Thread: believe what you want?

how closely do your beliefs (namely spiritual or religious) coincide with what you want to believe?

I consider the question irrelevant. What is the point in thinking about what you'd like to be true?

I am an atheist, and I would rather have knowledge of a good life after death than be given 10 billion dollars right now.

I didn't always believe in reincarnation. It didn't make any sense to me. And the idea of having to come back to earth again and again and again and again didn't seem fun.

Believing that regardless of how your life was lived that heaven was the reward, was much sweeter and easier to digest. That was what I wanted to believe. And besides, I was raised Roman Catholic, there was no mention of reincarnation.

But I began to believe in reincarnation for various reasons, very slowly over the course of a few years. The belief was hard for me to accept at first, but I did accept it. I really can't go back now, the belief has answered so many questions.

And also, I want to believe that my cat has a unique individual soul. That I can be with Kitty in the next life, and the next life after. But even many spiritual beliefs that say animals have souls, have the tendency to say they only have a group soul. Not an individual soul. I'm still crossing my fingers they're wrong

Whatever beliefs I hold, I hold lightly. I love our world as it is and have a lot of ways of engaging it and existing in it. Sometimes I wish that I could get more caught up in events, more invested in particular ideas and relationships, pursue career and family and all that, but much of the time I'm dumb with wonder at the sheer radiant emptiness of our world of forms. I don't expect that I've ever been anywhere else, or will be.

Convert willingly, or be forcefully assimilated.

A valid question.

I would like to believe that I, along with everyone else, is on a path of spiritual evolution that we can choose to take part in. We would essentially be the beginning of what would become the future creators of other universes. As we'd progress with the creation of our own worlds, we'd then be able to create our own forms of life, and we'd become more proficient at it as we went along, with each form of life possessing its own unique soul, and the cycle would continue. Death, as well as physicality, is only an illusion. We'd come into being in our universe and perhaps other ones in the meantime in order to refine ourselves and grow from the experiences that existence has to offer, until we were developed enough to advance on the next stage of our so called journey as "gods".

Quite frankly, my real desire is to create a fully functional universe that bends exclusively to my will alone. I'd like to be responsible for building my own paradise, piece by piece.

What I do believe in is that our universe had a sentient source. The physical world is an illusion, and death is only the conversion of one state we exist in to another. Beyond that I couldn't offer many details. There's no harm, at least, in "bettering" myself in the meantime.

VERY excellent question.
I think it matters very little what "I" want to believe or what path I want to follow.
I am a person divided.
My most spiritual side I call "Wiccan" (though wrongly). That part of me is very hedonistic, very "earthly" and sexual and yet (paradoxically) incredibly self-destructive and disassociative. It's going with what feels right, relying on intuition to an extreme, and feeling a oneness with all things.
That is the "religion" my nature wishes I would follow. But it would kill me very quickly.

Because the other part of me believes 100% in the Christian God, Jehovah. I believe, 100%, that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe 200% lol that I need to please that God to find true inner peace and happiness.
What I "believe" goes beyond heaven or hell. It's loving God and putting Him first in my life even when my nature rebels. It's knowing that God knows best and that he has given people the guidelines found in the Bible because they are what's best for us. It's following in the footsteps of his Son, though imperfectly.
That life-style means my LIFE, not just my everlasting life.
I don't believe in God because my parents told me to (they weren't religious) or because it's easy (FAR from it), but because I believe with the entirety of my being that I should.

Even though I'm on bad terms with God right now, I love him at the core of who I am and I'm greatly saddened because of the chasm I've created between us.
I wish I could reconcile the division within me but it's just not possible.

My brother said an interesting theory like this.
He said it's possible the sun could be "god" because it keeps humans and plants aluve. Without it there would be no life.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I am an atheist, and I would rather have knowledge of a good life after death than be given 10 billion dollars right now.

