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    1. #1
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      Atheism Test

      This test is for atheists only.

      Are you an honest atheist?
      If yes click spoiler

      Spoiler for Yes:


      Spoiler for Yes:


      Spoiler for 100%:


      Spoiler for 10% or below:


      Spoiler for 100%:


      Spoiler for 10% or less:


      Are you now an agnostic?

      Spoiler for Still an Atheist:


      Spoiler for Now an Agnostic?:


      Spoiler for Not sure?:

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      Conclusion: Atheists have access to a very small percentage of all the information in the universe.

      PS

      Are you an agnostic?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Mark75 View Post
      Conclusion: Atheists have access to a very small percentage of all the information in the universe.

      PS

      Are you an agnostic?
      Read my posts

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      I'm guessing no. What percentage of the universe's knowledge did you say you had access to, again?

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      King of All Wild Things Tarsier's Avatar
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      Mark is a numpty.
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      but there is considerable evidence to suggest the reality of an intelligent, caring Creator God
      There is? <_<

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      Cosmic Citizen ExoByte's Avatar
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      How is this test for Atheists only?

      The same logic can apply to religious people. Just change "Atheist" to <religion of choice> and change the phrasing of the 'kicker.'


      These are the results of your test. The pie chart below is a measure of what you personally do and do not know.Based upon what you don't know, how can you claim to know that any God does not exists? Is it possible that God could not exist outside the limits of and you're only limited by your knowledge? If you think that it is possible that God might not exist, welcome to agnosticism.
      Not to mention it is possible to be both Agnostic and Atheist, as well as Agnostic and Religious. You can still say "I don't believe in God (Atheist), but I could be wrong in my beliefs/but I can't prove he doesn't exist/don't know if he exists or not for certain/other. (Agnostic)."

      Same with religious people. There are some who say "I believe in God, but I can't prove his existence/don't know for sure if he exists/etc."

      Agnosticism is merely contending that you cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God. It takes no stance on his existence or non-existence, which allows it to be paired with things that do contend his existence or non-existence.


      You can still accept or reject god, thereby being Atheistic or Theistic, and be humble enough to contend it is not possible to ultimately know the truth. The two are not mutually exclusive, and you don't need to know all the knowledge to possess a belief.

      I don't know every detail about chemistry, physics, biology, astronomy, quantum physics or other sciences, but I know enough to make judgments based upon that information which are likely pretty accurate.

      TL;DR = This thread is fail.
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      Well said ^^

    9. #9
      Member Photolysis's Avatar
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      Are you now an agnostic?
      Agnosticism - not believing one knows something for definite

      Atheism - lack of belief in any gods

      Agnostic atheism - not believing in any gods, whilst not stating for definite that none exist . The only rational position for anyone scientific.

      (though this does not prohibit the rejection of logically unsound ideas, like an omnipotent, omnscience, all loving god that allows free will (whilst knowing the outcome), or loves people and has the power to intervene for the better but doesn't)

      Got that? I hope so.


      If you are not sure, that is a good sign. I cannot prove that God exists, but there is considerable evidence to suggest the reality of an intelligent, caring Creator God. Once you have come to that conclusion, you can do the experiment that the Bible says will confirm the reality of a personal, interactive God.
      /facepalm

      I cannot prove that God exists
      Just like you can't prove Allah, Shiva, Zeus, Isis, Thor, or any of the other gods that have the exact same evidence as the Christian god. Blinded by your belief, you are completely unable to see how you arbitrarily accept one set of 'evidence' and deny all other gods even though they use the same 'evidence'.

      you can do the experiment
      In this thread, kingerman states that his omnipotent deity is not beyond science and can be tested empirically!

      Enter the percentage of all human knowledge that you personally possess
      Some have broader knowledge than others. And even to you, it should be apparent there is a large degree of difference in the amount of knowledge between the more intelligent and educated people, and the less intelligent and uneducated.

      And knowledge with regards to what? I could have lots of knowledge on pop culture, economics, law, or any other non-science domain, which would leave me completely unable to refute science. Not that stops people here from trying!

      Now another interesting thing, which several people on this forum have displayed actually. The Dunning–Kruger effect. This is where completely ignorant and unintelligent people nevertheless rate themselves as intelligent and knowledgeable (I'm sure many of the atheists here can think of a good example), being completely unaware of their lack of knowledge.

