The size of our universe

The size of our universe

Every time I see just how big it is, I just get filled with wonder over how God created this massive space, JUST FOR US! Doesn't it make you just feel so special?

I mean, yeah it doesn't say anything about the massive size of it or anything in the Bible. But it's just so awesome how He created it so big just so we would be able to discover it!

I guess it just kinda sucks that we are never going to be able to expand out there, or discover any other life out there (because obviously, that's not in the Bible)

But hey, how awesome of a God do we have that he created all this extra space, just so we could have some pretty things to look at in the sky? I mean, that's pretty awesome.

Cool pic, don't gotta be an ass though...

It is pretty amazing just how small we are in comparision other objects in the Galaxy. Trying to comprehend how vast the universe itself is is very difficult!


Oh and yeah, it's funny that our perfectly designed universe, or even to be fair, galaxy is so well designed for life that the amount of life contained within is basically an infinitely small percentage. That's good design for you!

CHeck out this video called the powers of 10. The universe not only big expanding outwards, but it's also "big" going inwards and smaller.

http://www.videosift.com/video/IBM-P...-science-video

Yeah the Powers of 10 video in my opinion is easily one of the most awe-inspiring films ever made. Great stuff.

Thanks so much for posting this :)

It is utterly utterly mind boggling.
How very very small we are.

Wonderful stuff!

Just goes to show how much more infinitely fascinating and rewarding Astronomy is to say... Astrology.

Science and the human quest to understand our Universe is amazing.

When people ask me why I get frustrated by Religion and Non-Scientific thinking... it's because its things like this, these images... that are REAL... and they have been revealed to us through Science. How much more awe inspiring they are than religious thinking and new age ramblings. That is why. Because reality is so much more fantastic than the crazy ramblings of the world religions.

Divine, isn't it? Divine, aren't we all?

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Originally Posted by really

Divine, isn't it? Divine, aren't we all?

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No.
Divine means "eminating from God"
I assume you are hinting at that?

Beautiful - yes.
Magnificent - yes.
Awe Inspiring - yes.
Mind boggling - yes.

Divine.... no, not in my opinion. That cheapens it.

Plus let us not forget it was science that bought us these images and knowledge... the very same science that tells us that there is no evidence of a God.

Can't pick and choose. if you shun science then you also shun these images of the wonderful Universe we live in. Only its sad how the religious will use the fruits of science and astronomy as "proof of Gods wonders". I personally find it very Hypocritical.

OP's link wouldn't display for me, but loved the video by The Cusp. It brings to mind the quote,

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

No.
Divine means "eminating from God"
I assume you are hinting at that?

Beautiful - yes.
Magnificent - yes.
Awe Inspiring - yes.
Mind boggling - yes.

Divine.... no, not in my opinion. That cheapens it.

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Well, the core of all beauty, awe and magnificence is Divinity/God, so well done for identifying those qualities already (ignoring "cheapens it").

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Plus let us not forget it was science that bought us these images and knowledge... the very same science that tells us that there is no evidence of a God.

Can't pick and choose. if you shun science then you also shun these images of the wonderful Universe we live in. Only its sad how the religious will use the fruits of science and astronomy as "proof of Gods wonders". I personally find it very Hypocritical.

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There is no reason to ignore or reject science, apart from the situation where it has no power, so lack of scientific evidence of God doesn't really mean anything. The main assumption is that Divinity/God is objective or "out there", when it is rooted in subjectivity as Reality. "Science" as a generality may have brought us these great images, however that doesn't negate their intrinsic beauty. Having said that these images are:

• Beautiful
• Magnificent
• Awe Inspiring
• Mind boggling

Would you go on to say that therefore science is invalid, or that these observations/impressions are invalid after science, or that both science and wonder are valid unto themselves?

Spoiler for duh:

Both are valid in their own paradigm, and while science may seem to negate God, God does not negate science at all.

My rhetorical questions concerning our Divinity stems from a recognition that, essentially we are made of stars, that we are One with God, looking back at ourSelf. With the belief in separation, however, we believe that we are separate from the Universe and each of its parts - the infinite stretch of space, stars and planets. But this ignores our origin, and our Universe as our Body.

