Can you really believe anything the Bible says?

Well i know the Bible has inaccuracies because of translations and it being editing over time. But i mean right now clergyman in America and England are discussing editing the Bible to make different sexual practices( homosexuality, then i guess sexual deviances) more acceptable. I assume by removing the part saying homosexuality is an abomination.

But basically if they do go through with this and change the Bible so that it fits in with 21st century live( that's what they said about it) then how can you possibility say it is the book of a God even if you do believe in Christianity. If they are going to change such an important part of the Bible( the part telling us sexual deviances is an abomination) then imagine what other people have done to the Bible over the years. I mean king James made all sorts of changed to suit him, how can you take the Bible is book inspired by Gods word, let alone Gods own words( if you believe that which a small number do).

I believe in the Word. the Word however speaks through living people, as it spoke through Jesus and many others. the bible is not a living person, but second hand, third hands and 100 hands later account of these people and the Word that spoke through them. I do believe in many of the things that Jesus said, and that it was the Word. But I take my belief with a grain of salt knowing the original text has been altered so many times, even Jesus' words. I look to other resources. There are texts that have been omitted from the bible. Tossing them out however has spared them 2000 years of alterations.

these out-casted texts are enlightening and change the story of Jesus all together. however, these texts threaten the validation of an organized mega church structure, as well as threaten many of the things dogmatic christianity believes in today.

:banana: while I dislike the catholic church, I can admire them only on the level of their willingness and understanding that the Word speaks through people. not a book. there are many saints in the catholic church, many of which had things to say that went against the grain, even christian dogma. the catholic church also has an admiration of the Mother Mary, and what she has to say in her visions. the catholic church has even the willingness to put the old dusty book down, and again, listen to the truth spoken through people. its one of the largest and most influential religious organizations in the world, and it believes in evolution!!

but today, even these stories of what saints have to say have been warped and twisted to support the church, and the church's ego as the one and only true church. Just as the bible has been warped and twisted a thousand times over to support someones ego, a mans.

even the story of fatima is used by the church to support being catholic. rather than recognizing that at its heart its saying the catholic church has lost the truth of God. fatima and others almost always include a prophesy of the fall of the catholic church. you gotta wonder why Mother Mary is so obsessed with telling the catholic church, YOU ARE GOING TO FALL. And why, only in catholic churches, are her statues seen crying.

this is used by the church to tell their followers the church will fall if people stop being catholic.

but that's not the prophesies say. its not about followers leaving. it will fall when it stops listening to the Word being spoken through people. when it becomes fundamentalist, and clings to an old dusty book, rather than the living God in people.

well, thats what I believe anyways. and thats my view of the bible :bowdown:

Yes, people everywhere believe what the bible says regardless of the criticism of it.

The average human would rather ignore facts then face them and chance that he has been wrong all his life.

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Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

I KNOW THE TITLE IS WRONG, if the "u" after really could be removed that would be great.

Well i know the Bible has inaccuracies because of translations and it being editing over time. But i mean right now clergyman in America and England are discussing editing the Bible to make different sexual practices( homosexuality, then i guess sexual deviances) more acceptable. I assume by removing the part saying homosexuality is an abomination.

But basically if they do go through with this and change the Bible so that it fits in with 21st century live( that's what they said about it) then how can you possibility say it is the book of a God even if you do believe in Christianity. If they are going to change such an important part of the Bible( the part telling us sexual deviances is an abomination) then imagine what other people have done to the Bible over the years. I mean king James made all sorts of changed to suit him, how can you take the Bible is book inspired by Gods word, let alone Gods own words( if you believe that which a small number do).

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Believe what you believe to right. Let no-one tell you which.

The Bible is a good book in places. I don't believe its the word of God because there is no such thing as God, but it is interesting in places.

I quite like Ruth, or at least I am confused by Ruth. Its the story of a normal girl doing her duty as best she can. Why is it even in the Bible?

Proverbs is good if you read it in the right frame of mind. Ecclesiastes is fun. Its all about the pointlessness of life and the fact that the book is wise can be seen in its failure to give an answer to that problem.