I would give up the biggest lotto in the history of the world just to see and know my pets are still here. I could care less if i became broke, and owed millions. It would be a rough life, but the ultimate prize is waiting for me at the end. Which means it was so worth it.

Originally Posted by juroara

And also, I want to believe that my cat has a unique individual soul. That I can be with Kitty in the next life, and the next life after. But even many spiritual beliefs that say animals have souls, have the tendency to say they only have a group soul. Not an individual soul. I'm still crossing my fingers they're wrong

The hell does group soul mean?






As for the OP...logic and rational thinking in todays world is what keeps me away from believing in what i want to believe thanks to DV. I'm like a completly different person from way back when i started posting here. I look at my stuff i wrote and go "WTF!!!!!! retard!!!". I can't believe what i want because it's all fairy tales, and i live in reality where your dreams, your everything is always crushed and you get kicked in the balls when you are down. I would be lieing to myself if i followed something i believe for wanting to believe. These are things you do when you are a child, and when you grow older you realize life sucks.

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

how many people believe what they want to believe? do you take this bias into consideration, in others and in yourself?

personally, I would like to believe that I will cease to exist after I die, become absolutely nothing. but I believe there is some kind of afterlife.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I am an atheist, and I would rather have knowledge of a good life after death than be given 10 billion dollars right now.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

As for the OP...logic and rational thinking in todays world is what keeps me away from believing in what i want to believe thanks to DV. I'm like a completly different person from way back when i started posting here. I look at my stuff i wrote and go "WTF!!!!!! retard!!!". I can't believe what i want because it's all fairy tales, and i live in reality where your dreams, your everything is always crushed and you get kicked in the balls when you are down. I would be lieing to myself if i followed something i believe for wanting to believe. These are things you do when you are a child, and when you grow older you realize life sucks.

What I don't understand is, why be so at odds with reality as it is? Where is the benefit in judging and condemning a world that does not respond to your condemnation? If neither paradise nor oblivion are to be had, hadn't you better learn how to live in this world?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

What I don't understand is, why be so at odds with reality as it is? Where is the benefit in judging and condemning a world that does not respond to your condemnation? If neither paradise nor oblivion are to be had, hadn't you better learn how to live in this world?

It's not controllable. I would just really like to live happily forever. I can't help it. That does not mean I spend all day wishing for it or complaining that I don't believe in it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It's not controllable. I would just really like to live happily forever. I can't help it. That does not mean I spend all day wishing for it or complaining that I don't believe in it.

Well...yes, it's rather controllable. Recoiling from the real state of things is a habit that can be recognized and broken. You can't simultaneously be in touch with reality and longing after paradiseforever. If you open yourself to the true nature of this existence--the shifting, interwoven unity that creates the illusion of individual existence--there is no need for paradiseforever, and things aren't so bad.

For you, RT, LucidFlanders and Juroara, the dissonance between what you believe and what you wish points to a flaw in your understanding.

It is a good question.

I don't believe in any sort of deity; as this excludes benevolent deities who are there to look after you, that can't really be a good thing for myself. I don't believe in a heaven of 'infinite goodness', either.

I don't believe in any sort of objective 'meaning' to reality either, which most people find extremely depressing; I am an existentialist really though (as opposed to a nihilist) and my atheist views are very liberating, so in a sense this is a grey area.

I do however have unconventional views of death. You could liken them to reincarnation.

I always try to stick as closely as I can to logic, so I would hope the above is due to my philosophical deductions (which is how I came to the conclusion) rather than me being led towards that conclusion by a sort of subconscious confirmation bias due to a fear of death. I've always had a disdain of those who doublethink their way into believing things because it makes them feel better; I would feel bad if I have fallen into the same trap.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

I consider the question irrelevant. What is the point in thinking about what you'd like to be true?

irrelevant...to what? it's a fair question, and one that should be asked anytime anyone is listening to someone tell them about their beliefs. "is this really true, or is this what you want to believe is true?" maybe you've misunderstood the question...? I don't understand your reply.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I am an atheist, and I would rather have knowledge of a good life after death than be given 10 billion dollars right now.

well, since no one can be sure what happens to one after one dies, are you saying you'd rather know what does happen, rather than have the money? or that you'd give up that amount in order to (essentially) buy yourself a good afterlife? since you can't know whether or not your afterlife would be good, I'm not sure what you mean. (I'm glad you used the money example though, it reminded me of another subject I'd like to make a thread about. later.)