      Oh, and /facepalm

      Edit: Missed this point out, but ExoByte made it anyway so it's all good. You can reverse this on theists. Listen to the pink bunny guy!
      Last edited by Photolysis; 10-08-2009 at 09:58 AM.

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      No guys, you see... Kingerman isn't like we "false" atheists who are really in the closet agnostics, he actually knows that there is a god. He knows that he doesn't know anything about the universe. Even less than the evil, conspiring "false" atheist scientists actually, but, you see, he "feels" God. And through that feeling he knows exactly what kind of god it is, how the universe doesn't work and what actually happened in the history of this universe. I understand why somebody to who's belief it's essential not to doubt his religion or the existence of god. What I don't understand is what makes that person think that he's "qualified" to preach on how weak atheism is and how all those who think they are atheist are actually agnostic. I don't really see the point to this thread.
      Last edited by Bonsay; 10-08-2009 at 11:06 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by SomeDreamer View Post
      There is? <_<
      Spiritual Realm

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      Spiritual Realm
      Not because that's the most reliable direction to turn for actual evidence but okay <_< Prove one shaky foundation through another shaky foundation? Yeah right.

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      Cosmic Citizen ExoByte's Avatar
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      I love how he ignored both my and photolysis' logical refutations of his post. I think that such valid arguments warrant a response.
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      I know that Christians are supposed to be the ones who believe a lot of myths. However, the vast majority of atheists believe myths such as religion is the primary cause of wars, and the vast amount of atrocities have been caused by religious people, the Bible has been vastly changed over the centuries, Paul invented Christianity, and the list goes on and on. Find your favorite myth below and read the article so that you won't embarrass yourself in the future.

      Atheists have Proven God Does Not Exist. Right?
      by Rich Deem
      Introduction

      Is it possible to prove that God does not exist? Of course, it is not possible to prove that all possible gods could not exist, since we do not possess all possible facts. Although we do not have a complete understanding of the universe, it is possible to prove that certain specific gods could not exist, using logical arguments. However, since this is a Christian site, we are interested if there are proofs that the God of Christianity does not exist. It is important to correctly describe the God of Christianity, since arguing against the existence of a lesser god is not relevant. Therefore, for the sake of accuracy, in arguing against the existence of the Christian God, one must rely upon what the Bible claims as attributes of this God - regardless of whether or not one accepts the Bible as being true. This page will examine arguments proposed to prove the non-existence of the Christian God, using evidence from the Bible and science. Here are some of the classic arguments and rebuttals. Click on the links to the right or scroll down to read each argument.
      Proof #1: The theodice problem:

      We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?

      It is true that God cannot be both almighty and good if you restrict Him to our level - three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. However, this God is not the God of reality or Christianity, since both the Bible and science would indicate that God must exist in more than three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. The Bible says the universe cannot contain God (1), indicating He must exist and operate in dimensions of space and time other than those to which we are confined. The Bible also says God created time and was acting before time began (2), confirming that God exists in at least two dimensions of time. A single dimension of time (a line) has a beginning point and can only travel in one direction. Two dimensions of time (a plane) has no beginning or ending so that a being existing in such a plane would be free to move to any point along any line of time within that plane.

      Both of these descriptions of God are confirmed by what we know from science. According to particle physics and relativity, at least nine dimensions of space existed at the creation of the universe. God must be able to operate in all of those nine dimensions in order to have created the universe. A verse from the book of Hebrews indicates God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us (3). Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time (4). Not only space, but also time has a beginning - at the moment of creation. Therefore, if God created the universe, He was acting before the creation of time, indicating He exists in at least two dimensions of time. If God existed in only one dimension of time, then He would have had to have been created at one point. The Bible says God was not created, but has existed from eternity past to eternity future.

