Thread: Abortion

Your friends are idiots who use repeated arguments that have been beaten to the ground and spat on more than a million times.

Tell them that.

If you want something a bit more, erh, nice, here's what you do:

The "choice" argument is basically that during pregnancy, your mom can decide whether she wants you or not, or more specifically, choose whether you should live or die. The main flaw in this argument, is that the period of time within pregnancy that abortion is usually allowed (except in special cases), the brain is hardly developed at all, or to be more precise, the baby can't care whether it lives or not because...

1: the brain is not developed enough to care
2: bodily instincts, reflexes and nerves are not developed enough to make or send danger signals
3: the "baby" is not aware of itself in the least

Here's why that's a shitty argument (in relativity to arguing against your friends):

The soul is in the baby the second it is conceived, and killing another person (aka soul) is a sin against god, hurr durr.

The bottomline is you can't win. Until your friends understand that the soul is merely a methaphorical description of a very advanced brain function (that we've yet to discover or research), they will always have the understanding that all people have souls.
If, however they believe that, they should also believe in the divine plan, and yatta yatta, if mom chooses to kill a chaos of cells that hardly make any logic sense, then that was also part of the divine plan, more yatta, refer to top paragraph of post.

edit: "divine plan" argument is a shitty argument on my side, just scratch that.

Ugh, I don't like coming in here, but I saw this and had to respond.

They said that people can die during an abortion? That's a lie. Abortions are safe for the mother assuming that there isn't some other variable.

You are right that some women can hurt themselves very badly trying to have a self-abortion. There was a case in which a young girl threw herself down a flight of stairs repeatedly. You have a legitimate argument there, push that point on them.

You could also try telling them that a human doesn't develop until very late in the pregnancy. The heart doesn't form until about halfway through I think and the brain is not formed until after that. Actually, the brain isn't even fully developed at birth, it keeps developing for a few months after. It's the size of a peanut until very late and is no different than a tumor at the stage of an abortion, it has no consciousness, no brain, not heart, it's just a lump of tissue.

Abortions can also play a role in curing cancer. Because of a Bush ban, stem cells now come from the placenta and adult bone marrow, but it's not as good and is severely dampening the research.

They are extremist christians huh? You can easily shut them up by saying this: "Pro life means anti war."

I have some questions.

They told me that the embryo will have a heart within three weeks of pregnancy, that women will not know they are pregnant within a few months. They said that the heart is as good enough as a soul. So, is that even true about the heart? Even then, the brain is what makes them conscious anyway, thank you for that idea.

You say abortions are perfectly safe? They said that the doctors just rip the embryo out with a clamp. I thought to myself that sounded really off. Would a doctor do that? Or did my friends make that up?

Originally Posted by Serenity Dragon

They kept saying, so we're just choices. Your mom could choose to whether or not kill you right now.

She wouldn't have the right to do that...you're being alive isn't have an effect on whether she lives or dies...you are no longer inside her body...

Originally Posted by Serenity Dragon

I have some questions.

They told me that the embryo will have a heart within three weeks of pregnancy, that women will not know they are pregnant within a few months. They said that the heart is as good enough as a soul. So, is that even true about the heart? Even then, the brain is what makes them conscious anyway, thank you for that idea.

You say abortions are perfectly safe? They said that the doctors just rip the embryo out with a clamp. I thought to myself that sounded really off. Would a doctor do that? Or did my friends make that up?

Some of them do use instruments to kill the baby, or embryo, or fetus whatever you want to call it. Sometimes the doctor gives them some kind of tablet to take also that basically dries the thing up and kills it. I don't know how many other ways there are, besides a coat hanger, but I'm pretty sure a doctor won't use that method.

First, I would highly recommend this video:

Second, the heart is of no consequence when the baby is developing. What matters is the brain. With my limited knowledge of this subject, I am pretty confident (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the nervous system and brain are not developed enough for the baby to feel pain, or even have enough self-awareness to know it was alive.