Taosaur, I agree with everything you said except that I'm inclined to believe in reincarnation. but I don't fully subscribe to any belief systems or "ism"s, there simply aren't enough facts, or at least, I don't feel I have enough information. (the closest terms I could use to describe my beliefs, so far as I can tell, are nihilism + pantheism.)

grasshoppa: to what, dare I ask? o_o

Originally Posted by Invader

Quite frankly, my real desire is to create a fully functional universe that bends exclusively to my will alone. I'd like to be responsible for building my own paradise, piece by piece.

don't you think that would get boring? if I woke up every day, and could do/have absolutely everything I wanted, had no real goals/aspirations, and zero opposition, I think I'd get bored pretty quick. that's why I don't believe an eternal heaven (or, esspecially, an earthly utopia) is possible.

Zhaylin: I like your reply, and I have some questions for you. (they're off topic, but oh well. it's my thread anyway.) what I've gathered from your reply (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you would like to follow a pagan religion because it appeals to your carnal nature, but you believe it is self-destructive? my questions are, do you believe, necessarily, that the whole pagan/wiccan religion/path is wrong, or just that it is not right for you personally? and, you say that you believe "100%" that the bible is "the inspired Word of God." what exactly do you mean by this? do you mean you believe that every word is literally true, and that every rule should be followed? because I could agree with you, that the bible was inspired by god, but to believe it's all completely true, that god himself essentially wrote every word (as some christians believe) is...quite frankly, foolish and ignorant. (and please don't interpret this as a personal attack, allow me to explain.) are you aware that certain books of the bible were left out? and that over time, specific interpretations were basically molded to fit the beliefs of certain groups? don't you realize that man is not perfect, and therefore, any given part of the bible could have been written by someone that only thought they were doing god's will? take for example, a person who murders a child because they believed "god told them to." would you believe they were right? of course not. so why would you believe that every person that contributed writings that make up the bible was necessarily right? (actually, if you would, PM me your answers so we can keep the thread on topic. I'm interested in learning more of your personal views on christianity.)


InvisibleMan: that's...interesting I guess but the IP (that's initial post, mother FUCKERS) was not even a theory and your reply has little or nothing to do with the question.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

What I don't understand is, why be so at odds with reality as it is? Where is the benefit in judging and condemning a world that does not respond to your condemnation? If neither paradise nor oblivion are to be had, hadn't you better learn how to live in this world?

are you trying to say that since we can't know what happens after death, we shouldn't think about it at all, and instead focus on reality at hand?


thankyou, everyone, for your replies :)

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

don't you think that would get boring? if I woke up every day, and could do/have absolutely everything I wanted, had no real goals/aspirations, and zero opposition, I think I'd get bored pretty quick. that's why I don't believe an eternal heaven (or, esspecially, an earthly utopia) is possible.

With an entire universe at one's disposable the possibilities are quite literally endless. I've not yet met an architect or artist who does not enjoy what they do. And to think, you'd be designing a world that you can experience directly. New forms of life, material, physics, colors, states of mind, you name it. You can still experience pain if you so choose. You can still experience death if you wanted to, with all the suffering involved. Maybe you'd like to live among the people you made. I know I would. Maybe I could live amongst 10,000 civilizations scattered amongst the cosmos, all at the same time. What I don't know is why you'd say you'd have zero goals or aspirations, though. The entire purpose of such an existence is to bring to life the imagination of the creator. With a great imagination, I cannot see how one could become bored so easily.

