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    1. #1
      Member davej's Avatar
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      Question for athiests...

      How does Christianity REALLY effect you... How does someone being a christian effect you? Besides those people that won't leave you alone while walking down the sidewalk or in the mall or whatever. Those people get on my nerves as well.
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    2. #2
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      It is natural to desire that the rest of the world believe as you do. Similar beliefs validate your own. The opposite is also true. The questions become "why do so many people believe so differently from myself? How is it that they see the same world that I do and yet draw different conclusions?" An attempt to change someone's view to your own is an attempt at validation of your own beliefs.

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    3. #3
      Member davej's Avatar
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      I'm not asking anyone to believe as i do. not once have i done so on here. I am just wondering how we effect you.
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    4. #4
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      I don't want creationism taught in schools.

      It turns my stomach to think of some creationist lying to its kids about what we are and where we comes from.

      I almost had a creationist idiot as a vice president because christians voted for mccain not in spite of but because she was his running mate

      Two of my best friends can't get married because christians think they own the country

      I don't like ignorance

      I really loathe willful ignorance.

      @Xaquaria, Your answer is pretty silly. I understand that it's the conventional, politically correct belief (and applicable in a lot of areas) that forcing your beliefs on others is a form of seeking security. It's not applicable here. A lot of atheists really don't give a fuck what other people believe as long as they keep it to themselves. Christianity doesn't do that by virtue of what it is. It is a mind parasite and you know it as well as I do.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    5. #5
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      I don't want creationism taught in schools.

      It turns my stomach to think of some creationist lying to its kids about what we are and where we comes from.

      I almost had a creationist idiot as a vice president because christians voted for mccain not in spite of but because she was his running mate

      Two of my best friends can't get married because christians think they own the country

      I don't like ignorance

      I really loathe willful ignorance.

      @Xaquaria, Your answer is pretty silly. I understand that it's the conventional, politically correct belief (and applicable in a lot of areas) that forcing your beliefs on others is a form of seeking security. It's not applicable here. A lot of atheists really don't give a fuck what other people believe as long as they keep it to themselves. Christianity doesn't do that by virtue of what it is. It is a mind parasite and you know it as well as I do.
      No where in my post did I use the word force. What other purpose is there to telling someone else your beliefs if it is not the desire to show them your own perspective? Loathing ignorance only applies to this situation if you believe another's perspective is inferior to your own. If your goal was simply to keep others from imposing their beliefs on you, there are countless easier ways to accomplish that goal, first among them being simply do not talk to those people.

      Christianity is a complex system that controls and is wielded by many forces. If nothing else, you are showing your willful ignorance about the complex nature of what you claim to oppose.
      Last edited by Xaqaria; 09-23-2009 at 07:44 AM.

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    6. #6
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      No where in my post did I use the word force. What other purpose is there to telling someone else your beliefs if it is not the desire to show them your own perspective? Loathing ignorance only applies to this situation if you believe another's perspective is inferior to your own. If your goal was simply to keep others from imposing their beliefs on you, there are countless easier ways to accomplish that goal, first among them being simply do not talk to those people.
      fair enough about the use of the word 'force'. I felt that it was implied. At any rate, if I could force the facts that we all know about the world on them without bringing my other beliefs into it, I would in a heart beat. It would be doing everyone a favor. I wouldn't think twice about it.

      I do believe that the perspective of creationism is inferior to that of science. I've been straight up about that one more than once. So I do believe that creationists are ignorant. Perfectly applicable use of the word. Everybody that gets it knows that they're ignorant. People that believe that the earth is flat are ignorant.

      But I didn't say that my goal is to not have them impose their beliefs on me. As I said, my concern is mainly for the abuse that they inflict on their children and on people that they don't like. If they accepted evolution and started supporting gay marriage then I wouldn't be half as aggressive as I am towards them. I still think that the sky daddy thing is ridiculous but I have weed so I suppose they can have their sky daddy if they really need him that bad.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    7. #7
      Member davej's Avatar
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      When was the last time creationism was taught in school. actually it is against the law to teach that in school, is it not?

