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    1. #51
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      I was referring to your self-contradictory argument, which concerns God not being able to do "not-doingness", yet He is supposed to be able to do anything.
      Not being able to do no-doingness? What in the #[email protected]* are you talking about? I think you might be confusing what I believe and what the Bible says.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      I have been affirming that God is Omnipotent because impossibilities are outside Reality - which is the Absolute, whereas you are denying God's Omnipotence because God's Omnipotence cannot contradict itself.
      Being outside of the scope of reality is what would make something an impossibility. The Bible says God does not have those.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Impossibility is hypothetical, and "nothing" is hypothetical, just like the Omnipotence that *should be able to* destroy itself.
      Of course an impossiblity, which is a thing that cannot be done, falls outside of the scope of tangible and logical reality. It is still something that cannot be done. It is a principle or concept that is not real and is something in that way. There is a word for it. The Bible says there is nothing God cannot do. If you cannot create a square circle, then creating a square circle is something you cannot do. Is it not?

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Impossibility is hypothetical, and "nothing" is hypothetical, just like the Omnipotence that *should be able to* destroy itself.
      Is destroying himself something God cannot do?

      Quote Originally Posted by Fableflame View Post
      "God can do anything" and "there is nothing that God cannot do", can mean totally different things depending on how you interpret them.
      I disagree. If there is nothing a being can't do, then nothing is impossible for that being. If a guy says, "There is nothing I can't do with my hands," can't you prove him wrong by pointing out that he can't draw a square circle with them?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    2. #52
      Member Tyler's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I disagree. If there is nothing a being can't do, then nothing is impossible for that being. If a guy says, "There is nothing I can't do with my hands," can't you prove him wrong by pointing out that he can't draw a square circle with them?
      Again, it comes down to interpretation.
      It's been said in this thread, but i can't be bothered to find it and quote it, that "God can do anything" meant he can do anything within rationality.
      While you think that it should mean he can do anything, rational or not.
      I personally think that "anything" covers rational and unrational. If God can do anything, it doesn't have to make sense. What's the point of being God if you can't bend the rules of reality every now and then? But that's how I interpret it. I can see where both arguments are coming from, but i have my own interpretation.
      Do you see what I mean?
      This shit never happens to me

    3. #53
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fableflame View Post
      Again, it comes down to interpretation.
      It's been said in this thread, but i can't be bothered to find it and quote it, that "God can do anything" meant he can do anything within rationality.
      While you think that it should mean he can do anything, rational or not.
      I personally think that "anything" covers rational and unrational. If God can do anything, it doesn't have to make sense. What's the point of being God if you can't bend the rules of reality every now and then? But that's how I interpret it. I can see where both arguments are coming from, but i have my own interpretation.
      Do you see what I mean?
      I see what you mean, but I still don't agree. If God wrote the Bible, then he should have been as specific as he needed to be, like any good legislator. The way it is written does not mention exceptions. If ther are exceptions and the readers are just supposed to assume that, then the book is not perfectly written.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    4. #54
      Member Tyler's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I see what you mean, but I still don't agree. If God wrote the Bible, then he should have been as specific as he neede to be, like any good legislator. The way it is written does not mention exceptions. If ther are exceptions and the readers are just supposed to assume that, then the book is not perfectly written.
      God didn't write the bible.
      This shit never happens to me

    5. #55
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fableflame View Post
      God didn't write the bible.
      I agree.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    6. #56
      Member Tyler's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      If God wrote the Bible
      Then why in your last post did you talk about God writing the bible?
      This shit never happens to me

    7. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I agree.
      Pft. Of course not. He provided the inspiration.
      John 3:16

      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    8. #58
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Noogah View Post
      Pft.
      Pft. PFT!!

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    9. #59
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      Ha I was just scrolling through the forums and I thought I saw a thread called 'Can God create a cock so big...'

      It didn't though.

    10. #60
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      [QUOTE=Universal Mind;1159793If you don't like such things, then turn on the television and try to find Robert Tilton. I'm sure he won't express any disagreement with your core beliefs.[/QUOTE]

      Tilton? You're not even close.

      Why are you so offended by me? It's not like I'm targeting you or something. I just don't think a riddle that can't be answered is fair way to challenge someone's belief in God.

      And you think I'm stupid? Well, then...I think you're dumb.

      I read somewhere that if God is in everything then God is also inside someone's butt and is also the butt itself, as well as the excrement and at the same time is someone else's face and the food that person eats. I think it was this forum. That was the best thread ever.
      Now the whole world stands on the brink, staring down into bloody hell, all those liberals and intellectuals and smooth-talkers...

      We should have done this as men. Not with fire.