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Originally Posted by DreamQueen

OP's link wouldn't display for me

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For some reason my server is having a hissy fit. Will try to fix after work.

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Originally Posted by really

Well, the core of all beauty, awe and magnificence is Divinity/God, so well done for identifying those qualities already (ignoring "cheapens it").

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You really should learn to put "in my opinion" in statements like this.
Your statement shows us nothing other than how you personaly see the world, it tells us nothing else about the universe we inhabit, It is purely opinion. Opinion is great and fascinating, but can you please try and not word it as if you and you alone know the truth. Or give us something other than your personal belief to demonstrate your opinions.

I would go as far as to say you are extrapolating too far.
As far as we know, the core of beauty, awe and magnificence are in fact:
ways in which human psychology processes and experiences its environment.
They are human emotions, they require no God.


And no It is not good enough to say "God created Psychology and the universe"... as you're just expressing belief again, unfounded in anything tangible.

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Originally Posted by really

There is no reason to ignore or reject science, apart from the situation where it has no power, so lack of scientific evidence of God doesn't really mean anything. The main assumption is that Divinity/God is objective or "out there", when it is rooted in subjectivity as Reality. "Science" as a generality may have brought us these great images, however that doesn't negate their intrinsic beauty. Having said that these images are:

• Beautiful
• Magnificent
• Awe Inspiring
• Mind boggling

Would you go on to say that therefore science is invalid, or that these observations/impressions are invalid after science, or that both science and wonder are valid unto themselves?

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No I don't see where you are gettng this conclusion from.
Why should the process of discovering our universe in a way that confirms its validity (science) negate the percived beauty in them? Or why should perciving beauty negate science? There is no foundation for this assumption.
They are not opposed, beauty can be just as much a part of the scientific world view as the religious. I would even say that in my opinion true beauty belongs more so in the realm of science, because it is science that reveals the truths of the universe to us.. only when we know something to be true can our minds be truelly overwhelmed by the awesomeness of it all.

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Originally Posted by really

Both are valid in their own paradigm, and while science may seem to negate God, God does not negate science at all.

My rhetorical questions concerning our Divinity stems from a recognition that, essentially we are made of stars, that we are One with God, looking back at ourSelf. With the belief in separation, however, we believe that we are separate from the Universe and each of its parts - the infinite stretch of space, stars and planets. But this ignores our origin, and our Universe as our Body.

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You make a LOT of unfounded statements.
Being made of Stars does not infer that we are "one with God"
We may well be the universe becoming aware and looking back at itself... but that again does not require a Divinity.

You say: we believe that we are separate from the Universe and each of its parts

Who is this we?
Do you mean the human race? How do YOU know what the human race believe as a whole?
I certainly have never considered myself seperate from the Universe. Which is exactly why I'm an Atheist. I came to terms long ago that being a temporary conscious part of the universe itself was essentially what I observed myself and others as. It required no additional "god" or "soul" or "life after death" it was simply something I could look out into the Universe and observe first hand.

I'd like to challenge your statement on a crucial aspect... that there is in fact no "I" or "We" in the first place to be "seperate from the universe". And that we are observably temporary combinations of processes, always in flux and changing.
So if there is no "I" then how can I be seperate from anything?
I is just a concept. It's a trillion changing processes that appear to be an enduring identity due to our unique perspective. Much like a film appears to move when in reality it is a million different frames.

Once you dispense with the concept of "I" then yes you can say that a human being is a temporary coagulation of processes in and of the universe, that create the illusion of a discreet identity. Those processes will disperse enough upon our death for the illusion to be shattered, but are in truth dispersing all the time, as well as reforming and changing constantly.

What we are made of is inherently tied up with the rest of the ancient (and perhaps eternal) universe. And should remain in one form or another, part of the Universe for the duration of the Universe.

Does this require a Divinity?
Only really If you are using a Pantheist definition of God. Otherwise the world "Universe as a whole" or even "Existence as a whole" (if you want to encompass what may or may not be before, after and outside the Universe itself)

BUT, why use such a loaded term as "God" when "Existence as a whole" and "the Universe" are already so much more straighforward and blatant.

You see it appears we really don't think all that differently.
Our interpretation of existence diverge at the word "God"

I don't like the word, because it is loaded with millenia of opposing ideas. People can lach onto it and distort it.
You may use the word God, and someone may think you both share the same definition, but you do not.