      Your friends (i assume are gay) can get married in several states.

      not to make this political, you really think Obama was a better choice lol

      A lot of atheists really don't give a fuck what other people believe as long as they keep it to themselves.
      Then why come to R/S knowing that you may run into people that believe in some from of religion may be sharing their beliefs?
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    8. #8
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      Christianity is a complex system that controls and is wielded by many forces. If nothing else, you are showing your willful ignorance about the complex nature of what you claim to oppose.
      I'm aware of the diversity of it. There are a lot of different types of christians and not all of them supported sarah palin. Around half of them are creationists though and there's not much subtlety to understand about that. Why waste the time on something that's wrong?

      It's not a symmetric situation. I'm on the superior end of it. Sucks for them.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    9. #9
      Member davej's Avatar
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      I'm on the superior end of it. Sucks for them.
      Are you saying you are superior to those who believe in creationism?
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    10. #10
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      When was the last time creationism was taught in school. actually it is against the law to teach that in school, is it not?
      Intelligent Design is creationism. A lot of teachers don't teach evolution or do a bad job of it. The discovery institute is one of the most vile organisations on the face of the planet.

      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      Your friends (i assume are gay) can get married in several states.
      So they should have to move to get married? fuck yourself.

      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      not to make this political, you really think Obama was a better choice lol
      Better than some dumb bitch that thinks the earth is 6,000 years old and that being able to see russia gives her foreign policy experience? Are you serious?

      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      Then why come to R/S knowing that you may run into people that believe in some from of religion may be sharing their beliefs?
      I'm a religious person. Do you have to believe in god to be religious now? This forum is about debating religion. Get over it.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    11. #11
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      Are you saying you are superior to those who believe in creationism?
      My knowledge of the natural world sure is.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    12. #12
      Member davej's Avatar
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      last time i checked, you can get married in any state and it be legal in the state that you live. My wife and I got married in Jamaica and it is legal here in the US. I know a couple who got married in Mexico, DR and Canada. so no they don't have to move to get married. If it was so important to them, then going to another state wouldn't be an issue.
      Very few schools actually teach any kind of creationism. most of those that do are private schools.
      I would rather have Palin and McCain in office then a socialist who is tied up with Acorn and those like Bill Ayers...

      You are a religious person? what religion are you?

      Oh and by the way? why the foul language? can we not have a civil discussion?
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    13. #13
      Member davej's Avatar
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      My knowledge of the natural world sure is.
      Kind of funny how i tend to here about how we (those who believe in some from of religion) are so rightous but yet some of you continue to make comments like this.
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    14. #14
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      last time i checked, you can get married in any state and it be legal in the state that you live. My wife and I got married in Jamaica and it is legal here in the US. I know a couple who got married in Mexico, DR and Canada. so no they don't have to move to get married. If it was so important to them, then going to another state wouldn't be an issue.
      Irrelevant. I don't think that my state would recognize it but even if it did, that's not the issue. The issue is that they shouldn't have to do anything any differently than you do.

      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      Very few schools actually teach any kind of creationism. most of those that do are private schools.
      Great. So it's okay to abuse your children as long as you pay a private "school" or home "school" them. I'm at ease now.

      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      I would rather have Palin and McCain in office then a socialist who is tied up with Acorn and those like Bill Ayers...
      It's pretty clear that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to what is and is not socialism. Politics is dirty business and both sides are fucked up. At least Obama/Biden are intelligent enough to understand basic scientific facts that I would expect a 15 year old of average intelligence to be able to grasp without too much difficulty. Palin is just a creationist moron and the only reason mccain picked her is to satiate the creationist morons that make up the bulk of the working class republicans in the south.

      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      You are a religious person? what religion are you?
      I believe in the wonder of the universe and the fundamental humanity of humans. Do I really need to stick a name on it for you? I am an athiest though. There's some buddhism in there and less taoism though I respect that as well. I even respect gnostic christians.