There are many worlds I know I'd love to bring to life.

And what about you? Why would you like to believe that you cease to exist altogether?

I would LOVE to live on a perfect planet with perfect people who never got sick or died. I imagine all the technologies that could be invented that would benefit people and be kind to the planet. The "opposition" is the vast number of areas to study and master and come to love (or not )
Cooking with food meant to taste as it should... (it always comes back to food for me )

Even within my own Christian sect, what I "want" isn't necessarily what I'll get (IF I get back on God's "good side"). I'm one of very few JW's who feel I have the heavenly hope (but that is another topic in and of itself )

THe rest, I'll send in a PM

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

grasshoppa: to what, dare I ask? o_o

To my belief system of course. The world cannot be peaceful unless the people unite under my specific doctrine.

But to give you an answer fitting to an excellent question, I don't really believe or disbelieve in anything unless given a concrete reason not to. I've read/listened too much Robert Anton Wilson and as a result I've become what he calls a "model agnostic". Which basically means you don't accept or reject anything fully. Of course, my whole canon of almost-fully-accepted beliefs have an overlay of Roman Catholicism that I can't get rid of. Not that I subscribe completely to that doctrine, but there are a few certain things that have stuck with me. As a result I sometimes feel guilty when I try to logically justify something as not wrong, when I really feel that it is.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Well...yes, it's rather controllable. Recoiling from the real state of things is a habit that can be recognized and broken. You can't simultaneously be in touch with reality and longing after paradiseforever. If you open yourself to the true nature of this existence--the shifting, interwoven unity that creates the illusion of individual existence--there is no need for paradiseforever, and things aren't so bad.

For you, RT, LucidFlanders and Juroara, the dissonance between what you believe and what you wish points to a flaw in your understanding.

You said one too many things here. There is no flaw in my understanding.

I am happy with all of my beliefs. I was sharing my past experience coming out of Catholicism

Originally Posted by Taosaur

the dissonance between what you believe and what you wish points to a flaw in your understanding.

Although that statement wasn't directed at me, it allowed me to make more sense of what it was I would like to believe in, and why I like it. It may further clarify what I was getting at earlier for everyone else.

The way in which I enjoy our current reality is relatively straight forward: I like to create things. That can range anywhere from building primitive devices like spudguns to the more complex pieces of physical artwork. The world I envision I'd like to exist in is really nothing more than a continuation of what I'm doing now, but on a scale many degrees greater. I built with legos as a kid. I build with manufactured pieces out of hardware stores now. If I were to continue I would be looking at a career as an architect or mechanical engineer, and further beyond that (assuming the technology was available) I might be designing humanity's first intergalactic starship or wormhole transportation system. Where should I like to see myself, if I were to think rather extravagantly? Does it go without saying?

Those who aspire to power wish to rule worlds.
Those who aspire to create wish to make worlds.

None of that was directed at you, Taosaur, in case there was any confusion. Your statement sparked a new train of thought is all.

Originally Posted by Rottingteeth

are you trying to say that since we can't know what happens after death, we shouldn't think about it at all, and instead focus on reality at hand?

Direct experience of death is rare among the living, whereas direct experience of that which dies is readily available at all times. If the goal is to know death, the best available means is to come to a clear understanding of oneself and one's situation.

Originally Posted by juroara

You said one too many things here. There is no flaw in my understanding.

I am happy with all of my beliefs. I was sharing my past experience coming out of Catholicism

Less-dissonant-than-thou are we

I was responding to the bit about your cat.

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

well, since no one can be sure what happens to one after one dies, are you saying you'd rather know what does happen, rather than have the money? or that you'd give up that amount in order to (essentially) buy yourself a good afterlife? since you can't know whether or not your afterlife would be good, I'm not sure what you mean. (I'm glad you used the money example though, it reminded me of another subject I'd like to make a thread about. later.)

He is saying he rather know there is a good afterlife then to be that rich and not know.