Why not just use the word "All" or say "All that is" then you don't box yourself up with the creationalists or the religious looneys who strap bombs to themselves. The word god glues you to them.

By not using the world God, you become a Philosopher rather than Religious.
It is much more liberating to do away with words that have so many many definitions that they become meaningless.

The difference between a Philosopher and the Religious, in my eyes is,
The former says "What If?" the latter says "This IS."

I think that a lot of people who consider themselves Spiritual are in fact far more inclined to the Philosophical. A philosopher is far more free to explore the possibilities than someone who calls themselves Spritual... as the latter is a much more loaded word, and implys a personal investment.

You can be a Philosophical Atheist... in fact, I'd bet a great deal of Atheists are.

I for example would consider myself currently a Philosophical Agnostic Atheist with a Scientific-Pantheist outlook.

But generally for the sake of simplicity I use the term Atheist.

The choice of words and labels we apply to ourselves, and our lives can either free us or chain us.

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Originally Posted by Rakjavik

The size of our universe

Every time I see just how big it is, I just get filled with wonder over how God created this massive space, JUST FOR US! Doesn't it make you just feel so special?

I mean, yeah it doesn't say anything about the massive size of it or anything in the Bible. But it's just so awesome how He created it so big just so we would be able to discover it!

I guess it just kinda sucks that we are never going to be able to expand out there, or discover any other life out there (because obviously, that's not in the Bible)

But hey, how awesome of a God do we have that he created all this extra space, just so we could have some pretty things to look at in the sky? I mean, that's pretty awesome.

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Really, what's the point? "Ha ha, the most naive interpretation of one text of one wisdom tradition is false--GOTCHA!"

What I don't understand about strict objectivism/materialism is, how does it make sense to look at the universe from the perspective of an outside observer that you insist does not exist?

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

Really, what's the point? "Ha ha, the most naive interpretation of one text of one wisdom tradition is false--GOTCHA!"

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Actually, that was pretty much the point. Religious people think that the human race is the only thing that actually matters in this whole huge universe. That God/Allah created us special and we are actually what matters, and the massive universe is just some kind of afterthought.

I was just attempting to point out the absurdity of that line of thinking.

No, it does not make me small and/or insignificant.
Why not? Because you only look at stuff that is larger than we are - you can do the same thing with the objects we are made of. If the electrons of atoms were populated planets, those poor being wouldn't even know they are PART of us - a truly titanic species SO big you can't even see them.

I feel great - to be a part of it. Don't forget - the universe would NOT be the same universe without you. As a matter of fact, you are very important indeed. Imagine that a single human life can be filled with love, tragedy, death - everything. And yet, we are so small. Awesome, eh?

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Originally Posted by Rakjavik

Actually, that was pretty much the point. Religious people think that the human race is the only thing that actually matters in this whole huge universe. That God/Allah created us special and we are actually what matters, and the massive universe is just some kind of afterthought.

I was just attempting to point out the absurdity of that line of thinking.

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Ah, I see, "Absurd interpretations of religion are absurd." And how does that generalize to "religious people" again?

VY Canis Majoris says FU to our sun. That thing looks like it will wipe out our galaxy if it went super nova...no chance in hell of escaping it. I wish Hubble was good enough to zoom into planets looking for life....imagine an Earth look alike planet? and humans in there...lol.

What is with the Blue star? electromagnetic or something? perhaps all electric, and tons of lightning strikes coming from it.


edit- Could you imagine if VY Canis Majoris was actually a planet, and not a star, and it was looking like Earth? I'd say let's start moving to that planet, and start populating that planet. It would take millions of years to travel around the whole thing by foot, and millions of years by jets. You would need a transport thing to go to different areas...like, transport from 1 place, to another on the planet.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

Ah, I see, "Absurd interpretations of religion are absurd." And how does that generalize to "religious people" again?

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My first post wasn't generalizing "religious people". It was talking about "religious people" that believe god made all that so we can say "oh how pretty".

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Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

I feel great - to be a part of it. Don't forget - the universe would NOT be the same universe without you. As a matter of fact, you are very important indeed. Imagine that a single human life can be filled with love, tragedy, death - everything. And yet, we are so small. Awesome, eh?