And the argument that every baby has the right to live is completely bogus. A fetus at the time of an abortion (in most cases) has as much self-awareness as my sperm does when I use contraceptive during sex. Actually the sperm probably have more, considering they know they're swimming for the egg. So does that mean every time I jerk off or pull out that I'm killing potential babies? Yup. As Sam Harris says, if we are talking about potential babies we commit a holocaust every time we scratch our nose.

1, no. There is no heart at that stage. At three weeks the fetus is still just a clump of stem cells, no bigger than a few millimeters. If you're curious about the development of a fetus: http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy-...elopment-index

No, abortions are performed by using pills to induce a miscarriage. Those people saying that they just rip it out are using fear mongering to scare people into thinking their way. I don't know where they learned anything about anything, but the egg is attached to the mother, ripping it out would cause bleeding in the uterus. The pills are usually mild toxins, light enough so that the mother's liver simply filters them out of her, but strong enough to make the undeveloped embryo die. Once dead it simple detaches itself and is bled out like a normal period or, for later abortions, like a miscarriage. It causes no harm to the woman other than maybe an extra heavy period flow.

Another common practice is using a little tool to open the woman's cervix (maybe that's where the clamp idea came from.) The air dries out and kills the stem cells, and again they are expelled naturally like a period.

I have this sneaking suspicion that you are asking about this because you are pregnant. Don't go to a priest or a right wing nut for advice, seek a doctor. Someone who actually knows the medical side of things and won't use fear mongering. Remember, no one is pro-abortion, so they will not try and convince you to have one. They are pro-choice. A doctor will give you medically accurate data and leave the choice to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Abortion_methods

There might have been side effects to those pills, there is no mention to them in the wiki article. Looks like saline solution is now used as opposed to air, but it has the same idea, it dries out the stem cells. The saline is probably gentler on the woman's cervix than air was.

Looks like my info was outdated by a few years, but your extremist friends info was really really outdated. Like medieval times outdated.

Have you guys ever seen that HORRIBLE little propaganda pamphlet that the religinutz pass out every now and then?

During high school my friends would pass these things out like candy at the end of October. "Mommy please don't listen to the doctor telling you that I don't have consciousness and can't form grammatical sentences like the one I'm using now to appeal to your emotion. Please. Ouch ouch ouch that needle hurts mommy."

I don't think I can roll my eyes for back enough for this one.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I have this sneaking suspicion that you are asking about this because you are pregnant. Don't go to a priest or a right wing nut for advice, seek a doctor. Someone who actually knows the medical side of things and won't use fear mongering. Remember, no one is pro-abortion, so they will not try and convince you to have one. They are pro-choice. A doctor will give you medically accurate data and leave the choice to you.

No, I am not pregnant, I have never been sexually active, and lol, I've not even had my first kiss yet xP. This thing was on my mind for a few weeks, I keep trying to get my friends to just listen to what I say. Though, whatever I try, they always come up with something. I end up trying to search for it, but I just can't find where it's at. >.< I can be pretty bad with searching on the internet. I also worry if I end up on the wrong site or not.

I wanna see if I can beat them up with this info . The fact that they lied about so much, makes me annoyed. I'm gonna tell them this stuff, and see what they'll say about it. I know they'd probably never change their mind. I think they are closed off, but maybe I can just have them think about it for one moment. Just a moment, have them think... maybe I should rethink this?

I'll post back what they say.

I cannot believe any true Christian would agree with abortion unless their views are twisted. I am a strong Christian myself so I have some opinions on this matter from (hopefuly) a similar perspective.

First off, to clarify, these bodies were given to us by God and He states to be good stewards with what He has given us. I hate it when people say, "Well it is my body and I can do whatever I please with it!" when in reality it was a gift given to be used for His will. If somone was raped and forced into having a child, I can understand this delema, but even so this doesn't give you the right to take the babies life. Even if you have to give your life in a chance to save the babies that would be better. Sure it doesn't seem fair but "Greater is he that lay down his life for a friend." This includes babies.