      The main problem with this argument is a lack of understanding of the reason for the creation of the universe. The universe was not created to be good. God created the universe as a temporary testing site for creatures to choose to love Him or reject Him. God is good, but He has allowed His creatures free-will to do whatever they want within their limited dimensionality. God has designed the universe to operate under a set of physical principles, which He, only occasionally, suspends. If God were to suspend the laws of physics on a regular basis the universe would be a universe of chaos and unpredictability. Such as universe would not be a good testing ground for confused mortal beings. The purpose of the universe is to allow God's creatures the choice to love Him. Love is not possible without free-will. Therefore God chooses to allow His creatures the ability to do evil for the purpose of permitting them also to love. If God controlled everything we did, we could not demonstrate love, since we would be pre-programmed to respond. A computer cannot love, but free-will beings can.

      The temporary nature of the universe and created beings requires that the universe operate under the law of entropy. If there were no entropy, we could not be tested since we would, by definition, be eternal and not have to face the mortality of our existence. Such an existence would not require our dependence upon God, since we would never have to face Him. The law of entropy guarantees our mortality and that we will suffer pain and death at some point. Neither pain nor death is evil from a Christian perspective. For example, pain is a necessary function in our lives. If we could not feel pain, we would end up causing serious damage to ourselves. Whenever I get burned, I move my hand rapidly away from the source of the pain. If I had no pain receptors, I would probably continue to burn my hand until I noticed the smoke. This would obviously not be a good thing to do. Likewise, death is required in a universe governed by entropy. Without animal death, very soon all the carbon on the earth would be bound in living organisms, with none available for photosynthesis.

      Most atheists define evil according to their own interpretation. By defining evil as things they don't like, they have created a circular argument guaranteed to "prove the non-existence" of God. The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings.

      Atheists say that since only God can create, therefore He must have created evil. However, at this point the atheist has redefined the meaning of create. Evil was not created. Evil is manifested (committed) by free-will beings. Nice play on words, but it doesn't stand up to examination.


      Proof #2: Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

      Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies only to humans, since we a restricted to only one dimension of time. God, existing in two or more dimensions of time can know all properties of all particles, since He can exist at any point on our line of time any numbers of times. Therefore, God can measure both the position of a particle, remain at the same point on our line of time, then measure the speed of the same particle. Two dimensions of time allow one to do some pretty awesome things. Think about the implications of this characteristic of God.

      Proof #3: The ontological evidence

      It is necessary that God is a being that is worth worshipping, so if there is no being worth worshipping there cannot be a God. Not any of the existing religions can provide such a God. Well if there is a being that has either failed or not tried to communicate with us that being is not worth worshipping either, so the ontological evidence against God holds, even without complete knowledge of the world.

      There are several hundred million Christians who believe the Christian God is worth worshipping. However, there are other religions which worship other Gods. Therefore, this cannot be a valid criteria for determining whether God exists or not.

      God both has and continues to communicate with humans. Men with which He has communicated have written His words in the Bible. Those who are born-again Christians communicate with God on a daily basis. When I was an agnostic, I didn't believe this could be possible. However, when I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, His Spirit indwells me and talks to me (The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16).

      There is a test, based on the ontological evidence against God, that you can do to try the existence of God. Pray, and ask God to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that God exists, send me the evidence. If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1). So if you get no response there is no God.

      I am surprised that this example is listed as a test for the Christian God. There are some major problems with the validity of this test, since the Bible tells us this test will fail. The Old Testament tells us not to test God (5). This concept was reinforced by Jesus when He was tempted by Satan, who told Him to jump off the temple wall. Jesus cited the same verse from Deuteronomy not to test God (6). Therefore the only thing this test proves is that God is not the God of some non-Christian religion.

      However, there is a test you can do which will give valid results. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16) "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21) This is the only valid direct test for the Christian God's existence. However, it will cost you your life (7), and require you to bend your knee in submission (8). I can tell you from experience that Jesus will follow through with His promise and reveal Himself to you, and surprisingly, you will be filled with great joy (9).

      "God is defined to be infinite, in which case it is not possible for there to be anything other than God because "infinite" is all-inclusive. But if there is nothing other than God then either God cannot be said to exist for the reason just explained, or God is the known world, in which case, by definition, God is not a God."

      The Bible never defines God as infinite, but defines Him as existing beyond the limitations of our four dimensional universe. This does not mean that He is infinite. Some Christians have said that God is infinite, but this concept cannot be supported biblically. The only characteristic of God described as infinite is His knowledge or understanding (10). Therefore, the argument does not hold, since the God of Christianity is not described as being physically infinite.
      yer Would Have Brought World Peace?