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I agree with you. Just because in comparison to the whole universe, we are insignificant, doesn't mean that we are on this planet. Even in this solar system, I would say we are pretty damn significant.

The bible is about the creation of earth. To people back then, our small section of space was the universe. Religion and science do not always compete against each other. The only time it does is when people interpret it in silly ways. If you are a person who believes the bible is made of stories which help people understand the teachings of god, then you have no trouble at all.

Creation screams creator! Who is the divine architect?

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Creation screams creator! Who is the divine architect?

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No it dosn't.

The word creation may scream creator.
But they are just words.

You are seeing the world through a very obvious evolved tool making primate mindset.
Isn't it odd that the very thing that makes human unique among animals on this planet, i.e. our ability to create things, tools etc just so happens to be the very way we imagine the universe to have started!
We invent a being, who, just like ourselves, creates things.
I would imagine an evolved Spider seeing the universe as a giant web spun by a giant spider.


How about... not seeing the universe as a creation, but as a process of interactions.

An apple isn't a "creation" it is a temporary snapshot of a process of an apple tree.

Stop seeing things in such simplistic human egotistical terms.

Oh we humans create things, so we must have been created.
How very very convenient. Almost as convenient as God having a Son.
Something us humans do too... oh, and odd that the gender is male... especially when back when that particular myth was written, men were the important ones.

We humans are so egotistical and self absorbed.

The Universe DOES NOT require a creator.

And if it does, WHO CREATED THE CREATOR?
You see, your argument is flawed on the most basic level.
You can't demand something complex needs a creator, because a creator is something complex itself. Your argument is an argument against itself. And creates an infinite regress.


Please just think things through.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

No it dosn't.

The word creation may scream creator.
But they are just words.

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First of all, take a chill pill. Clam down, relax, don't take everything so serious, especially from me, jackass.

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You are seeing the world through a very obvious evolved tool making primate mindset.

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Arn't we all? It's called the nervous system...

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Isn't it odd that the very thing that makes human unique among animals on this planet, i.e. our ability to create things, tools etc just so happens to be the very way we imagine the universe to have started!
We invent a being, who, just like ourselves, creates things.
I would imagine an evolved Spider seeing the universe as a giant web spun by a giant spider.

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Interesting analogy, I like.

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How about... not seeing the universe as a creation, but as a process of interactions.

An apple isn't a "creation" it is a temporary snapshot of a process of an apple tree.

Stop seeing things in such simplistic human egotistical terms.

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Haha, you are the one telling me what is and is not. You want to get down to the "nitty-gritty"? Nothing is or is not, merely what it appears to be to your nervous system at that point in space and time. Don't tell me to stop thinking in simplistic human egotistical terms when that's all anyone can do, don't be naive...You can only think in ways that make sense to you, you can not get rid of the ego, and we can't help but be human.

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Oh we humans create things, so we must have been created.
How very very convenient. Almost as convenient as God having a Son.
Something us humans do too... oh, and odd that the gender is male... especially when back when that particular myth was written, men were the important ones.

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You sound like a new-born atheist...

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We humans are so egotistical and self absorbed.

The Universe DOES NOT require a creator.

And if it does, WHO CREATED THE CREATOR?
You see, your argument is flawed on the most basic level.
You can't demand something complex needs a creator, because a creator is something complex itself. Your argument is an argument against itself. And creates an infinite regress.

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Yes, yes we are. Maybe the universe requires no creator or maybe it did. I don't like to make an assumptions.

As for who created the creator...Maybe god is the great eye of the universe, opening to see it self for the first time, subjectively though you and I. Maybe not, probably not... who knows? You seem like you have an answer though...

As for my argument...what was I arguing? I was making random ambiguous statements like I usually do.

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Please just think things through.

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Sure thing, bud. Just for you.

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

First of all, take a chill pill. Clam down, relax, don't take everything so serious, especially from me, jackass.

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How rude.

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Originally Posted by DreamQueen

How rude.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

First of all, take a chill pill. Clam down, relax, don't take everything so serious, especially from me, jackass.



Arn't we all? It's called the nervous system...



Interesting analogy, I like.