Originally Posted by Invader

...With a great imagination, I cannot see how one could become bored so easily. :)

There are many worlds I know I'd love to bring to life.

And what about you? Why would you like to believe that you cease to exist altogether?

yes, I can see how it would be fun at first, but after awhile, I think I'd get incredibly lonely. if all people/beings are your creation, they could have no thoughts of their own. everything they did would be completely predictable. there'd be no opposition, any opposition that you created would have been created by you, so you couldn't consider it opposition, could you? unless I could, after my fun, completely obliterate myself, or at least come back to a world that includes opposition, I'd consider that hell.

I want to cease to exist because I'm tired of everything. there is nothing new under the sun...I'd like to finish the rest of this life, but after that, I don't want to come back. I don't believe a perfect heaven is possible, and I'd rather not live another life, even if it is better. I'm just tired. maybe this is silly, and perhaps it isn't true (and I'm by no means trying to say I'm anything special) but I feel like I've been here a thousand times already. even if reincarnation isn't a reality, I still feel like that.


grasshoppa: I will have to look up this Robert Anton Wilson...oh, I like him already:


:D

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Direct experience of death is rare among the living, whereas direct experience of that which dies is readily available at all times. If the goal is to know death, the best available means is to come to a clear understanding of oneself and one's situation.

I think I understand. could you possibly elaborate?

LucidFlanders: that still doesn't answer the question, and it wasn't directed at you anyway.

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

yes, I can see how it would be fun at first, but after awhile, I think I'd get incredibly lonely. if all people/beings are your creation, they could have no thoughts of their own. everything they did would be completely predictable. there'd be no opposition, any opposition that you created would have been created by you, so you couldn't consider it opposition, could you? unless I could, after my fun, completely obliterate myself, or at least come back to a world that includes opposition, I'd consider that hell.

If heaven was so boring, you'd think there would be a lot of spirits bored out of their minds and from the ghost stories you hear, they are not bored.

I want to cease to exist because I'm tired of everything. there is nothing new under the sun...I'd like to finish the rest of this life, but after that, I don't want to come back. I don't believe a perfect heaven is possible, and I'd rather not live another life, even if it is better. I'm just tired. maybe this is silly, and perhaps it isn't true (and I'm by no means trying to say I'm anything special) but I feel like I've been here a thousand times already. even if reincarnation isn't a reality, I still feel like that.

Ceasing to exist means you do not exist...forever. while you are bored, being nothing forever is not something you want to have happen to you. You have to look at the bigger picture, and you can't if you say "i want to never exist again" because life can be boring. You can't ever expierience the thing you like, again...nothing, ever. It's all done.

LucidFlanders: that still doesn't answer the question, and it wasn't directed at you anyway.

Well, i decided to answer for him anyway.

Ceasing to exist has it's appeal. That's where I am, emotionally/mentally right now.
When chaos consumes your life, you don't care about a bigger picture. You care about the here and now and how it does, indeed, feel as if a thousand life times have passed. You just haven't the energy or frame of heart to live another day let alone another life time.
If I slit my wrists and died tonight, there would be no resurrection for me. I would cease to exist.
I guess some part of me still has some love of life left Ceasing to exist terrifies me and always had. Even when I was a kid I would have bursts of anxiety (for no reason) of never having or having had existed. I couldn't imagine a world that never knew me. Even though I'm nothing special, I feel as if pages would be missing from the greatest story ever written.

You could still give your creation free will with no opposition. The opposition would be (I think I'm repeating myself) all the opportunites that lay before them.
With limitless life and resources, the right motivations (not driving by greed etc), imagine what mankind would be capable of.
We'd travel the universe, find new planets, colonize them and learn about an alien territory.

I want to see how the story "ends". When this corrupt system of things is done away with and a righteous new world is ushered in, I want to see it and be able to say I survived the old system (even if I die first). I want to help create and build onto the new one.
I can't do that if I give up now.