      Proof #4: Occam's razor

      Occam's razor was formulated by William of Occam (1285-1349) and says: "Non est ponenda pluralites sive necessitate" or in English: "Do not multiply entities unless necessarily". It is a principle for scientific labor which means that one should use a simple explanation with a few explanatory premises before a more complex one.

      Let's say that everything must be created, and that was done by an omnipotent God. A God which stands above time, space, moral and existence, which is self containing and in himself has his own cause. This entity can surely be replaced by the known world. The world stands above time, space, moral, existence, is self containing and in it has it's own meaning.

      Occam's razor is actually a good argument for the existence of God. I will explain shortly. Contrary to the statements above, the universe cannot replace God as explanation for its own existence. The universe is finite in both size and time. The universe had a beginning in finite time at the moment of the Big Bang. How did this universe decide to create itself? How did the universe design itself with physical laws and parameters exactly fine tuned to support life? The laws of physics are designed with such precision that it is almost inconceivable that they could be the result of chance. For example, take the ratio of the number of electrons to protons. This ratio must be exactly equal to one to one to better than one part in 1037 (10 to the 37th power, or "1" followed by 37 zeros), otherwise electromagnetic forces would have superseded gravitational forces and no galaxies, stars or planets would have ever formed in the entire history of the universe. The likelihood of this occurring by chance is described below:

      One part in 1037 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billion of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037.11

      Other constants of physics, such as the expansion rate of the universe, are fine-tuned even more delicately, as small as one part in 1055. Random chance does not design such a well-crafted universe. All the atheistic explanations for such an exquisitely defined universe require the presence of trillions of other universes, of which ours is the one which happened, by chance, to have the exact physics required for the formation of galaxies, stars and planets. Therefore the atheistic explanation actually goes against Occam's razor since it requires some mechanism by which universes can sprout from some super universe and randomly change their laws of physics. If one were to calculate the number of universes required, by chance, to have the exact physics required for the formation of galaxies, stars and planets, it would exceed 1010000 (talk about multiplying entities!). The mechanism by which physical laws could randomly evolve would add further complexity. Design by an intelligent designer is obviously a much simpler explanation. Check these papers for some of the other parameters for both the universe and our planet, which are designed to exact standards.

      The statement that "the world stands above time" is false. The universe stands within time, having come into existence at time = 0. See Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time.

      "Most theists agree that God has a nature. Then we must raise the question, who created God's nature? If we just accept that God has a nature and exists without a cause, why not say that the known world just is and that the laws of physics are what they are, without a cause?"

      God is uncreated, therefore His nature is just as eternal as He is. Although it is possible the universe and the physical laws could exist without a cause, 1 in 1010000 is not exactly what one would call good betting odds. It would be much more likely that your car's engine would thermodynamically reverse itself (i.e., freeze solid instead of warm up) every time you started it.
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      Proof #5: Some things are impossible to do

      There are things that are impossible to do. For example nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap. It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 666. You can not go back in time (without passing an infinite entropy barrier). The number of things that are impossible to do are almost infinite. If God were to be almighty he would be able to do them, but it's impossible to do so.

      Contradictions are not possible by definition. Therefore they are impossible by definition in this four dimensional universe. All the things that are impossible in our universe are so because they are defined to be impossible. If you restrict God to our four dimensional universe, He would, likewise, be unable to do those things. However, God is not restricted to our universe. In addition, God can do anything if He changed the laws of physics, which He promises to do in the New Creation.

      Some people say that he can only do things that are logically possible to do, but what is? Is it logically possible to walk on water? Is it logically possible to rise from the dead? Is it logically possible to stand above time, space and all other dimensions - and still exist? I'd say that everything which violates the laws of physics are logically impossible and thus omnipotence is logically impossible. Besides if omnipotence is a relative quality there is no way to tell omnipotence from non-omnipotence. For omnipotence to be a valid expression it must be absolute, but we have no objective criteria to measure omnipotence so the word itself is useless.