Haha, you are the one telling me what is and is not. You want to get down to the "nitty-gritty"? Nothing is or is not, merely what it appears to be to your nervous system at that point in space and time. Don't tell me to stop thinking in simplistic human egotistical terms when that's all anyone can do, don't be naive...You can only think in ways that make sense to you, you can not get rid of the ego, and we can't help but be human.



You sound like a new-born atheist...



Yes, yes we are. Maybe the universe requires no creator or maybe it did. I don't like to make an assumptions.

As for who created the creator...Maybe god is the great eye of the universe, opening to see it self for the first time, subjectively though you and I. Maybe not, probably not... who knows? You seem like you have an answer though...

As for my argument...what was I arguing? I was making random ambiguous statements like I usually do.



Sure thing, bud. Just for you.

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For a start... I have no idea who you are... so saying "especially from me"
really means nothing. Do you make a habit of posting things that you don't actually mean? If so stick a smiley at the end of it or something, because as far as that post came across, it seemed just like the kind of serious one liner that a religious nut would say.

I have no idea what the universe is all about. I have no answers.
We could all be brains in Jars for all I know.
Problem is anything that can't be proven is as good as nonsense.
Just a shame that the flavour of nonsense most people choose is God... as the brains in Jars version is much more fun.

I also think we can easily go beyond thinking in simplistic egotistical terms. We did it when we realised the earth wasnt the center of the universe.
All we have to do is be humble and not assume it was all "made for us"

Oh and don't call me Jackass, it's rude.

I say a lot of things I don't mean. Last post wasn't one of them though. As for being rude, I felt you were over reacting and being rude yourself in your original response. Telling me that my thinking is simple, while insinuating yours is not.

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

I say a lot of things I don't mean. Last post wasn't one of them though. As for being rude, I felt you were over reacting and being rude yourself in your original response. Telling me that my thinking is simple, while insinuating yours is not.

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Can't be bothered to argue this.
I've made my point. People can make thier own minds up.

The original picture as an animated GIF:

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpre...e-animated.gif

Nice GIF Spaceexplorer

This video is very similar, you will like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q (WATCH IN HD!)

And this one too, very beautiful, with other galactic and extra-galactic structues (WATCH IN HD!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FwCM...405&feature=iv

You gotta be really nieve to not believe in aliens after watching those videos. 100 billion galaxys is all we know of, the universe just keeps going on, and on, and on. Jesus....is there even an end to it?

And LOL at the first video showing Earth to Canis....so badly OWNED! i wonder if there is a star that puts it to shame, or hell even a planet. man, i wish i knew everything about the universe instead of knowing so little before i die.

I would not be surprised if there was no end to the universe, there is no end to a balloon when you blow it up, it just keeps expanding. It's all 1 space, perhaps the universe is a balloon and just keeps expanding, and is all a circle, like a balloon.

¿ƃuıɯɐǝɹp noʎ ǝɹɐ ˙˙˙˙ʎɐʍ ǝɥʇ ʎq ɥo

˙sı ǝsɹǝʌıun ǝɥʇ ʇsɐʌ ʍoɥ ƃuızɐɯɐ s,ʇı
˙ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıɹɐɥs ɹoɟ s,ʇɐɥʇ ʇuɐıןןıɹq
¡uɐɯ ǝɯosǝʍɐ ʎןןɐǝɹ s,ʇɐɥʇ ʍoʍ

sǝʎ

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You really should learn to put "in my opinion" in statements like this.
Your statement shows us nothing other than how you personaly see the world, it tells us nothing else about the universe we inhabit, It is purely opinion. Opinion is great and fascinating, but can you please try and not word it as if you and you alone know the truth. Or give us something other than your personal belief to demonstrate your opinions.

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But it is not in my opinion! Divinity as reported by Saints, Mystics or spiritual teachers (etc.), has these qualities, and Divinity is the core of All That Is; I.e. All That Exists is Divine. Hence as All is Create by God, eternally.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I would go as far as to say you are extrapolating too far.
As far as we know, the core of beauty, awe and magnificence are in fact:
ways in which human psychology processes and experiences its environment.
They are human emotions, they require no God.

And no It is not good enough to say "God created Psychology and the universe"... as you're just expressing belief again, unfounded in anything tangible.