Secondly, the Bible says numerous times to love your neighbor (which is referring to other humans in general) As this seems to be an issue modern "Christians" like to ignore, here are some verses clarifying: Mathew 22:39, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Zacheriah 8:17, Romans 13:9. Whether a baby is fully formed or not, and even if you do not wish to have it, you are to love it. Killing it I find is quite the opposite and against His word. Also, God has a plan for every life on this planet. Even if they do not follow Him, He can use their mestakes for good. Even if you do not want the child, if you think you need to "help God" by killing it, no matter the circomstances, you have NO RIGHT to do so because you will be breaking that commandment given by God. Sure, everyone makes mestakes and everyone breaks his commandments (known as sin) but that does not justify your actions.

Point three is, the child is also considered a gift from God. God gives us the responsibility on raising a child to follow Him. If you want more information on that subject go to this page: http://www.blueletterbible.org/comme...topic=Proverbs and find the commentary about Proverbs 22:5-6.

There is much more I could say about this, but even the little bit I have mentioned purely states that something like abortion is wrong from the view of the Bible. Whether the corrupt minds of the world aprove or not, you stating yourself as a Christian have a responsibility to be an example to others and point to God. (Mathew 5:13-16) This verse I find very important so I will quote it:

Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.

Mat 5:15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.

Mat 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

EDIT: Just a statment to the guy who made the second post. Acording to your perspective and attitue I suspect you don't believe in the Bible? So the defenition of soul from the Bible probably means nothing to you, but here is some info either way. I must correct your statment and say that the sould cannot be destroyed. I do not think I know enough to explain it fully, so I will direct you to this link, it has plenty of information about it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/d...art.cfm?id=102

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

I cannot believe any true Christian would agree with abortion unless their views are twisted. I am a strong Christian myself so I have some opinions on this matter from (hopefuly) a similar perspective.

First off, to clarify, these bodies were given to us by God and He states to be good stewards with what He has given us. I hate it when people say, "Well it is my body and I can do whatever I please with it!" when in reality it was a gift given to be used for His will. If somone was raped and forced into having a child, I can understand this delema, but even so this doesn't give you the right to take the babies life. Even if you have to give your life in a chance to save the babies that would be better. Sure it doesn't seem fair but "Greater is he that lay down his life for a friend." This includes babies.

Secondly, the Bible says numerous times to love your neighbor (which is referring to other humans in general) As this seems to be an issue modern "Christians" like to ignore, here are some verses clarifying: Mathew 22:39, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Zacheriah 8:17, Romans 13:9. Whether a baby is fully formed or not, and even if you do not wish to have it, you are to love it. Killing it I find is quite the opposite and against His word. Also, God has a plan for every life on this planet. Even if they do not follow Him, He can use their mestakes for good. Even if you do not want the child, if you think you need to "help God" by killing it, no matter the circomstances, you have NO RIGHT to do so because you will be breaking that commandment given by God. Sure, everyone makes mestakes and everyone breaks his commandments (known as sin) but that does not justify your actions.

Point three is, the child is also considered a gift from God. God gives us the responsibility on raising a child to follow Him. If you want more information on that subject go to this page: http://www.blueletterbible.org/comme...topic=Proverbs and find the commentary about Proverbs 22:5-6.

There is much more I could say about this, but even the little bit I have mentioned purely states that something like abortion is wrong from the view of the Bible. Whether the corrupt minds of the world aprove or not, you stating yourself as a Christian have a responsibility to be an example to others and point to God. (Mathew 5:13-16) This verse I find very important so I will quote it:


EDIT: Just a statment to the guy who made the second post. Acording to your perspective and attitue I suspect you don't believe in the Bible? So the defenition of soul from the Bible probably means nothing to you, but here is some info either way. I must correct your statment and say that the sould cannot be destroyed. I do not think I know enough to explain it fully, so I will direct you to this link, it has plenty of information about it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/d...art.cfm?id=102

To quote any verse from the bible as if that makes it true, is to fail to understand how reasoning, rationality, and support for an argument work.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

I cannot believe any true Christian would agree with abortion unless their views are twisted. I am a strong Christian myself so I have some opinions on this matter from (hopefuly) a similar perspective.

