An article by PBS about Metaphysics.

**DeathCell** · 11-15-2008 07:30 PM

http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/ge...taph-body.html

Metaphysical

Derived from the Greek meta ta physika ("after the things of nature"); referring to an idea, doctrine, or posited reality outside of human sense perception. In modern philosophical terminology, metaphysics refers to the studies of what cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality. Areas of metaphysical studies include ontology, cosmology, and often, epistemology.

Metaphysical - Longer definition: Metaphysics is a type of philosophy or study that uses broad concepts to help define reality and our understanding of it. Metaphysical studies generally seek to explain inherent or universal elements of reality which are not easily discovered or experienced in our everyday life. As such, it is concerned with explaining the features of reality that exist beyond the physical world and our immediate senses. Metaphysics, therefore, uses logic based on the meaning of human terms, rather than on a logic tied to human sense perception of the objective world. Metaphysics might include the study of the nature of the human mind, the definition and meaning of existence, or the nature of space, time, and/or causality.

The origin of philosophy, beginning with the Pre-Socratics, was metaphysical in nature. For example, the philosopher Plotinus held that the reason in the world and in the rational human mind is only a reflection of a more universal and perfect reality beyond our limited human reason. He termed this ordering power in the universe "God."

Metaphysical ideas, because they are not based on direct experience with material reality, are often in conflict with the modern sciences. Beginning with the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution, experiments with, and observations of, the world became the yardsticks for measuring truth and reality. Therefore, our contemporary valuation of scientific knowledge over other forms of knowledge helps explain the controversy and skepticism concerning metaphysical claims, which are considered unverifiable by modern science.

In matters of religion, the problem of validating metaphysical claims is most readily seen in all of the "proofs" for the existence of God. Like trying to prove the existence of a "soul" or "spirit" in the human, attempts to scientifically prove the existence of God and other nonobjective, nonhuman realities is seemingly impossible. The difficulty arises out of the attempt to scientifically study and objectify something which, by its very nature, cannot become an object of our scientific studies. This reigning belief that everything can be explained scientifically in terms of natural causes - referred to as naturalism - compels many to think that only what is seen or sensed, only what can be hypothesized and tested can be true, and therefore, meaningful to us as humans.

Recently, however, even as metaphysics has come under attack for its apparent lack of access to real knowledge, so has science begun to have its own difficulties in claiming absolute knowledge. Continual developments in our understanding of the human thought process reveals that science cannot solely be relied upon to explain reality, for the human mind cannot be seen as simply a mirror of the natural world. For example, since the act of scientific observation itself tends to produce the reality it hopes to explain, the so-called "truths" of science cannot be considered as final or objective. This fact manifests itself over and over again, as scientific truths and laws continue to break down or yield to new and better explanations of reality. What becomes apparent, therefore, is that the process of human interpretation in the sciences, as elsewhere, is both variable and relative to the observer's viewpoint.

Under the skeptical analyses of the philosophical movements known as postmodernism and deconstructionism, all of these facts have resulted in a modern repudiation of both metaphysics and science. Their criticisms are based on the cultural and historical relativity of all knowledge. These two philosophical "schools" deny any existence at all of an objective or universal knowledge. Thus, metaphysical claims stand today between the absolutist claims of science (scientism) and the complete relativism of postmodernism and deconstructionism.

If anyone sees this that can, please move it to Philosophy. Probably fits their better.

**hungrymanz** · 11-15-2008 08:09 PM

No, this looks like some mystical spirituality BS, it should be kept here where it can be made fun of.

**DeathCell** · 11-15-2008 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by hungrymanz

No, this looks like some mystical spirituality BS, it should be kept here where it can be made fun of.

I forgot unless a theory has been created then it's not true or a possibility. Science would run into a wall of not discovering anything, if everyone was as close-minded as some.

I know all those philosophers were all just nuts, you denounce half of the things great man said while buying into the other half vehemently.

Pythagoras believed/discovered a lot more than just algebra. One example

**Xei** · 11-15-2008 11:04 PM

Pythagoras didn't do algerbra really, he was much more of a geometer. Also it's doubtful that he did many of the things he was supposed to. And also he ran a sort of secretive cult which was really detrimental to knowledge.