      Definition of miracle: Something that violates the laws of physics. God can suspend the laws of physics to provide proof for His existence. He does this on occasion, but not routinely, since routine suspension of physical laws would drive us crazy - nothing would be predictable. Not only is it logically possible to stand above our dimensions of time and space, it is required, according to particle physics studies, for the universe to have come into existence.


      Proof #6: God's omniscience restricts His free will

      Also, if God knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus God's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If God has no free will God is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If God stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if God stands above all dimensions God is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

      The Christian God exists in at least two time dimensions, therefore His free-will is not hindered by our dimension of time. He stands both above and within our time line, since our line of time runs through His plane of time. The argument totally falls apart at this point.

      Proof #7: God cannot be almighty and allow free will simultaneously

      Besides there can exist no free wills at all if God is almighty. If you had a free will, God wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.

      The two dimensions of time take care of this one, too. God knows what each person will do and can put him anywhere in our time line to accomplish His purposes. Complete

      free-will and complete predestination is possible in two dimensions of time. However, this concept may require some time to think about.

      Proof #8: God must be created so why does the universe need a Creator

      If everything must have been created, then God must have been created as well. If God is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

      The Christian God exists in two dimensions of time, by definition being uncreated. The universe exists in only one dimension of time, which Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose tell us must have begun at the moment of the Big Bang. Therefore the universe must have been created at the beginning of our dimension of time. Most scientists agree that the universe had a beginning. It is possible that some multiverse (super-universe) created our universe, but there is no observational evidence to support this idea. Despite the lack of evidence, most atheists who know anything about cosmology believe in the existence of some kind of multiverse.

      Proof #9: If God created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent.

      The logical conclusion is that God must live outside of our dimensions of time and space in addition to living within our dimensions of time and space. The unstated assumption that God cannot live both within and outside space and time simultaneously is false. Since science tells us for God to exist and to have created the universe, He must exist in at least 11 dimensions of space and time (the four within the dimensions of our universe and at least 7 outside of those dimensions). Therefore He is extradimensional, and probably not composed of ordinary matter (12), but this does not make Him non-existent. The Bible is also clear that God exists both within our universe and outside of it (1).

      Proof #10: God has never contacted me. He must not exist.

      We would never notice God: This is not an evidence against God, but rather describes the lack of sense in praying to a God who stands above time.

      However, the Christian God exists both within and outside of our single dimension of time. Existing in at least two dimensions of time, God is not restricted to always following our time line, but can, through His second dimension of time, spend as much time as He likes at any point on our time line. This concept is stated biblically in 2 Peter (13). Therefore, if 100 million people are praying to Him simultaneously, He is able to stay at that point in our time line for as long as necessary to hear and respond to their prayers.

      Proof #11: God cannot be involved in our universe if He stands above our time dimension

      If God stands above time and created time and space he can not be the first link in a time dependent chain of events. Rather he would affect every step in all chains, and we would only see God in the laws of physics (Davies, 1983, chapter 4). This God is an unnecessary entity to describe the world and should be removed with Occam's razor.

      Again, the author fails to recognize the Christian God exists in at least two dimensions of time, as such He is not bound by the chains of events tied to our single dimension of time. Davies book is out of date and he lacks understanding of Christian doctrine. His later comments reflect a different understanding of the universe and its design:

      * "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming". (14)
      * "The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose". (15)


      Proof #12: If God existed, prayer would have already changed the world into the best possible world.

      If somebody would pray to God and God would listen, the laws would change to achieve the desired result. Thus the world would be different and the prayer would never have been said. Besides God would already (in an "above time" sense of view) know that you would pray, and already have changed the world. Prayers would be totally meaningless. We would already live in the best world possible, and any prayer would be to doubt the wisdom of God.

      Again, a complete lack of understanding of the Christian reason for prayer. Prayer is communication with God. Communication is a two way conversation, not a monologue of telling God what to do. If Christians were perfect, every prayer would be answered because we would always be within the will of God. However, as most people are well aware, Christians are not perfect and often pray against God's will. God will not do anything against His will and therefore will not grant our selfish requests. I could pray that God would let me win the lottery (if I played it). However, God knows that I would become greedy, buy all kinds of computers and gadgets, and ignore Him. It is in my best interest that I remain middle class (it might even be better for my spiritual life if I become poor - I hope not!). The main problem is that we are stupid and selfish creatures, and don't really know what is best for us. However, God, being omniscient, does know what is best for us (16). Therefore, the purpose of prayer is not to tell God what to do, but to be conformed to the will of God (i.e., listen to Him).