      And I don't consider "fuck" to be foul. It's a word. I use it as I see fit. You expressed the belief that it was good enough that my friends could travel to another state to get married. That's your belief. It's my belief that people that feel that way can fuck themselves. I expressed my belief.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    15. #15
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      Kind of funny how i tend to here about how we (those who believe in some from of religion) are so rightous but yet some of you continue to make comments like this.
      Do you understand what a FACT is? Do you honestly believe that some dusty old book that got written 2000 years ago at the latest can compete with modern science for understanding FACTS about the physical world?

      Again, it's not a symmetric situation. sucks for you.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    16. #16
      Member davej's Avatar
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      Great. So it's okay to abuse your children as long as you pay a private "school" or home "school" them. I'm at ease now.
      Who said anything about abusing your children?

      I actually think it is kind of funny that you are getting so mad. I really don't care what you actually think and some of your answers were actually what I was expecting to hear based off the first question. I just can't believe how disrecpectful and mad one can get so quickly...
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    17. #17
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      fair enough about the use of the word 'force'. I felt that it was implied. At any rate, if I could force the facts that we all know about the world on them without bringing my other beliefs into it, I would in a heart beat. It would be doing everyone a favor. I wouldn't think twice about it.

      I do believe that the perspective of creationism is inferior to that of science. I've been straight up about that one more than once. So I do believe that creationists are ignorant. Perfectly applicable use of the word. Everybody that gets it knows that they're ignorant. People that believe that the earth is flat are ignorant.

      But I didn't say that my goal is to not have them impose their beliefs on me. As I said, my concern is mainly for the abuse that they inflict on their children and on people that they don't like. If they accepted evolution and started supporting gay marriage then I wouldn't be half as aggressive as I am towards them. I still think that the sky daddy thing is ridiculous but I have weed so I suppose they can have their sky daddy if they really need him that bad.
      They are only ignorant if they don't know of the arguments for the belief that the earth is round. If they do know those arguments and still believe in a flat earth then they are not ignorant but simply hold a different perspective. Said another way, I could just as easily call you ignorant of the reasons why one would believe in a flat earth.

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    18. #18
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      Who said anything about abusing your children?
      That's what we're talking about isn't it? Teaching children creationism?

      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      I actually think it is kind of funny that you are getting so mad. I really don't care what you actually think and some of your answers were actually what I was expecting to hear based off the first question. I just can't believe how disrecpectful and mad one can get so quickly...
      I'm actually not as mad as you think I am. Child abuse, misogyny and making people that aren't heterosexual second class citizens do make me a little mad though. Those ideas don't deserve respect. Do you think they do?
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    19. #19
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      They are only ignorant if they don't know of the arguments for the belief that the earth is round. If they do know those arguments and still believe in a flat earth then they are not ignorant but simply hold a different perspective. Said another way, I could just as easily call you ignorant of the reasons why one would believe in a flat earth.

      If they understand the arguments for a round earth and they don't accept it, than they are stupid. I don't feel bad saying that because I don't say it lightly. I may say it a lot but if you look, you'll see that I say it about very few things. The big bang for example is preeeeettttyyy solid but i'm not going to call somebody stupid for not believing in it if they understand the arguments for it. It's not air tight enough to call a fact.

      Evolution and a round earth are straight up facts. No intelligent person could understand the arguments for them and not accept them. I don't care what their IQ is.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    20. #20
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      If they understand the arguments for a round earth and they don't accept it, than they are stupid. I don't feel bad saying that because I don't say it lightly. I may say it a lot but if you look, you'll see that I say it about very few things. The big bang for example is preeeeettttyyy solid but i'm not going to call somebody stupid for not believing in it if they understand the arguments for it. It's not air tight enough to call a fact.

      Evolution and a round earth are straight up facts. No intelligent person could understand the arguments for them and not accept them. I don't care what their IQ is.
      You only believe these things because your particular world view is rigid and unyielding. This is not neccessarily a fault, it is but one perspective. There are many things that you may not know of that go in to a decision to believe a thing besides mere facts.