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Not everything in the subjective realm is an emotion, and neither is what you are attributing emotions to. Especially if the feelings are not temporary.

The core of subjective Reality encompasses all possible Reality, and in this case it is known to be Divine. Subjectivity is not separated from its Source, God, and neither separate from the Universe that has been manifested. Do you not see that the tangible is only known via the intangible?

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

No I don't see where you are gettng this conclusion from.
Why should the process of discovering our universe in a way that confirms its validity (science) negate the percived beauty in them? Or why should perciving beauty negate science? There is no foundation for this assumption.

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That wasn't a conclusion or an assumption. I asked you three rhetorical questions, and you might find that yours are actually in agreement with mine.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You make a LOT of unfounded statements.
Being made of Stars does not infer that we are "one with God"
We may well be the universe becoming aware and looking back at itself... but that again does not require a Divinity.

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Nothing requires Divinity, because it is already an intrinsic Reality. Perhaps your argument stems from the way you picture God, so please show me how you do, and I will explain.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You say: we believe that we are separate from the Universe and each of its parts

Who is this we?

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"We" as in the (average) individuals of mankind.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Do you mean the human race? How do YOU know what the human race believe as a whole?

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Human behavior, activity, thoughts, health and opinions are dominated by belief systems and fields of consciousness. If the belief system is negative, it is not possible to have positive behavior significantly. If the belief system is positive, the behavior is likewise. This is obviously a generalization, but it holds while enlightenment is rare, and while skepticism may be popular. Have you heard of the saying "I'm only human"? There are tendencies in human nature, tendencies of consciousness and beliefs.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I certainly have never considered myself seperate from the Universe. Which is exactly why I'm an Atheist. I came to terms long ago that being a temporary conscious part of the universe itself was essentially what I observed myself and others as. It required no additional "god" or "soul" or "life after death" it was simply something I could look out into the Universe and observe first hand.

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If you have never considered yourself separate, then why can you not understand a unified Reality? Remember that perception is not Reality. Observing the universe temporarily does not negate eternity, nor prove immortality.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I'd like to challenge your statement on a crucial aspect... that there is in fact no "I" or "We" in the first place to be "seperate from the universe". And that we are observably temporary combinations of processes, always in flux and changing.
So if there is no "I" then how can I be seperate from anything?

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Yes, there is no seperate "I", but a Universal "I". This is Oneness. The ego is not the Self.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I is just a concept.

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This really doesn't tell me anything meaningful. We are using hundreds of concepts.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

It's a trillion changing processes that appear to be an enduring identity due to our unique perspective. Much like a film appears to move when in reality it is a million different frames.

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However, do you go on to say that therefore there is no film? It is still possible to refer to it as a whole, a framework, a sequence or singularity. Similarly, there is only One Absolute Reality, yet there are infinite dimensions and variations.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Once you dispense with the concept of "I" then yes you can say that a human being is a temporary coagulation of processes in and of the universe, that create the illusion of a discreet identity. Those processes will disperse enough upon our death for the illusion to be shattered, but are in truth dispersing all the time, as well as reforming and changing constantly.

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You know, in essence you may be agreeing with me, and actually affirming immortality, eternity and God more than you realize it. If the personal self is an illusion, then all that can exist is the impersonal Reality of the Divine Self.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

What we are made of is inherently tied up with the rest of the ancient (and perhaps eternal) universe. And should remain in one form or another, part of the Universe for the duration of the Universe.

Does this require a Divinity?
Only really If you are using a Pantheist definition of God. Otherwise the world "Universe as a whole" or even "Existence as a whole" (if you want to encompass what may or may not be before, after and outside the Universe itself)

BUT, why use such a loaded term as "God" when "Existence as a whole" and "the Universe" are already so much more straighforward and blatant.

You see it appears we really don't think all that differently.
Our interpretation of existence diverge at the word "God"

I don't like the word, because it is loaded with millenia of opposing ideas. People can lach onto it and distort it.
You may use the word God, and someone may think you both share the same definition, but you do not.

Why not just use the word "All" or say "All that is" then you don't box yourself up with the creationalists or the religious looneys who strap bombs to themselves. The word god glues you to them.

By not using the world God, you become a Philosopher rather than Religious.
It is much more liberating to do away with words that have so many many definitions that they become meaningless.