That is a very biased comment. Christians follow Jesus Christ, and believe he had died for our sins(that would be me). There are Christians who do not take the bible word for word(that would be me). I don't care if you call me twisted. I respect your views, but that was out of line. Is there really such a thing as a True Christian? There are many different branches of Christianity, not just one. This is something I get annoyed about how some people think there is only one true way.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

If somone was raped and forced into having a child, I can understand this delema, but even so this doesn't give you the right to take the babies life.

I don't know if you looked back at the other posts, but I'll say it anyway. If abortions become illegal, then how would the girls who got pregnant feel? There have been girls who keep it a secret, and try to have an abortion themselves. They end up dying. Two children have died, not one, but TWO! There has to be a line at some point where an abortion should be allowed, or else certain little girls/teenagers will die. Not only the girls who die, but also the fetus that's inside their womb. It would cause more problems.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

I hate it when people say, "Well it is my body and I can do whatever I please with it!"

This is America. Not everyone here is a Christian. There are atheists here, and others, etc. You can't force them to do what you think. In the constitution, we have a rule where it has to be a separation of church and state. It has to be fair for everyone.

In my opinion abortion should be a choice. If you were pregnant you can stay that way because of your beliefs. Though, others who are pregnant may not want to do that way because their views are different. You may say, they have created the greatest sin of all time, and will go to hell. To them, they will not believe that at all.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

Secondly, the Bible says numerous times to love your neighbor (which is referring to other humans in general) As this seems to be an issue modern "Christians" like to ignore, here are some verses clarifying: Mathew 22:39, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Zacheriah 8:17, Romans 13:9. Whether a baby is fully formed or not, and even if you do not wish to have it, you are to love it. Killing it I find is quite the opposite and against His word. Also, God has a plan for every life on this planet. Even if they do not follow Him, He can use their mestakes for good. Even if you do not want the child, if you think you need to "help God" by killing it, no matter the circomstances, you have NO RIGHT to do so because you will be breaking that commandment given by God. Sure, everyone makes mestakes and everyone breaks his commandments (known as sin) but that does not justify your actions.

I do not take the bible word for word/literally. One person may read it, and say it means this way, while others will say it means another way.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

Point three is, the child is also considered a gift from God. God gives us the responsibility on raising a child to follow Him.

I'll tell you what this means to me. When one truly desires to have a child, that desire is love. God in the bible has been mentioned numerous times as love. So the gift of God is really the love that God gave to the person who desired for the child, the love. They raise that child, and teach him/her about the love God had shown them. They are to help the child throughout their life, and care for him/her. Like the way God would of done it.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

There is much more I could say about this, but even the little bit I have mentioned purely states that something like abortion is wrong from the view of the Bible. Whether the corrupt minds of the world aprove or not, you stating yourself as a Christian have a responsibility to be an example to others and point to God. (Mathew 5:13-16)

Your views are different than what others may perceive it as. You added in the Bible, which is not a good reason when it comes to other people's views, or during situations like these. I am a Christian, but I do not force religion on others, nor will I break rules, or sneak in a way to make a law that will cause more problems to people's lives (aka. death). Yes, I am being a Christian. I believe I am doing the right thing. I do not take the bible literally. I believe there is more to it than just words on paper. You might just say right now that I'm going to hell. Funny thing is, I do not believe there is one.

I respect your views, and I understand your side. Why not try to understand how they could affect a single person's life to a nation with a diversity of people. If you believe that the right thing is to take away abortions because of what someone wrote, then go ahead. Though, at least try to find a better way as to solve the problem. If the abortions were taken away, what will be replaced inside? Will there be more medical help? Is there a way to replace it? Can you think of one? How much money would be spent if abortions were to be illegal? Do you know ways for teenage girls to graduate high school, and take care of a kid, go to college, and get a job by themselves without spending thousands and thousands upon thousands of dollars? What are their grades like while they were pregnant, how are some ways for it to get better? What are you going to do with the girls whose bodies are not mature for a pregnancy? How are you going to solve these problems? There are many more than just that. I know people keep saying the Bible is always the answer, but how can it when it comes to this?

If you are to reply back, please answer these questions, and do not question my beliefs. They are mine, and my mind will always stay close on it. I am open to hearing what one would say about these questions that I have asked. Please be honest with your next reply, do not make it up. I'm not saying you were not honest, it is just I have friends who made up information. Please don't be a liar. If you do lie, you made a sin.