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    21. #21
      Member davej's Avatar
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      My apologies if I missed understood you for being mad. There is a big difference inbetween abusing a child and a teacher teaching a child something you do not believe in. I don't believe that sex ed should be taught in school but it happens. You may have a law suit on your hands against the school system if in fact it is a public school.

      Also, I don't have a problem with gays getting married so don't throw me into that group. Sure the Bible teaches against it but what business is it of mine. i'm not the one to judge because I know I am not perfect myself.
      The Bible states, those without sin cast the first stone.
      I do know that if they get married in a state that allows it, then it will be legal in the state they live in. If something was that important to me, I would do whatever it took to get it done.
      My wife's best friend is a guy. He is gay, she has known him for a long time and guess what, he has become a really good friend of mine as well. i don't look at homosexual's as "second class".

      AS far as creationism goes, I believe in the Bible. I believe what it says. Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe in science. You believe what science says. I don't condone you for that so why condone me?
      You are mad that people think homosexuals are second class but from what it sounds, you think Christians are second calss. What's the difference?
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    22. #22
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      You only believe these things because your particular world view is rigid and unyielding. This is not neccessarily a fault, it is but one perspective. There are many things that you may not know of that go in to a decision to believe a thing besides mere facts.
      I have no fundamental problem in believing things beyond facts. Real and honest facts are few and far between. Only believing in facts would be a sparse and empty world view, would it not? I do have a fundamental problem with believing something in contradiction to facts to the extent that one would be compelled to force it on a child.

      Our beliefs are a big part of what make us what we are. Mutually agreed upon "facts" are what allow us to function as a cohesive society. Those "facts" not being in agreement with real facts can turn into bad news real quick.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    23. #23
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by davej View Post
      AS far as creationism goes, I believe in the Bible. I believe what it says. Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe in science. You believe what science says. I don't condone you for that so why condone me?
      You are mad that people think homosexuals are second class but from what it sounds, you think Christians are second calss. What's the difference?
      My apologies for lumping you in. I jump the gun sometimes.

      As for the whole creationism vs. reality thing, boxing a child into a set of narrow beliefs is abuse. You do not know who they are well enough to make that decision for them: no one does.

      As for the symmetry of the situation that you seem to be implying, again, it doesn't exists. People say that comparing science to religion is like comparing apples to oranges. They are right. Prove to me that creationism is real. I can even have an open mind about it. Give me a factual proof that the biblical creation happened. You can't?

      I can give you a logical proof that evolution happened but you are not open minded enough to listen to it. A lot of scientists didn't want to believe it but the facts are soooooooo overwhelming that they had to accept it because that's what scientists do: accept facts.

      So literal biblical creation happened or evolution happened. Which one is it? The one with overwhelming evidence or the one that comes from a book that you only believe half of anyways?
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    24. #24
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      I have no fundamental problem in believing things beyond facts. Real and honest facts are few and far between. Only believing in facts would be a sparse and empty world view, would it not? I do have a fundamental problem with believing something in contradiction to facts to the extent that one would be compelled to force it on a child.

      Our beliefs are a big part of what make us what we are. Mutually agreed upon "facts" are what allow us to function as a cohesive society. Those "facts" not being in agreement with real facts can turn into bad news real quick.
      What you claim to be arguing for and what you appear to be arguing for are at odds with each other. You seem to be claiming that you are against forcing belief onto someone else, especially when a large majority is doing it, and yet you expound the virtues of accepting consentual facts. You even put the word facts in quotations which seems to allude to the impermanent and socially subjective nature of the word. Which is it, do you think the minority should accept the majority's authoritative proclamation of fact or not? I have to say, what it sounds like to me is simply a realization that your belief system has become the majority and you feel that if you don't stamp out the minority as soon as possible, they may regain a foothold.
      Last edited by Xaqaria; 09-23-2009 at 09:10 AM.

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    25. #25
      Member davej's Avatar
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      I am open minded to listen, not saying i will accept it.
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