I notice a lot of atheists with an interest in the Bible like Revelations. But I'm not a fan. Its just trippy surreal writing of a style that was popular a few thousand years ago. You need to understand a lot about the culture of the time to get anything out of it at all. Too much effort.

So yeah. In amongst the bible there are some truths. Its worth giving a read. So many atheists and similarly minded people criticise the book for its contradictions without ever bothering to study it with an open mind.

I don't see what would suggest that the Bible is especially worth reading. Sure, it might have it's good passages. But it's ancient literature. If you're interested in ancient literature that's fine. But how many people who say that the Bible is good, even independent of religious context, actually read all the other ancient literature of the time? How many people read the Vedes or whatever? Or Homer, or Cicero? Or the Tao te Ching?

I guarantee you that just about any book you pick off a bookshelf in a store today will be wiser and more insightful and intellectually relevant than the bible. The only reason to take a closer look at the bible would be a profound interest in ancient literature or the Christian religion. In any other case, it's just a waste of time. It's mostly just BAD writing, full of inconsistencies, errors, gore and stupidity. Most of the alleged "wisdoms" of the bible I heard of are things that most of us could come up with ourselves in a short brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

I KNOW THE TITLE IS WRONG, if the "u" after really could be removed that would be great.

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In the R/S thread menu, click next to the thread's name within 24 hours of the first post, and edit in the name in the then-displayed box.

Alternatively, you can also edit the first post and change the title within 24 hours of it's posting.

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Originally Posted by Korittke

If you're interested in ancient literature that's fine. But how many people who say that the Bible is good, even independent of religious context, actually read all the other ancient literature of the time? How many people read the Vedes or whatever? Or Homer, or Cicero? Or the Tao te Ching?

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I've read the Bhagavad Gita, some ancient hymns of Akhenaten, passages from the Qu'ran, a bit of old Zoroastrian stuff, bits and pieces from ancient, new age, satanist, and modern spiritual belief systems, some Baha'i stuff and a lot of other stuff. Comparative religion is kind of a hobby of mine.

I guess I've read an okay amount of other literature. I'm not very good at literature as a subject and I sure as Hell am not a Christian. But yeah. I'd say some parts of the Bible are pretty good.

Unrelatedly, sorry. I seem to be arguing with you a lot at the moment. Please don't take that as a lack of respect for your beliefs. You seem like a nice person.

It wasn't directed at you specifically. Sometimes I seem to encounter a sort of apologist who will tell me that, even if completely untrue, the bible as a whole is still one of the best, if not the single best, literary work ever conceived by man. And that's veeery far from the truth.

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Originally Posted by apachama

I've read the Bhagavad Gita, some ancient hymns of Akhenaten, passages from the Qu'ran, a bit of old Zoroastrian stuff, bits and pieces from ancient, new age, satanist, and modern spiritual belief systems, some Baha'i stuff and a lot of other stuff. Comparative religion is kind of a hobby of mine.

I guess I've read an okay amount of other literature. I'm not very good at literature as a subject and I sure as Hell am not a Christian. But yeah. I'd say some parts of the Bible are pretty good.

Unrelatedly, sorry. I seem to be arguing with you a lot at the moment. Please don't take that as a lack of respect for your beliefs. You seem like a nice person.

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I have read the Art of War by Sun Tzu, of which is a fascinating read. The book itself is a lot more coherent and useful, not from a morality standpoint, but when dealing with leadership and organisations. Compared to what I have read of the Bible, it has been far easier to understand The Art of War, though it helps having a very concise (if somewhat cryptic) book. In terms of ancient literature, the Bible is not really that great in comparison to other things you can read.

Words hold but connotations.

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Originally Posted by ClouD

Words hold but connotations.

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But even connotations can contradict, contrary to the consensus of the collective.

Connotations...hahaha...

You can believe anything in the bible. Then again, you can also believe anything in the Freddy Kreuger movies, and it's (assumedly) got nothing to do with the "word of god." People constantly come up with rationalizations and supposed proofs for why the bible (in whole or in part) is or cannot be true. Individual belief has nothing to do with accuracy, unless (sometimes even if) you want it to. You can believe it's true (you can believe individual translated versions of it are true, and many people do), you can believe it's all metaphors, you can believe bits of it are true and other bits are either metaphor or lost in translation, or you can believe it's entirely false amnd has nothing to do with reality, except that it was set in mostly-believable circumstances.