The difference between a Philosopher and the Religious, in my eyes is,
The former says "What If?" the latter says "This IS."

I think that a lot of people who consider themselves Spiritual are in fact far more inclined to the Philosophical. A philosopher is far more free to explore the possibilities than someone who calls themselves Spritual... as the latter is a much more loaded word, and implys a personal investment.

You can be a Philosophical Atheist... in fact, I'd bet a great deal of Atheists are.

I for example would consider myself currently a Philosophical Agnostic Atheist with a Scientific-Pantheist outlook.

But generally for the sake of simplicity I use the term Atheist.

The choice of words and labels we apply to ourselves, and our lives can either free us or chain us.

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I use the God in the spiritual context, wherefrom it originated. Thank you for contemplating this importance. God is All That Is, and beyond. And Divinity is intrinsically what you are describing.

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Originally Posted by Rakjavik

The size of our universe

Every time I see just how big it is, I just get filled with wonder over how God created this massive space, JUST FOR US! Doesn't it make you just feel so special?

I mean, yeah it doesn't say anything about the massive size of it or anything in the Bible. But it's just so awesome how He created it so big just so we would be able to discover it!

I guess it just kinda sucks that we are never going to be able to expand out there, or discover any other life out there (because obviously, that's not in the Bible)

But hey, how awesome of a God do we have that he created all this extra space, just so we could have some pretty things to look at in the sky? I mean, that's pretty awesome.

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Cool stuff. You would like the videos in my sig.

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Originally Posted by really

Perhaps your argument stems from the way you picture God, so please show me how you do, and I will explain.

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I do not picture God.
I think the term is meaningless.

Different religions use it in different ways, different people in the same religion use it to mean different things. It has so many endless meanings that no one is really using it in the same way.

It seems to be basically another word for:

"I don't know what i'm saying or really mean but this word will do for now, and i can kind of chop and change the meaning when things clash with it. But I kind of want to believe in something greater than me, so I have to give it a name, and everyone else is using this word so I will too. But whatever it is it's got something to do with being everything and the cause of everything - thats kind of what most other people mean, so it'll do for me."

It is the ultimate version of the * used when searching, it can basically mean anything you want it to mean.

Yes it's nice to feel like we have answers, but when the answer is just a jumble of undefined nonsense, well... i'd rather just accept I don't know than use the word God.


People who don't use the word God seem to be able to accept that:

~ Life may well have, or in fact is more likely to have no meaning other than what we make of it.

~ I am probably not important in the slightest.

~ I may never know, and am actually most likely not to know, if there is any meaning to the universe.

~ Death is most likely the end of my existence, much the same as the time before I was borne.

~ The universe is so big, that we cant even comprehend how big it is. And we are certainly not the most important part or central to it.


~ Facts that can be verified, and take effort to earn, are more valuable than ideas that make us feel good but have no foundation in reality.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

People who don't use the word God seem to be able to accept that:

~ Life may well have, or in fact is more likely to have no meaning other than what we make of it.

~ I am probably not important in the slightest.

~ I may never know, and am actually most likely not to know, if there is any meaning to the universe.

~ Death is most likely the end of my existence, much the same as the time before I was borne.

~ The universe is so big, that we cant even comprehend how big it is. And we are certainly not the most important part or central to it.


~ Facts that can be verified, and take effort to earn, are more valuable than ideas that make us feel good but have no foundation in reality.

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You know, most of these ^ are basically just hard facts for the ego, and not necessarily would they require a belief in God or not. For example, I'll give you just my own view (I believe in God):

~ Life may well have, or in fact is more likely to have no meaning other than what we make of it.

Yes, however life was already made before we had the chance to judge it. Our makings do not last, because they are far away from ourselves. When one moves inward, one begins to intuit that which lasts forever and holds more importance than to be ascribed a meaning.

~ I am probably not important in the slightest.

I am not important or "better than others" in egoity, however I am Divine as everybody else; as All That Is; One.

~ I may never know, and am actually most likely not to know, if there is any meaning to the universe.

This is true while one is searching for something that does not exist, and/or ignoring that which does exist without question.

~ Death is most likely the end of my existence, much the same as the time before I was borne.