    11. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by Noogah View Post
      Okay. Let me try once more. Two physical bodies. One cannot. One can. God can do anything, but canalso reduce himself in the physical realm so he can't. So technically, in this single
      scenario, for a limited amount of time, the physical body that God created is unable to do so. Yes. But does that mean that he is now disabled for eternity? No. You have enough flour to bake anything. Take away to much, and you can't bake anything. Put it back, and you can. It isn't a perfect analogy, but it's the closest I can come up with while drowsily lying in my bed at 1:54 A.M
      But if the only restriction is his desire to not let himself lift it and he is still able to call back the power he requires to lift it, then he isn't exactly unable to lift it. Saying he doesn't have the power right now because he keeps himself from using it all is not a restriction if at any time he can simply will that power back and lift the rock. The only thing really preventing himself from lifting the rock is his desire to not lift it in that case. That'd be like saying it was impossible for you to make any phone calls because you unplugged your telephone. Impossible as long as the phone remains unplugged, sure, but as long as you have the ability to plug it back in and dial, it's within your power.

    12. #62
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mark75 View Post
      But if the only restriction is his desire to not let himself lift it and he is still able to call back the power he requires to lift it, then he isn't exactly unable to lift it. Saying he doesn't have the power right now because he keeps himself from using it all is not a restriction if at any time he can simply will that power back and lift the rock. The only thing really preventing himself from lifting the rock is his desire to not lift it in that case. That'd be like saying it was impossible for you to make any phone calls because you unplugged your telephone. Impossible as long as the phone remains unplugged, sure, but as long as you have the ability to plug it back in and dial, it's within your power.
      It's the laws of nature working against the physical body he created, not his will. Of course, he made the laws of nature.
      John 3:16

      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    13. #63
      Treebeard! Odd_Nonposter's Avatar
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      Forgive me if this is not entirely related to the "can God contradict himself?" or "bible=/=fax from heaven" discussion.

      Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
      An "unstoppable force" and an immovable object cannot exist in the same
      universe. Their existences would contradict the other
      They can, but it all depends upon your definition of "unstoppable." Is "unstoppable" "cannot be brought to a halt" or "cannot change course?" When asked the question of what occurs when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object, I've always said that the unstoppable force bounces off of the immovable object in a different direction. The immovable object has not moved, and the unstoppable force has not been stopped, but simply redirected.
      The Emperor Wears No Clothes: The book that everyone needs to read.
      "If the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on."- Terence McKenna

    14. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by Noogah View Post
      It's the laws of nature working against the physical body he created, not his will. Of course, he made the laws of nature.
      And he can change or simply overcome them at any time supposing that he's all-powerful. Yes, it is his will. You basically said he can choose to not be able to lift the rock if he chooses to put himself in a circumstance where he is unable to lift the rock. As long as he has the ability to choose to take himself out of that circumstance there is nothing but his will preventing him from actually lifting the rock. How can you say he's really trying to lift the rock when he specifically puts himself in a situation that is designed to make it so that he can't lift the rock and yet has the ability to take himself out of that situation at any time and use his magic to lift the rock? Supposing that he actually wanted to lift the rock (I.E. that it was his actual will for the rock to be lifted) he'd need only get out of that situation, which he can. There is nothing but his will which stops him from doing that.

    15. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mark75 View Post
      And he can change or simply overcome them at any time supposing that he's all-powerful. Yes, it is his will. You basically said he can choose to not be able to lift the rock if he chooses to put himself in a circumstance where he is unable to lift the rock. As long as he has the ability to choose to take himself out of that circumstance there is nothing but his will preventing him from actually lifting the rock. How can you say he's really trying to lift the rock when he specifically puts himself in a situation that is designed to make it so that he can't lift the rock and yet has the ability to take himself out of that situation at any time and use his magic to lift the rock? Supposing that he actually wanted to lift the rock (I.E. that it was his actual will for the rock to be lifted) he'd need only get out of that situation, which he can. There is nothing but his will which stops him from doing that.
      Exactly! You prove my point. He can do anything.
      John 3:16

      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    16. #66
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Noogah View Post
      Exactly! You prove my point. He can do anything.
      aaAAAHAHHAA hhhahhaaa HHHAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHHAHhaahhaahhaha hhaHHHAaaaahHHH aaahhHHHHHHHaa hHHAHHAHHHAAAhh

      You're trying to kill me or something!
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    17. #67
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      You are still just speaking gibberish. I can ask, can god do cheese? No, that sentence makes no sense. So god can not do cheese, there for god isn't all powerful. There is something he can not do, he can not do cheese. That is basically the kind of argument you are making. All rational and logical people know you are not actually saying anything, you just sound like you are.

    18. #68
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      Er, no, that's not analogous.

      Pretty sure 'cheese' isn't a verb.

    19. #69
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      It is now. example: Mark75 cheesed all over Noogah's argument.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    20. #70
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      God can make a rock so big he couldn't lift it.