      Proof#13: Only things that can be sensed with the five senses are meaningful to discus. Therefore, all discussion about God is meaningless.

      Logical positivism is based upon the verification principle, which states that for a statement to be meaningful, it has to be either true by definition or verifiable by one or more of the five senses. This means that all discussion about God should be considered meaningless. However, the verification principle itself fails its own test, since it cannot be verified by any of the five senses. It is a self-refuting principle, and, therefore, logically flawed.

      Nobody really believes in God

      Love Your God With All Your Mind: The Role of Reason in the Life of the SoulMany atheists tend to stereotype Christians as stupid, uneducated people. However, I personally know dozens of scientists who are Christians, and not only believe in God, but can rationally present evidence for His existence. In our department at the Research Institute of Cedars-Sinai Medical Center we have no atheists - although we have one agnostic. All the other people - 4 M.D.'s, 2 Ph.D.'s, 3 R.N.'s, and the others, with B.S.'s or M.S.'s - are theistic. Christianity specifically calls people to use their brains. As Robert Griffiths (Heinemann prize in mathematical physics) stated:

      "If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use." (17)

      It is the atheist who now denies the implications of modern cosmology and physics because they imply the existence of a Creator. Those who believe the Big Bang correctly describes the origin of the universe, must admit that the universe had a beginning in finite time and space. Did it just pop into existence on its own? Did it just happen to have exactly the right physical laws and constants required for life? It is the atheist who must believe in miracles to explain our existence. Therefore, John Gribbin, an atheist physicist has stated:

      "The biggest problem with the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe is philosophical - perhaps even theological - what was there before the bang?" (18)

      The primary objection to the Big Bang and its implications is this "God problem," not because of a lack of scientific evidence. Geoffrey Burbidge, astronomer from U.C. San Diego has recognized the implications of the 1992 COBE satellite discoveries, when he complained that his fellow astronomers were rushing off to join, "the First Church of Christ of the Big Bang." (19)

      The fact that the evidence in support of the existence of God has increased in recent years is also a problem. According to atheists, science is supposed to get rid of the gaps, so that there is no longer any room for a "god of the gaps." This evidence has convinced some famous atheists to become deists (e.g., Antony Flew) or even Christians (e.g., Frank Tipler).

      If God exists, how can we know what religion properly describes Him?

      If God is so mysterious, how can we know anything about him? Through the Bible? How do we know that the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedha books, for example, are the words of God? (or the Bible if you believe in any of the other two books). Considering the cruelties that have been made in the name of God, how do we know that not all religions are made by Satan?

      The God of the Koran and Hindu Vedas are Gods restricted to the time and space dimensions of this universe and, therefore, are logically impossible (check out some of your own proofs). In addition, most of these books contain scientific absurdities. All the so-called holy books base their claim of authority on the basis of fulfilled prophecy. Most of these prophecies are either vague or conditional, making them essentially untestable. The highest percentage of prophecy fulfillment, other than the Bible is 50%, with many other prophecies proven to be false. In contrast, the Bible names people, places and dates in remarkable detail, with 2,000 of the nearly 2,500 prophecies already fulfilled, and none provably false. The remaining prophecies are reserved for the end-times, which have yet to have happened.

      I absolutely agree with atheists who say that many atrocious things have been done in the name of God, even in the name of Christianity. However, these atrocities were not perpetrated by God, but by evil human beings. Remember the words of Jesus:

      "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

      Not all who claim the name of Jesus are actually His disciples. My guess is that in even the best of Christian churches only about half of the people truly are Christians. Christianity should be judged on the basis of what Jesus said and did, not on the basis of what people do who merely claim to be Christians.


      "Proofs" claiming to falsify the existence of the Christian God tend to fall into the logical error of strawman - misrepresenting the true nature of the God of the Bible in order to demonstrate some "impossibility." In contrast, the scientific evidence supporting the existence of God has increased markedly in the past few years.