As for what cuddlyperson was referencing, with the editing of the bble to makje it more PC, that's just ridiculous. EIther stand by your religios texts as the word of god, or mess around with them and allow them to be used as guidelines rather than laws., You can't eat your cake, and still have it, too.

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Originally Posted by JET73L

You can believe anything in the bible. Then again, you can also believe anything in the Freddy Kreuger movies, and it's (assumedly) got nothing to do with the "word of god." People constantly come up with rationalizations and supposed proofs for why the bible (in whole or in part) is or cannot be true. Individual belief has nothing to do with accuracy, unless (sometimes even if) you want it to. You can believe it's true (you can believe individual translated versions of it are true, and many people do), you can believe it's all metaphors, you can believe bits of it are true and other bits are either metaphor or lost in translation, or you can believe it's entirely false amnd has nothing to do with reality, except that it was set in mostly-believable circumstances.

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The next step would be checking which of the possibilities is stupid and which is not and acting in accordance with what has been found.

I believe the Bible holds much truth and wisdom. But you can only understand the Bible if you try to understand it. You can only find the truth and wisdom in the Bible if you seek for the truth and wisdom. If you search for bullshit, you will find bullshit. If you search for truth, you will find truth.

Anyway, I think it's funny how people take everything in the Bible litterally and leave no room for interpretation. Both atheists and christians =O Please... how can anyone believe that Eve was litterally created out of rib of Adam, and that this was not a metaphor? How can anyone believe Adam, man, was made out of clay, and that this was not a metaphor?

For example, the movie the Matrix holds some philosophical value. But you will never understand it, if you take everything litteral. People read the Bible as if it's some scientific document, but this is so not true... imo the Bible is a philosophical work on the relation between God and men.

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Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Anyway, I think it's funny how people take everything in the Bible litterally and leave no room for interpretation. Both atheists and christians =O Please... how can anyone believe that Eve was litterally created out of rib of Adam, and that this was not a metaphor? How can anyone believe Adam, man, was made out of clay, and that this was not a metaphor?

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How can anyone believe that god sent his only son to the Middle East for no apparant reason, only to get nailed to a cross, but then rise from the dead a couple of days afterwards and that this was not a metaphor?

Seriously, it's just bad writing.

It could be a methaphor for the pagan rituals of rebirth. In the old days, before christianity took over Europe, in your country and my country, the native religion was some kind of shamanism. People would fast for a long period of time, and then lock themselves up for 3 days, complete sensory depriviation, which will induce very very vivid forced lucid dreams. Just like Jesus was locked into a cave and reborn, you can too, lock yourself into a cave for three days, and be reborn. Being totally deprived from light will increase the DMT and melatonin production in the brains (the chemicals responsible for dreaming), and will force you into a very very vivid lucid dream. When you go back into the light, you will feel like you are reborn.
Anyway, after Christianity come to our regions, everyone practising shamanism, the native religion, was burned to the stake for being a witch.

This is an example of another possible interpretation, which could possible be bullshit, but everyone is free to intrerpret the Bible like he wants I guess, but imo, it's more interesting to have a intrepretation that makes sense, than having an interpretation that sounds like total bullshit. But yeah I wont disagree on the bad writing.

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Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

It could be a methaphor for the pagan rituals of rebirth. In the old days, before christianity took over Europe, in your country and my country, the native religion was some kind of shamanism. People would fast for a long period of time, and then lock themselves up for 3 days, complete sensory depriviation, which will induce very very vivid forced lucid dreams. Just like Jesus was locked into a cave and reborn, you can too, lock yourself into a cave for three days, and be reborn. Being totally deprived from light will increase the DMT and melatonin production in the brains (the chemicals responsible for dreaming), and will force you into a very very vivid lucid dream. When you go back into the light, you will feel like you are reborn.
Anyway, after Christianity come to our regions, everyone practising shamanism, the native religion, was burned to the stake for being a witch.