I cannot believe any true Christian would agree

It's funny how everyone believes that they themselves are true followers of [insert religion here] and how anyone who differs from this is not a "true" believer.

Oh, question: why do you believe in Christianity and not countless other religions?
obviously indoctrination...

I hate it when people say, "Well it is my body and I can do whatever I please with it!"

I hate it when extremist nutcases take it upon themselves to care what other people do in their own private lives, which are none of their business.

So you're essentially saying, you hate freedom? That if you had the power you would remove this right to control one's body from others because they might deviate from your beliefs?

Secondly, the Bible says numerous times to love your neighbor (which is referring to other humans in general)

Ironic how so much violence is done in the name of religion. Such as those that invade countries because they hear voices in their head telling them, or those that murder physicians that allow women to have a choice with what to do with their bodies. But of course, I forgot, they're not 'true Christians' (but say the same about you).

Also, God has a plan for every life on this planet.

Fuck you. Yes, your God causes untold agnony and suffering to arbitrary people as part of his plan. Even if that were true, how that makes him worthy of praise and not revulsion... the wonders of the religious mindset.

Bonus point: quoting scripture won't do you much good here, seeing as many people in this forum do not believe in it one bit.

respect your views

You shouldn't respect anyone who doesn't respect others views ... and certainly doesn't respect people's fundamental right to control their body. This person has essentially said, "You know what I hate? Freedom".

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

EDIT: Just a statment to the guy who made the second post. Acording to your perspective and attitue I suspect you don't believe in the Bible? So the defenition of soul from the Bible probably means nothing to you, but here is some info either way. I must correct your statment and say that the sould cannot be destroyed. I do not think I know enough to explain it fully, so I will direct you to this link, it has plenty of information about it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/d...art.cfm?id=102

That was a mistake on my part. By killing a soul, I obviously meant killing its vessel, or releasing it, or whatever way you'd put it.

I believe the site you linked has been proven time on time, to lie or use either way faulty arguments. Judging the way you linked it, you're probably not completely immersed with it, but I suggest you be a bit skeptical when browsing it.

Oh and yeah, I don't believe in the Bible (I'm an atheist), though I agree that some scriptures can be helpfull and good motivators. That however does not make up for all the bad stuff in it. The way you quoted the Bible and rambled on about how you're only a true christian if you follow those lines, was quite intriguing though. Many people would probably want to ask you some questions regarding other parts and scriptures in the Bible and if they also are criteria for being a christian. I'm sure you can imagine what I'm thinking of.

NOTE: Just saying before, I have to make this quick because I have to leave for church, I will look up references (not like anyone cares) when I get back and post them.

Huh boy, to much to say and so little time.

I will just mention some main points I suppose.

First off, when I say "true Christian" I suppose that is a bad choice of words... When I say that I am reffering to a Christian that actually tries to follow the Bible. I am not reffering to this perfect Christian, or a strong Christian, just somone who tries to do so. I simply claim that I am a "true Christian" because I attempt to follow His word.

Secondly my post's Christian views were directed mostly at the topic starter because she stated that she was a Christian. I honestly didn't think (and I was right) that anyone else would give a crap for what I said.

@ Sandform: Heh, you make me chuckle... I quote the Bible verse by verse because I believe it is true, you may not and I wont argue on that point. But for me it is true and I try to folow it. I also once read a book on how our logic in general can be very flawed and dependant on how we are raised. So who can say that we should each live by doing everything exactly logical? I prefer going for moral.

@Sirenity Yes, there are many branches in every religion, the problem is that every one has something wrong in it. NONE of them are completely true, I am not stating that the branch I believe in is perfect, though I do hope so. But as for your following the Bible, I believe it states that God prefers somone completely following Him, or not following Him at all (with at least the chance to convert) but if you are sitting on the fence (in otherwards half-heartedly following Him etc) He will "Spew you from His mouth." Yes I will find a reference when I get back. Since you said you don't take the entire Bible to heart you can choose not to believe this or whatever, I am just here to state it you can do what you want with the knowledge.

