon, a creature of hate, would.
I am sorry for this attack on your God, but any being that would do this, using some kind of " original sin, everyone is a sinner at birth because of two people, so my cruelty is justified", is not worthy of anything.
Just ask yourself, why can't be just let unbelievers, maybe even huge sinners, end their existence and never get to experience bliss. Why does he HAVE to let people be tortured forever. Think about a friend you know who is not religious or is not Christian, have they wronged so much they deserve never ending torment?
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Obviously there will be people who never heard of Jesus Christ, or too young to understand, and never got the opportunity to choose Him, per se. Yet in their life, they chose to do right things, and love those around them.
I believe, because our God IS a loving God, He will take those things into account.
But that excuse won't work for you will it? You HAVE heard, and been given the opportunity to make that choice.
OK so where to start?
Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Bennington
Luke 18:26: And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. There are a plethera of verses that speak of His power. Even more that tell how just He is. No doubt though you may ask me why did God have to rest of the 7th day which would most definatly bring about doubtful disputations about him being all powerful. The answer to that before it's even asked is "He didn't need to rest. However I have no doubt He most definatly wanted to sit back and scope His creation out."
And as for free will, would you want to create Robots who had no choice but to love you or agents with free will who Love you because of who you are?
And as for God sending anyone to Hell? Actually it isn't. There is a condemnation already on us. God wants that condemnation removed. John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
Yep i have, let us hope that Allah is not the one true God and we have both not followed him you with false idols, me with unbelief.
FixedQuote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
hmmm unfortunately its Christianity's lack of understanding Christ's message that is stopping people from accepting Christ. Good. The Holy Spirit does not want non-believers to accept the false message of churches today anyways
does accepting Christ mean accepting a man with a beard in a robe with a wooden stick and a penis who died on a cross?
or does it mean accepting The Way the Truth and the Life?
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6 (NKJV)
lets do some algebra here people
"I am the way the truth and the life. No ones comes to the Father except through the Way, the Truth and the Life (Me)."
suddenly the message of Christ is not about accepting this magical savior wearing a white robe where you can sit on your arse and twiddle your thumbs. Accepting Christ does not mean accepting this person outside of your being - it means accepting Christ in you, and much more than that.
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Why is it so necessary for Jesus to explain that he is God but also that God is in him and that he is in God? And again makes little sense why Jesus is giving someone else credit for his work if he is the one true God? And why does he need to explain that he is not speaking of himself, but the one dwelling in him?
"Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."
"Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
Again, lets do some algebra here people. If Jesus is in God. And God is in Jesus. And we are in Jesus. And Jesus in us. . then. . .where is God? IN US.
Christianity has NOT internalized Christs message. It still holds Christ as this being outside of ourselves that we must hold onto a level of Godliness that we can't touch with a fifty foot pole. Ive got some upsetting and enlightening revealing news for you. Jesus was a human being. He was born a perfectly normal human being. He was no more God than we.
This difference between us and Jesus was that he was the only human living at the time who understand the relationship between him and God. That God was within him. And by accepting God in him, all things were possible through him. Which is why he feels the need to explain that it is GOD doing the works THROUGH him.
Now lets look at Jesus death, this focal point in Christianity. As atheists have already pointed out - why did a loving God need to kill his only son to save our souls? Especially if he is an almighty God, why was this Gods only option? Why was a sacrifice needed? And why must we feel sorry that Jesus had to sacrifice himself on the cross when the reward of the right hand seat in heaven (Christhood) is a trillion fold better than life on earth anyways? As if, Jesus wants that mortal life back anyways
Maybe because the point wasn't a sacrifice to begin with. But the greatest display mankind has ever witnessed - that death is an illusion as other gurus of the past have already taught *budda*.
If God so needed to kill Jesus, and so required that Jesus be dead to save our souls - then why was Jesus alive three days later?. . . what kind of sacrificed is returned? Maybe, just MAYBE the sacrifice was NEVER needed, but showing people the illusion of death was.
Jesus death didn't stop us from sinning. Jesus death doesn't necessarily bring people any closer to God. (hardly) And Jesus couldn't even manifest the second coming for his contemporaries that he was so sure would happen. Unfortunately, he was wrong in his assumption that his resurrection would have that great of an impact.
Rather than his contemporaries understanding Jesus' resurrection was our resurrection from the illusion of death - he was put on a pedestal where his death was some how necessary for our eternal life. No, it wasn't necessary. We never needed Jesus' death, the whole point was, we already had eternal life.