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This is the best possible explanation for the New Testament as a metaphor since... Well, ever, actually. Well, sort of. I misread your idea to be a reference to casting off one's previous religion after a period of fasting and prayer, before metaphorically being reborn as a christian, and not to do with later european pagan references. But still. Interesting.

@korrittke: One problem with fact-checking against the bible (or many other religious texts, for that matter), is that oftentimes long-lasting church dogma eventually overrides any actual history, as history is written by the rulers, (or at least those can write), and the church taught for so long that such accounts as are written in the bible and the saints' archives are to be accepted as fact, and anytrhing else, including what was originally the actual history, would be considered heretical and eradicated.

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Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

But basically if they do go through with this and change the Bible so that it fits in with 21st century live( that's what they said about it) then how can you possibility say it is the book of a God even if you do believe in Christianity. If they are going to change such an important part of the Bible( the part telling us sexual deviances is an abomination) then imagine what other people have done to the Bible over the years. I mean king James made all sorts of changed to suit him, how can you take the Bible is book inspired by Gods word, let alone Gods own words( if you believe that which a small number do).

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Well...I do believe it and swear by it! After all, it was by following the word of the Bible that I found my wives. I followed Hosea 1:1-3, Ruth 4:5-10, Judges 21:19-25, Deuteronomy 21:11-13 (to name a few) and it worked better than match.com, I tell ya, and cheaper too cause you have to pay at a dating site and a Bible you can just steal from any hotel room.

Ahmen!

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Originally Posted by iseeu

Well...I do believe it and swear by it! After all, it was by following the word of the Bible that I found my wives. I followed Hosea 1:1-3, Ruth 4:5-10, Judges 21:19-25, Deuteronomy 21:11-13 (to name a few) and it worked better than match.com, I tell ya, and cheaper too cause you have to pay at a dating site and a Bible you can just steal from any hotel room.

Ahmen!

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I have no idea what to say. So lets look at this

Ruth

Ruth confuses me. I love it in a way. Its a simple story about duty. But... it seems so straightforward. Its just a guide to what you should do. There seems to be little wisdom there. Care to go into more detail about this verse?

Hosea

Hosea was asked to marry a whore in this bit, no? How id this good advice for a Christian marriage?

Judges

This verse is about warriors kidnapping girls and forcing them into marriage.

Dueteronomy

The Bible again condoned rape. This time you have to shave the ladies head and let her mourn before marriage. Which is... nice?

I suspect, after looking these up, that you are kidding. But, hell. This is an interesting lesson for all of us in how fucked up the Bible is.

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Originally Posted by apachama

I have no idea what to say.

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If you have no idea what to say, then say nothing.

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Originally Posted by apachama

The Bible again condoned rape. This time you have to shave the ladies head and let her mourn before marriage. Which is... nice?

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Absolutely! What can be better than shaving a woman's head and then letting her mourn for her lost hair, her lost barret, her lost wig or her lost lice and the accompanying itchy and scratchy sensation.

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Originally Posted by apachama

I suspect, after looking these up, that you are kidding. But, hell. This is an interesting lesson for all of us in how fucked up the Bible is.

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Kidding? Me kidding? NEVER! :eek:

Ive said this before, but Ill say it again. It would be impossible for the bible to be the true work of a god. Simply put...God is suppose to be perfect...humans are not. So even the most pure human could not write down god's word as he wanted it because his imprefect mind would still in some way corrupt it.

THis is going to PO more christians than the "Can god make a stone so big, he can;t lift it?" question, but, theoretically, if this God/Lord/YHWH is perfect, he could make a text thatr is perfectly cleart and unambiguous, and either make it so that the text can be accurately translated into any future language, or edit future languages to allow pe4rfect understanding of the bible. Even if he had to work through a human avatar, he would still be able to guide his (the human's) writing, and make corrections in the book as necessary, without imposing on free will any more than he already had. This is correct, no? The only explanation, allowing for the perfection of the god of the chrisatian bible, and the imperfection of humans, is that the bible was pretty much made up and/or completely altered by humans who had no idea what the messages were, be they from some almighty source, or from quotes and fables that origianally contained wisdom with much more clarity, and that the god merely found that this bible would present no problem, and would not need to be eradicated or changed in the way of false prophets catalogued in said bible.