I disagree that trying to scientifically study the mind is like trying to scientifically study God, for a few reasons.

Firstly; that is a dualistic assertion. It may well be the case that the mind can be studied via science, but neuroscience is still in its embryonic stages.

Secondly; God may not be real. However, most Gods are actually scientifically testable, because God is supposed to have a physical presence (unlike the dualistic mind). For example, God is supposed to answer prayers. This has been studied scientifically, and the evidence shows that praying does not have any statistically significant (ie any) effect.

I do however believe in the virtues of metaphysics. I think that logical deduction is one half of the total of viable methods we possess for determining the truth: the other is the scientific method; empirical observation and explanation.

It is, for example, a metaphysical deduction that there are a multitude of universes.

Mathematics can also be said to be metaphysical.

**DeathCell** · 11-17-2008 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Pythagoras didn't do algerbra really, he was much more of a geometer. Also it's doubtful that he did many of the things he was supposed to. And also he ran a sort of secretive cult which was really detrimental to knowledge.

I disagree that trying to scientifically study the mind is like trying to scientifically study God, for a few reasons.

Firstly; that is a dualistic assertion. It may well be the case that the mind can be studied via science, but neuroscience is still in its embryonic stages.

Secondly; God may not be real. However, most Gods are actually scientifically testable, because God is supposed to have a physical presence (unlike the dualistic mind). For example, God is supposed to answer prayers. This has been studied scientifically, and the evidence shows that praying does not have any statistically significant (ie any) effect.

I do however believe in the virtues of metaphysics. I think that logical deduction is one half of the total of viable methods we possess for determining the truth: the other is the scientific method; empirical observation and explanation.

It is, for example, a metaphysical deduction that there are a multitude of universes.

Mathematics can also be said to be metaphysical.

How does one exactly run a prayer experiment?

How does one know what prayers would be answered?
Does one think prayers for items would be answered.

I find it hard to believe an expirement involving prayer would be very accurate....

If a god did in fact exist making him all powerful how well would he respond to a prayer expirement.

Just saying.

**Xei** · 11-18-2008 12:06 AM

Uh it's very easy...

You take a group of people who want something to happen.

You split them into those who pray and those who do not.

Then you record the proportions of each group who got what they wanted.

With very large samples this becomes very accurate. The proportions are always the same, which demonstrates that prayer has no effect.

**DeathCell** · 11-18-2008 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Uh it's very easy...

You take a group of people who want something to happen.

You split them into those who pray and those who do not.

Then you record the proportions of each group who got what they wanted.

With very large samples this becomes very accurate. The proportions are always the same, which demonstrates that prayer has no effect.

Not my opinion, but an opinion.
If you were to take prayer to the way it's viewed by many...

What kind of prayers were made? Because god isn't viewed to just answer pointless prayers just for personal gain..

And if prayers are to be taken the literal way, a petition to God.. Why would god go along with an experiment. He would choose what prayers to answer on a case by case basis would he not?
God is an impossible thing to test for.. Is my point.

**Xei** · 11-18-2008 07:52 PM

I believe the biggest one was done by Harvard about heart transplants.

God is a very easy thing to test for; at least most conceptions of him. That is my point.

**DeathCell** · 11-19-2008 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

I believe the biggest one was done by Harvard about heart transplants.

God is a very easy thing to test for; at least most conceptions of him. That is my point.

An all powerful being, but since you don't believe in an existence of one I can see how you think it would be easy to test for...

But I'm pretty sure anyone with belief in a God would find that ridiculous..

**Xei** · 11-20-2008 12:57 AM

Why? If your God's supposed to answer prayers and he doesn't, then that God doesn't exist. It's not exactly subtle logic.

**TimeStopper** · 11-20-2008 01:09 AM

Yeah seriously, God is supposed to be at least somewhat loving according to the Bible. So why would he hide when he can easily reveal himself. Why the hell would he feel so insulted to do a simple test? He'll appear in bread, but not in experiments?

On the other hand, he may not have any interest with us, but that's just an argument for agnosticism.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

But I'm pretty sure anyone with belief in a God would find that ridiculous..

Just a rationalization, to hide from reality.