As to your second reply you should re-read the end of my first point on my first post.

Your third point is interesting. It makes me sad on how a country founded on God's principles could go so far astray. Remember that if something is fair, it doesn't mean it it right or just. People in the U.S. have been given pleanty of chances to follow God, it is their choice not too. Even though they have chosen not too, this doesn't excuse their behaviours.

As to your fourth quote, I think those verses are prety streight forward and can't be translated much differently. "Love your neighbor" is a prety easy-to-understand statement. And if you think it is a matter of what "neighbor" is supposed to mean and don't believe my above defenition, then isn't a neighbor somone who lives close to you? I would say a baby can't get any closer.

Fifth quote, WHAT? Well then, if love is so important why can't you love your neighbor just as much?

Anyway, I am sorry for the quick response I am being rushed out the door, maybe I can edit it when I get back. (We are leaving to a weding afterwards, don't know how much time I will have)

one last answer goes to Photolysis. Your first question, why did I choose this "religion"? It is something called faith, believe in what you cannot see. I simply have faith that God is real, He loves me, and that the Bible is his word like He stated. That is why I believe. Along the years He has been proven more and more real to me so my faith strengthens. You may think that is bogus, but you don't decide what I believe so I am fine with that.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

It makes me sad on how a country founded on God's principles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

@ Sandform: Heh, you make me chuckle... I quote the Bible verse by verse because I believe it is true, you may not and I wont argue on that point. But for me it is true and I try to folow it. I also once read a book on how our logic in general can be very flawed and dependant on how we are raised. So who can say that we should each live by doing everything exactly logical? I prefer going for moral.

Don't be foolish, rationality is how we create morals.


Also I think InsaneKid deserves one of those adjective troll is adjective pics.

I understand you are heading out to church, but I did state not to reply back to my beliefs. When you get back, I want you to answer these questions that I have asked in my second to last paragraph. I do know what love your neighbor means, but that does not answer these questions. I believe in moral attitudes. Define love for me in your own words. Do not say that love is only love of God when you do not try to think what love itself could mean. Love is nourishing, caring, and understanding. Love your neighbor no matter who it is, and to care, and understand them. Respect your neighbor, and their views. You can't just say love your neighbor, if you don't stop to think what love means. Meaning that when it comes to life and death, would you force a law on those girls who will not be able to speak of their views? Their rights will be taken away, and they could possibly die. To me, that is immoral no matter how many times the Bible has said it to be.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

NOTE: Just saying before, I have to make this quick because I have to leave for church, I will look up references (not like anyone cares) when I get back and post them.

Huh boy, to much to say and so little time.

I will just mention some main points I suppose.

First off, when I say "true Christian" I suppose that is a bad choice of words... When I say that I am reffering to a Christian that actually tries to follow the Bible. I am not reffering to this perfect Christian, or a strong Christian, just somone who tries to do so. I simply claim that I am a "true Christian" because I attempt to follow His word.

Secondly my post's Christian views were directed mostly at the topic starter because she stated that she was a Christian. I honestly didn't think (and I was right) that anyone else would give a crap for what I said.

@ Sandform: Heh, you make me chuckle... I quote the Bible verse by verse because I believe it is true, you may not and I wont argue on that point. But for me it is true and I try to folow it. I also once read a book on how our logic in general can be very flawed and dependant on how we are raised. So who can say that we should each live by doing everything exactly logical? I prefer going for moral.

@Sirenity Yes, there are many branches in every religion, the problem is that every one has something wrong in it. NONE of them are completely true, I am not stating that the branch I believe in is perfect, though I do hope so. But as for your following the Bible, I believe it states that God prefers somone completely following Him, or not following Him at all (with at least the chance to convert) but if you are sitting on the fence (in otherwards half-heartedly following Him etc) He will "Spew you from His mouth." Yes I will find a reference when I get back. Since you said you don't take the entire Bible to heart you can choose not to believe this or whatever, I am just here to state it you can do what you want with the knowledge.

As to your second reply you should re-read the end of my first point on my first post.

