Thread: A question for Christians who accept evolution.

God couldn't just let them into heaven, as they didn't know that Jesus is lord, but could he send them to hell either?

I hate to be taking part in this, but if it helps any in arguing against your pastor, well, here you go.

Beliefs are founded entirely on language. If one does not possess language, one cannot possess a belief. Early man did not have language. Neither do animals. Early man, therefor, lacked the capacity to believe, and could not be held responsible for what they were not capable of.

Originally Posted by Invader

I hate to be taking part in this, but if it helps any in arguing against your pastor, well, here you go.

Beliefs are founded entirely on language. If one does not possess language, one cannot possess a belief. Early man did not have language. Neither do animals. Early man, therefor, lacked the capacity to believe, and could not be held responsible for what they were not capable of.

So by that logic, they automatically went to heaven?

Tell your pastor he is going to Hell for saying, "God couldn't..." Tell him God is omnipotent and has no limits on his abilities. Then PLEASE tell me his response to that.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tell your pastor he is going to Hell for saying, "God couldn't..." Tell him God is omnipotent and has no limits on his abilities. Then PLEASE tell me his response to that.

Yes.
This post is Win.

I don't necessarily believe in Evolution, but I believe things have adapted to their environment...Like animals changing so they have more chances of survival. Same goes for us humans.

Originally Posted by Fableflame

So by that logic, they automatically went to heaven?

It would just mean that the religion can't hold them accountable for the fulfillment of the "worship Jesus or suffer" belief. It's not as if the religion can hold anyone accountable for anything anyways. Pastors are simple human beings. They have as much real power as anyone else.

Did Moses, Abraham, Daniel or others go to a fiery hell of torment becaue they didn't believe in Jesus? Jesus wasn't even born yet.

I don't believe in evolution (as I understand the theory to be- that man evolved from apes and so on), but I do believe in adaptation.

The Bible states that 1,000 years is as a day to God and a day as if a thousand years. God's time table, therefore, is not the same as our timetable.
The events in Genesis, however, seem to go along in unison with those of evolution (i.e. the earth was created, then sea creatures, then grass etc, then flying creatures, mammals and bugs etc, then man and woman-- I hope I got it right lol)

If there were human-like people before Adam and Eve, they were more human than animal and neither heaven nor hell await them.

I don't believe in a fiery hell and only a limited number of people go to heaven. The rest of mankind is to be resurrected or live into the establishing of a "new world" here on Earth.
Among those, will be men and women of faith who perished before Christ ascended to heaven. (Christ instituted a "new covenant" for "the kingdom" and such was never even a prospect before him. Man was created to reside on earth. They were never meant to die. God didn't tell Adam that if he sinned he would go to heaven or hell. God simply said "you will die" and 'return to dust'.)

While on the topic of evolution, however, I have a wider acceptance of the belief. God said that creatures would multiply according to their "kind" but what exactly does that include? Through the centuries we have come to have a more vast array of dogs, cats, birds etc. Some has been through the process of selective breeding, others have occurred from a more natural degradation (?) of the species (tribes of people with dwarfism for instance). Did lizards "adapt" or "evolve" from birds? I don't know. I don't know what the original genetic makeup looked like (and neither do I now lol).

What happened to early versions of man who's cognitive skills weren't developed enough to understand that Jesus is lord?

Your pastor is an idiot.

I suppose the universe started when Jesus was born did it?

No, not even history according to Bible is that messed up; many people lived and died before Jesus existed and indeed before word of the Christian God. Indeed many people still live in communities where they never hear of Jesus or Christianity.

I don't necessarily believe in Evolution, but I believe things have adapted to their environment...Like animals changing

Um, yes. Organisms changing is in fact the definition of evolution.

Originally Posted by hellohihello

I don't necessarily believe in Evolution, but I believe things have adapted to their environment...Like animals changing so they have more chances of survival. Same goes for us humans.

Lawl.

Your pastor's question is, of course, based on the Judeo-Christian assumption that God is the only god...or that if there are other gods, God is the only one to worship. What if Allah is the one true god? Will we be denied admittance to heaven for not worshiping him?

The main point is, if gods are supposed to be all-forgiving, and unconditionally love all their creations, then what would they gain from denying a certain group of people entrance to Paradise simply because they had no knowledge of the gods in question? Perhaps if those people lived a pampered life without anything even remotely resembling hardship, it'd be somewhat understandable, but...

Originally Posted by Xei

Your pastor is an idiot.

I suppose the universe started when Jesus was born did it?