(note: bible=book. Holy Bible=holy book of the christian church. god=deity. God=name of someone called god, probably a deity.)

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Originally Posted by JET73L

THis is going to PO more christians than the "Can god make a stone so big, he can;t lift it?" question, but, theoretically, if this God/Lord/YHWH is perfect, he could make a text thatr is perfectly cleart and unambiguous, and either make it so that the text can be accurately translated into any future language, or edit future languages to allow pe4rfect understanding of the bible. Even if he had to work through a human avatar, he would still be able to guide his (the human's) writing, and make corrections in the book as necessary, without imposing on free will any more than he already had. This is correct, no? The only explanation, allowing for the perfection of the god of the chrisatian bible, and the imperfection of humans, is that the bible was pretty much made up and/or completely altered by humans who had no idea what the messages were, be they from some almighty source, or from quotes and fables that origianally contained wisdom with much more clarity, and that the god merely found that this bible would present no problem, and would not need to be eradicated or changed in the way of false prophets catalogued in said bible.

(note: bible=book. Holy Bible=holy book of the christian church. god=deity. God=name of someone called god, probably a deity.)

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so lets play along with this, because this deals with a lot

Lets say in this scenario, that yes God is real. We humans call this God perfect, but then turn around and call ourselves imperfect. Then, we imperfect humans write a book about God, saying it is God's words. You brought up the subject of free will, God not wanting to impose on our free will as the maybe one of the reasons why God does not fix the bible.

But, you see there is another probem. Early we write a passage that reads basically as - nothing can be made if it does not come from God.

Have we a problem here? Yes. We just contradicted ourselves. We are saying, God is apart of everything that is. We just said God was perfect. But then called ourselves, who are apart of all that God is, imperfect. We have a problem.

This contradiction is evident in all monotheistic God based religions. We don't have to examine any further than this. In every one, you will find a passage or two that will lead to the belief - God is apart of everything that is. That God is perfect. The creation can not be separate from God. But of course all the rest says contrary - The God is up in the sky, separate from creation, and you are pathetic sinner.

Things get even more interesting when you add Jesus to the mix. He comes in and he says "Im God and Im perfect". We, since we started writing this book will look for anything to buy our way out of having to deal with some of the most mysterious things we wrote. We don't want to think about the all pervading God. That's too weird. That asks us to question everything.

It's much easier for us to see God as a being in the sky, outside of ourselves, judging us from above, then to see God apart of all life. So, Jesus comes around, GREAT. Now, we can put him on a pedestal, raise him above all the rest of humanity and use him as a way to explain "Look, only Jesus is one with God. Not you."

And we can further ignore the contradiction in our own minds.

Problem was, Jesus only added to the contradiction, which is at the heart of christianity. On one side, he says he is one with God. GREAT, lets put him on a pedestal and worship him. Problem solved. But then he doesn't stop there. Then he says something, off the wall crazy. He says, and you are one with me. So now this crazy man is saying we are one with him, which, consequentially, makes us one with God. HOLD THE PHONE, I thought we negated that belief earlier? Damn, I guess were back were we started.

For the while, we don't think about it. We don't think what Jesus really means, that he is one with God. We don't think about the possibility that Jesus is actually, a perfectly normal human being who realized oneness with God in the most Buddhist sense. Because that means what Jesus realized, we can realize too, too weird. Instead, we'll build a religion around him, to shut out his most important words. We'll blind the following generation. We'll turn Jesus into a God that you can not reach or be equal to. Even though Jesus has gone out of his way to show he feels equal to his own apostles through gestures, such as washing their own feet.

We'll ignore these things. We'll even say you can not enter into heaven unless you join our religion and believe exactly as we say, and do as we say. Again, again, ignoring Jesus own words that heaven is within you. Thus it is not a place you buy your entry to.

Just for any christian to say, God is perfect and I am not - is at the heart the greatest issue the human ego has had since being born.

Nice. I applaud your approach, and extensive use of logic. :bravo:

mm, just what I was trying to say but much more through! Bravo!