Your third point is interesting. It makes me sad on how a country founded on God's principles could go so far astray. Remember that if something is fair, it doesn't mean it it right or just. People in the U.S. have been given pleanty of chances to follow God, it is their choice not too. Even though they have chosen not too, this doesn't excuse their behaviours.

As to your fourth quote, I think those verses are prety streight forward and can't be translated much differently. "Love your neighbor" is a prety easy-to-understand statement. And if you think it is a matter of what "neighbor" is supposed to mean and don't believe my above defenition, then isn't a neighbor somone who lives close to you? I would say a baby can't get any closer.

Fifth quote, WHAT? Well then, if love is so important why can't you love your neighbor just as much?

Anyway, I am sorry for the quick response I am being rushed out the door, maybe I can edit it when I get back. (We are leaving to a weding afterwards, don't know how much time I will have)

one last answer goes to Photolysis. Your first question, why did I choose this "religion"? It is something called faith, believe in what you cannot see. I simply have faith that God is real, He loves me, and that the Bible is his word like He stated. That is why I believe. Along the years He has been proven more and more real to me so my faith strengthens. You may think that is bogus, but you don't decide what I believe so I am fine with that.

Ahh, 17 is a good age. You're just about to graduate highschool, go on to college, get away from your parents and family and your home church. It's a time when you start thinking for yourself and examining the world around you while taking off the rosy-religion glasses. 17 is when I deconverted, and you remind me A LOT of myself at that age: extremely strong fundie Christian, unshakable faith. Luckily I had a crisis of faith that led me to start questioning what I was raised to believe so whole-heartedly. I hope that you will also start examining faith and the things you were raised to believe as primordial truths.

Originally Posted by Serenity Dragon

I wanna see if I can beat them up with this info . The fact that they lied about so much, makes me annoyed. I'm gonna tell them this stuff, and see what they'll say about it. I know they'd probably never change their mind. I think they are closed off, but maybe I can just have them think about it for one moment. Just a moment, have them think... maybe I should rethink this?

I'll post back what they say.

Obviously they're pushing their beliefs on you. However, I'm not so sure that they are purposely lying to you. Christians are never very good when it comes to stating science correctly. They were probably lied to themselves by propaganda and thought that it was true.

Your first question, why did I choose this "religion"? It is something called faith, believe in what you cannot see. I simply have faith that God is real, He loves me, and that the Bible is his word like He stated. That is why I believe. Along the years He has been proven more and more real to me so my faith strengthens. You may think that is bogus, but you don't decide what I believe so I am fine with that.

That doesn't answer the question. You fail to explain why you accept the bible, but reject the Koran. The Book of Mormon. Why you accept Christianity, but reject Islam, Scientology, Buddhism, Hinduism.

In other words, on what basis do you deem Christianity to be correct and why are all the other religions wrong despite the 'evidence' for them being essentially identical?

It makes me sad on how a country founded on God's principles

Do some research you ignorant creatin. You don't even know the principles on which the US was founded? Secularism and FREEDOM. Less time spreading religious propaganda, more time spent obtaining knowledge from reputable sources.

Though you're certainly right on how it's done astray, seeing as the general US population has a "believe in Christianity or else" mentality, and is one of the most religious states in the world. The founding fathers of the US are probably turning in their graves.

Christians are never very good when it comes to stating science correctly.

Most of the time it's because they have little or no understanding, and simply parrot the 'science' from an authority figure who also has little or no understanding, or deliberately bastardises the subject like most Christian evangelicalists in the US.

Such kind words. You know people, it is possible to have a debate and/or exchange of ideas without trying to bash the other persons skull. I have been trying my hardest to avoid pointing fingers, my apologies if it comes across otherwise. Let's try to be civil hm?

Ok back to the topic.

First off, about the U.S. if you didn't know the United States was created because of a desire for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Yes, people like to drop out the first word. Do a little research on the founding fathers and some time before. I am not here to debate about that however so this is the end of that discussion for me.

Second, Sandform, we have something called a concious that is built into us. No matter where we are raised, when we are raised, or who we were raised by, if you go out and kill some innocent guy walking on the street you will feel guilt. It is possible to ignore your concious, or "block" your concious as I like to say it, after some time but we all start out with one. So no, I don't think you are correct.