      Then he would lift it.

      ooOoOoooOOOOOOooooOoooOOOOOOoOoooOOoooo

    21. #71
      Member Tyler's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I see what you mean, but I still don't agree. If God wrote the Bible, then he should have been as specific as he needed to be, like any good legislator. The way it is written does not mention exceptions. If ther are exceptions and the readers are just supposed to assume that, then the book is not perfectly written.
      Quote Originally Posted by Fableflame View Post
      God didn't write the bible.
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I agree.
      Quote Originally Posted by Fableflame View Post
      Then why in your last post did you talk about God writing the bible?
      UM, you haven't answered my question.
      This shit never happens to me

    22. #72
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ifuturist View Post
      Tilton? You're not even close.

      Why are you so offended by me? It's not like I'm targeting you or something. I just don't think a riddle that can't be answered is fair way to challenge someone's belief in God.

      And you think I'm stupid? Well, then...I think you're dumb.

      I read somewhere that if God is in everything then God is also inside someone's butt and is also the butt itself, as well as the excrement and at the same time is someone else's face and the food that person eats. I think it was this forum. That was the best thread ever.
      Don't ever assume my sarcasm is a reflection of negative emotion. I love these debates. I also didn't call you stupid. Thanks for loving my thread about God's omnipresence, if that's what you're talking about. However, I said that if God is everywhere then his entire body exists in all possible sizes in all places, so his penis is up your ass and his balls are in your mouth.

      Noogah, thanks for the admission of what the concept of God is supposed to be.

      Fableflame, I talked about God writing the Bible because Christians generally believe the Bible is the "word of God". Humans supposedly wrote the words with their hands, but they are still supposed to be God's words.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    23. #73
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      It is now. example: Mark75 cheesed all over Noogah's argument.
      Uh...do you mean to say he supported it? Whatever. This is getting entirely to strange.

      Seriously though, your mistake is that you believe the laws of nature are present everywhere. Even outside of the physical realm, and the God is bound by our laws of nature and logic. Despite that, my argument still make sense, and you have yet to debunk it. You keep saying stuff like "It only works because he makes it work." (Obviously paraphrased.) Well, you can see it that way, but it's more like he lets it work that way. As I said before, he plays by his own rules on the physical realm. Besides, who cares? Either way he CAN do either.
      John 3:16

      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    24. #74
      Member really's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Not being able to do no-doingness? What in the #[email protected]* are you talking about? I think you might be confusing what I believe and what the Bible says.
      I simplified your claim - the claim in which you say something with a blanket statement has to contradict itself in order for it to be valid. Gee it still sounds bad. Hahaha! If something is outside Reality for example, you still think it should be doable by God for Him to be Omnipotent, whereas Omnipotence would not actually allow it from the beginning. You'd go on to say that therefore it is not Omnipotence, but that is your own category error. Contexts and key words are very important.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Being outside of the scope of reality is what would make something an impossibility. The Bible says God does not have those.
      God does not have what - impossibilities? No, there is no impossibilities in context. On the other hand you could still interpret it as you do, as a Bible or wording flaw (Non-God is impossible), but it still has nothing against Omnipotence. You could also say that God doesn't "do" anything at all.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Of course an impossiblity, which is a thing that cannot be done, falls outside of the scope of tangible and logical reality. It is still something that cannot be done. It is a principle or concept that is not real and is something in that way. There is a word for it.
      That's not the point. There is also a concept for non-existence, and a whole bunch of other imaginary opposites. But they're still hypothetical. If God did something, He would be doing everything already, because He is God and nothing is outside Himself. If there is nothing He cannot do, don't ask if He can do nothing, or ask of something that is intrinsically out of context, because it is invalid. Like Ne-yo said, INTRINSICALLY.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      The Bible says there is nothing God cannot do. If you cannot create a square circle, then creating a square circle is something you cannot do. Is it not?
      No, "drawing square circles" isn't something you cannot do, nor is it something you can do. It doesn't exist. It is not an example. It is a contradiction, and it has no context in which to exist. Tell me why it is valid.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Is destroying himself something God cannot do?
      What is your meaning of God? Destruction is out of the question; God Created All That Exists, outside time and space. God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent. He is invincible, and you only are trying to believe He must be invincible if He can destroy himself; that there's nothing He cannot do if He can do nothing?

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      I disagree. If there is nothing a being can't do, then nothing is impossible for that being. If a guy says, "There is nothing I can't do with my hands," can't you prove him wrong by pointing out that he can't draw a square circle with them?
      If that is not possible in Reality to begin with, why would it be possible with his hands? There's no connection. He is obviously saying that he can maximize his potential use with his hands, in which case square circles are out of the question. I think it's mature to say he can do anything with his hands and understand that it is within reason. Maybe you should look up the word intrinsic.
      Last edited by really; 08-31-2009 at 09:02 AM.

    25. #75
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      It is very simple. Those things you say are impossible, an omnipotent being would be able to make possible. Omnipotence is infinite power. It has no limits. There is no way around that. However, it IS an illogical concept.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


      I just might sig that one.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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