No, not even history according to Bible is that messed up; many people lived and died before Jesus existed and indeed before word of the Christian God. Indeed many people still live in communities where they never hear of Jesus or Christianity.

Um, yes. Organisms changing is in fact the definition of evolution.

Never thought I'd see this day but, Im actually going to agree with this. I would say Xei hit the nail on the coffin. My words exactly.

One thing I think I need to clarify is that the Pastor doesn't believe that people before Jesus automatically go to hell, I think I just phrased what he was saying wrong. He's talked about how Moses and all those other old guys are in heaven, I just don't remember the gist of what he said.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tell your pastor he is going to Hell for saying, "God couldn't..." Tell him God is omnipotent and has no limits on his abilities. Then PLEASE tell me his response to that.

Hah, I tend to avoid making inflammatory comments, but it would be nice to knock him from his high horse.

Originally Posted by Invader

Beliefs are founded entirely on language. If one does not possess language, one cannot possess a belief. Early man did not have language. Neither do animals. Early man, therefor, lacked the capacity to believe, and could not be held responsible for what they were not capable of.

That's a really good point.

Originally Posted by Xei

Your pastor is an idiot.

I've been wanting to before I go to college.

Originally Posted by Xei

I suppose the universe started when Jesus was born did it?

No, not even history according to Bible is that messed up; many people lived and died before Jesus existed and indeed before word of the Christian God. Indeed many people still live in communities where they never hear of Jesus or Christianity.

I think I put his ideas down wrong, as I mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

Your pastor's question is, of course, based on the Judeo-Christian assumption that God is the only god...or that if there are other gods, God is the only one to worship. What if Allah is the one true god? Will we be denied admittance to heaven for not worshiping him?

He'd fire back some bullshit about faith and how Allah is a false deity.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

The main point is, if gods are supposed to be all-forgiving, and unconditionally love all their creations, then what would they gain from denying a certain group of people entrance to Paradise simply because they had no knowledge of the gods in question? Perhaps if those people lived a pampered life without anything even remotely resembling hardship, it'd be somewhat understandable, but...

That's my thinking on the issue (even thought I don't believe in the afterlife), but the God that the Pastor describes is usually not quite so forgiving. He pretty much describes the typical "fire and brimstone" and ultra vengeful God.

But yeah guys, thanks for the answers. I have a feeling this topic will be coming up a lot in youth group discussions.

The scope here is so narrow. Why not ask where braindamaged people go after they die. Does he answer that question?

There WAS a fall in secular history. It was when the human ego was inflated by cultural evolution which leads to our possessiveness, sin, etc.

This has been covered in another post entitled i'm scared of hell. God will show mercy on those that can't understand (babies, young children, mentally handicapped, those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God etc...) If you believe in evolution, ( I don't) i think God would have mercy on them if they cannot understand. I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God

So that means when Christians spread their message, they damn people to hell who otherwise would not have gone.

Damn Christians!

Early hominids would have existed long before Jesus, so they couldn't have been Christians.

Originally Posted by davej

This has been covered in another post entitled i'm scared of hell. God will show mercy on those that can't understand (babies, young children, mentally handicapped, those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God etc...) If you believe in evolution, ( I don't) i think God would have mercy on them if they cannot understand. I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

The funny thing is, looking back on it, he (the pastor) has mentioned a lot of stuff about 'accountability' and how babies who died will go to heaven. But his stance on evolution is so hypocritical it's almost funny.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

So that means when Christians spread their message, they damn people to hell who otherwise would not have gone.

Damn Christians!

I request a Christian response to that point.

That statement is outrageous. A loving God wouldn't send anyone to hell if they haven't even had a chance to listen. The pastor needs to resign, and this is why I don't go to church.

Originally Posted by davej

This has been covered in another post entitled i'm scared of hell. God will show mercy on those that can't understand (babies, young children, mentally handicapped, those in far regions of the earth where they couldn't have had a chance to hear about the word of God etc...) If you believe in evolution, ( I don't) i think God would have mercy on them if they cannot understand. I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

Then everybody will go to heaven, since everybody is "mentally handicapped" one way or the other.

Catbus, will you ask your preacher if "my friend" gets off the hook for being mentally handicapped because "he's" stoned 24/7?

Originally Posted by davej

I do believe in adaptation, not evolution.

See this is a classic case of how confusing things become within christianity once words in the bible become transgressed. THis problem doesn't even exist once the truth is revealed properly as to what happens to people when they Die. They simply no longer exist, people only exist within "Gods memory" and before anyone say anything about Gods memory make sure you take a close look at my "Air Quotes".

Rebuttal: If animals can't make it into heaven, then what do people eat there?