Third, Sirenity, to start off, I am not saying anything about your beliefs in general. The main reason I commented on this topic is because of your beliefs stated under the title of Christian, when honestly I don't know how you can call yourself one. (I am not trying to be a jerk I will explain) I say this because 1. you say you don't believe in the whole Bible, it is like reading only a few pages of a novel then declaring to everyone that you have read the book and know what it is about. 2. It seems to me that you treat Christianity as "just another religion" instead of actual truth. (Except for Jesus dieing for you, but if you don't believe in Hell what was the point of that?)

Now to try and answer your questions, though you say if we take away abortions what about the people getting raped, non-wanted pregnancies, etc because I think it is right we will have the problems etc etc. Well yes, I think we should get rid of abortions because it is wrong. (As I explained above why I think so) But if you think about it, if people DID THE RIGHT THING and wouldn't rape people and or have sex unless they wanted a child we wouldn't have those problems! Of course we are human and it is impossible to have a perfect world. There WILL be rapers, unwanted pregnancies and such. But I am sure you have heard the popular saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right!" and I have to agree. God says we reap what we sow. In other words, if we sin we will recieve the consequences, if we do good we will recieve the rewards. He doesn't expect us to be perfect, that is why He sent Jesus. He forgives us, but it doesn't mean we WON'T still see the consequences. If some foolish teenager goes and gets herself pregnant, well she is going to have to deal with the consequences. If she is married then it is the husbands responsibility to take care of her so then it would be both their responsibility. (But personaly I find it foolish to get married that young either way)

Now talking to Needcatscan, I am sorry to hear that you have fallen like you did. I pray to God that I will not go down a similar road. If I do, I will willingly provide you guys with a laugh and tell you so. It would be the least I deserve. But one note, you say you had "unshakeable faith" aparently you were wrong because it has failed you. Though God states that if you read the Bible and pray every day then your faith will grow and strengthen. Tell me honestly, were you doing that when you were going through tough times?

Last but not least, Photolysis. Perhaps I didn't explain well enough, I chose Christianity because I believed it to be the CORRECT "religion" as you call it. If I did choose the Koran or something else, you would have asked the same. As to your second statment perhaps you should do some research as well of the founding fathers and some years before.
Also, since you seem so bent on requiring evidence, feel free to watch the video "Exodus Revieled" (spelling?) where they found plenty of proof relating to the time of Moses. I will let you check it out yourself. Another one is Bible v.s. Mormon. Yes it is about proving the Mormon religion incorrect, but it still contains quite a bit of archeological evidence.

Anyway, you guys seem bent on ignoring my every word so I am done with the subject. I have had my say and I will let you guy decide what to do with it. However, if people are actually INTERESTED in what I say and want to have a civil discussion or exchange of ideas, send me a PM.

P.S. I forgot to mention. I talked to my mom about this topic a bit and she mentioned to me that a little over a month ago there was a girl at the age of 9 that had a baby. They both lived. She said she wasn't supposed to be developed enough to even have a child yet she did and they are both fine.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

you say you don't believe in the whole Bible, it is like reading only a few pages of a novel then declaring to everyone that you have read the book and know what it is about.

No it's not. It's like reading a book on morals that tells you to stone people that aren't like you and then deciding that that certain part of the book is morally incorrect while still agreeing with other moral ideas presented in the book.

You can read through an entire book and not agree with every point in it while still having read through the entire book.

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

If people DID THE RIGHT THING... and didn't have sex unless they wanted a child we wouldn't have those problems!

There is nothing morally wrong with having consenting sex using birth control. Why do you think it is wrong?

Originally Posted by -InsaneKid-

Anyway, you guys seem bent on ignoring my every word so I am done with the subject. I have had my say and I will let you guy decide what to do with it. However, if people are actually INTERESTED in what I say and want to have a civil discussion or exchange of ideas, send me a PM.

None of us have been ignoring you. In fact, I'm pretty sure you're the most responded to person in this thread.

Running away from criticism just makes that criticism stronger.