    15. #15
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      I love how he ignored both my and photolysis' logical refutations of his post. I think that such valid arguments warrant a response.
      Maybe he's too awesome for such arguments?

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      Why do you think an atheist would have a great need to prove a deity does not exist? For me, it is merely that there is no reason to worship thin air or worship anything to that matter. I have no need to deny deities any more than I feel like. I know that there won't be reasonable, logical argument against my claim. The scales are more on my side, thus I have no need to argue fiercely. ( unlike certain theists)

      As long as your dealings with your god are based on faith or belief, you'll never get me on your boat. Even if you had proof, even if god spoke to me, I wouldn't follow such a god as i.e Bible describes. That deity has nothing to give for me in return. Only a fool follows a fool.
      Last edited by Unelias; 10-08-2009 at 01:26 PM.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    17. #17
      Member Photolysis's Avatar
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      Kingerman's Wall of Text (Critical) hits You for #DIV/0! damage (#DIV/0! overkill)
      You die

      What is it about these people?

      "You can't disprove God"
      "We never said we could, don't strawman"
      "See how the silly atheists continue to try and disprove God!"

      And man, I really hate it when people copy-paste shitty articles of stupid length that are badly written and full of tired myths that have been debunked countless times before.

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      The delusion that bending science and philosophy to validate a specific religion, like Christianity in this instance, actually works always makes me laugh.

      Apparently it's ok to copy paste random texts from the internet because apparently nobody here is worthy of an actual debate. So I'll just post some youtube videos, not that I expect kingerman to watch them, or that it has anything to do with the thread theme directly.


      Last edited by Bonsay; 10-08-2009 at 01:30 PM.
      C:\Documents and Settings\Akul\My Documents\My Pictures\Sig.gif

    19. #19
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      The delusion that bending science and philosophy to validate a specific religion, like Christianity in this instance, always makes me laugh.
      It is funny isn't it. Watch as the misuse and bastardisation of science come together to specifically prove the Christian God, and totally disprove Allah at the same time!

      Apparently it's ok to copy paste random texts from the internet because apparently nobody here is worthy of an actual debate.
      It's okay, we all know it's because kingerman can't think for himself. Notice the trend? "I don't understand you or don't know anything, so rather than admit that, here's a big article I'll use to deflect it".

      Debate is useless on religion anyway. The religious arguments won't work because they've been dismissed before. The rational arguments won't work because the religious are too biased to consider them.

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      As I read the text, I couldn't help from noticing how transparent the explanations are when you try to turn everything in the benefit of Christianity.


      Most atheists define evil according to their own interpretation. By defining evil as things they don't like, they have created a circular argument guaranteed to "prove the non-existence" of God. The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings.
      Why do you think there is some kind of grand fight between trivial concepts like good or evil? Concept of evil exists in religion, because it fortifies the role of benelovent deity. The Christian definition of evil is the things the church does not want people to do. Simple as that.

      Nobody can go claiming what is right or wrong, good or evil. There are just consequences and ways they affect to that individual. Therefore, a single person can describe something as " bad for me or good for me". But it is outrageous to say there would be some kind of universal moral or definion for evil. There is no evil.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      That test is flawed. Since when are believers concerned with the scientific knowledge? They have always relied on revelations from god.

      But even if this test is taken seriously, then it can be turned against believers in the same way. If you know so little, then how can you know that god does exist?

    22. #22
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      Those videos are great Bonsay, thanks a lot

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      Quote Originally Posted by Arutad View Post
      But even if this test is taken seriously, then it can be turned against believers in the same way. If you know so little, then how can you know that god does exist?
      Because they believe so and have irrevokable faith. Strangely enough, they seem to think it is a valid reason to assume something compared to our logical arguments.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    24. #24
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      What Exo said in his first post. I'll add that there aren't any plain agnostics out there, only agnostic theists and agnostic atheitsts. It's either you do or do not believe in a deity of some sort. If you "don't know if he does" then you do not believe in a god and are therefore an atheist.
      Surrender your flesh. We demand it.

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      Kingerman's Wall of Text (Critical) hits You for #DIV/0! damage (#DIV/0! overkill)
      You die
      And Exo said everything else worth saying.

      [Edit] That was a BIG wall of text.

      [Edit2] Even for being a wall of text!

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