Death is most likely an assumption that one afraid to examine. Coupled with this is the illusion of time; the distortion of memory and perception.

~ The universe is so big, that we cant even comprehend how big it is. And we are certainly not the most important part or central to it.

Yes. The Universe is so big, that it is only more amazing that we exist; that we are part of it all. When I discover who I am, I will discover All That This Is too, because I am part of it All.

~ Facts that can be verified, and take effort to earn, are more valuable than ideas that make us feel good but have no foundation in reality.

Facts only have an objective foundation of realty and may change. However, that which is beyond facts is self-evident and will never change in nature. Reality itself is not a fact, Reality is known by Reality; by Itself.

Ok we've both made our points,
So lets get back on topic....

The Universe... Big isn't it? :P

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok we've both made our points,
So lets get back on topic....

The Universe... Big isn't it? :P

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Fracken huge! I mean come on, in star trek they never got beyond the milky way. It would have taken like 40 years for Captain Janeway to get back to the alpha quadrant at warp 9!

To quote Douglas Adams....

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

the road to the chemist's

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Remind me again what in the world the chemist's is. Unless you meant literally finding a chemist to do some chemistry for you. :P

The universe is huge and amazing. I may be a bit geeky, but it really excites me to think of the possibilities that are out there. But I'm so pissed that I wasn't born 3000 years from now.

It sucks that in our lifetime we are never going to see the colonization of other planets or other intelligent life. But it pisses me off even more that the world is still so involved with themselves and their issues that we can't grasp the bigger picture and actually start exploring these other places.

Not nearly enough of my tax dollars go to NASA!

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Originally Posted by Rakjavik

Remind me again what in the world the chemist's is. Unless you meant literally finding a chemist to do some chemistry for you. :P

The universe is huge and amazing. I may be a bit geeky, but it really excites me to think of the possibilities that are out there. But I'm so pissed that I wasn't born 3000 years from now.

It sucks that in our lifetime we are never going to see the colonization of other planets or other intelligent life. But it pisses me off even more that the world is still so involved with themselves and their issues that we can't grasp the bigger picture and actually start exploring these other places.

Not nearly enough of my tax dollars go to NASA!

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Ah, you'd probably call it a Drug Store.

Oh and I couldn't agree more with what you say :)

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ah, you'd probably call it a Drug Store.

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And in New Zealand we call it a pharmacy :P

It's amazing just how big it is and how people can believe there aren't aliens somewhere in the universe, probably even in the galaxy.

Assuming there is life out there, and assuming one day Hubble will be able to get lenses good enough to zoom into planets and see there is life, and we find some, the moment Hubble is zoomed in shows thousands or millions of years in the past? or the moment it's zoomed in, is the exact moment as "now" is for us? but getting there will take so much time without some kind of light speed device, perhaps using wormholes to travel if that's what they are there for.

Any of that right?

Light takes many years to travel long distances. It takes 4 years to reach us from the nearest star (hence the unit of distance, the lightyear).

If we look at most stars in our galaxy, they are so far away that yes, the image will be thousands of years old.

If you were on board the spaceship you could theoretically travel to any star in a very short time span. However, this would only be relative to yourself. Back home, many hundreds of years could pass.

We could still find life within our own solar system; there could possibly be some on Europa, a moon of Jupiter, for instance, which we could actually take back home and study.

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Originally Posted by Rakjavik

I mean, yeah it doesn't say anything about the massive size of it or anything in the Bible. But it's just so awesome how He created it so big just so we would be able to discover it!

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hmm, I don't think man would be able to explore the ends of the SOLAR SYSTEM before going extinct..............

but I like going into my backyard and indulging in stargazing if I feel particularly uninspired or upset for some reason, helps me realize how much my problems and I are to the rest of the world

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Originally Posted by Rakjavik

Fracken huge! I mean come on, in star trek they never got beyond the milky way. It would have taken like 40 years for Captain Janeway to get back to the alpha quadrant at warp 9!

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Trekkie nerd!!!

Besides, there's no captain other than Captain Pickard :)

And yes, the universe is utterly huge. The 10x vid is great to show that as well.

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Originally Posted by Needcatscan

Captain Pickard :)

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*facepalm*

Picard. Not Pickard.