**DeathCell** · 11-20-2008 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Why? If your God's supposed to answer prayers and he doesn't, then that God doesn't exist. It's not exactly subtle logic.

Oh yes and being an all powerful being you'd think he'd answer every single pointless prayer asking for petty things that only help themselves?

...

Just a rationalization, to hide from reality.

Coming from an atheist I'm sure that is what you feel the reason is but maybe they really just believe? That is their reality.

Why the hell would he feel so insulted to do a simple test? He'll appear in bread, but not in experiments?

Why would he have to prove himself to his children?

Especially to people who have no faith in him? Why waste his time? ( I don't believe in the Christian god so..)

Maybe god is really just the all. We are all apart of the all, we all came from the same source after all...(big bang)

There are so many theories, religious and scientific yet no one really knows... And never will.

Yesterdays dreams are tomorrows sighs..

**Xei** · 11-20-2008 10:35 PM

Oh yes and being an all powerful being you'd think he'd answer every single pointless prayer asking for petty things that only help themselves?

Praying for somebody else to recieve a heart transplant is 'a petty thing that only helps themselves'??

It's sounding terribly like you're in denial.

**DeathCell** · 11-21-2008 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Praying for somebody else to recieve a heart transplant is 'a petty thing that only helps themselves'??

It's sounding terribly like you're in denial.

Oh a heart transplant I see.. So than obviously prayer doesn't work because this experiment said so. I mean I guess we could all just pray for eternal life under that idea and life forever. Death is a part of life, no amount of prayer can automatically save someone...

Maybe god viewed those people as having reached the end of their life, like I said... He'd be all powerful with the decision in his hand.. If you so choose to believe in that..

**Xei** · 11-22-2008 12:32 PM

What, all of them?

What sort of stuff are you allowed to pray for then?

And when people do recieve heart transplants, is that not an act of God? By your logic, that must happen when God decides that it isn't actually their time yet.

**really** · 11-22-2008 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

With very large samples this becomes very accurate. The proportions are always the same, which demonstrates that prayer has no effect.

What is prayer?

**Xei** · 11-22-2008 05:28 PM

It's when you ask God to do something.

Didn't you know?

**really** · 11-22-2008 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

It's when you ask God to do something.

Didn't you know?

Yes, I do. I was seeing if you did. How you understand "prayer" will depend on how you pray, and how you perceive the prayer, the praying, and the experimental results to do with all these.

Edit: If everybody prayed like that, basically there'd be no effect. You cannot test prayers like that.

**Xei** · 11-22-2008 05:54 PM

Why not?

**really** · 11-22-2008 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Why not?

A small percentage of the population use prayer properly. There is little chance you can "test" somebody praying, also. What do you do, gather a group of people together and ask them to start praying at once?

It is a matter of intention and compassionate will.

Is it not to ask for things, selfishly. "Please God, make me pass the test.", "Please God, make her love me." God does not do everything without your input; take responsibility. It is not to ask God to do anything, God can only offer blessings. Show a sign in the universe, that you intend for the highest good. Bless the world yourself, after all, God created you. Intend peace.

It is quite hard to explain, you have read more between the lines of things. It's silly to pray for trivial matters, and karma does come into it. It is helpful to know how the ego is blind in its judgments.

**Xei** · 11-22-2008 06:22 PM

Have you not read this page? It wasn't selfish, nor was it trivial.

**DeathCell** · 11-22-2008 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Have you not read this page? It wasn't selfish, nor was it trivial.

Preserving life that is destined for death could be viewed as selfish.(Eww sounds kind of cold but..)

Clinging desperately to life at the end of your cycle, when death is unavoidable. It's just another part of life.

Birth Life Death

Some sadly are forced to leave us under less than wonderful circumstances..

**really** · 11-23-2008 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Xei

Have you not read this page? It wasn't selfish, nor was it trivial.

I was replying to your idea of a prayer experiment.

**TimeStopper** · 11-23-2008 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Preserving life that is destined for death could be viewed as selfish.(Eww sounds kind of cold but..)

Clinging desperately to life at the end of your cycle, when death is unavoidable. It's just another part of life.

Birth Life Death

Some sadly are forced to leave us under less than wonderful circumstances..

In that case prayer is useless. Because god won't do anything.

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