Thread: My question to nonspiritualists

It would be better if you gave us examples. Based on that one can decide on the probable answers. It's not that they have to make it up, they could also be deluding themselves.

If it turned out to be true? Again, what kind of paranormal things? If I see ghosts I could be crazy. If I got the power to summon elephants I don't know what I'd think about reality, probably that I'm crazy or dreaming. I really haven't seen any conclusive proof for anything called paranormal. So if you don't give me a specific event/power, I can't tell you how I think I'd react.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

It would be better if you gave us examples. Based on that one can decide on the probable answers. It's not that they have to make it up, they could also be deluding themselves.

If it turned out to be true? Again, what kind of paranormal things? If I see ghosts I could be crazy. If I got the power to summon elephants I don't know what I'd think about reality, probably that I'm crazy or dreaming. I really haven't seen any conclusive proof for anything called paranormal. So if you don't give me a specific event/power, I can't tell you how I think I'd react.

Okay then, mutual dreaming, or mutual hallucination.

After I'd make sure it's true. I'd go and win the Randi challenge. About my world view changing... I wouldn't think anything extra about reality, since I guess there wouldn't be anything new revealed to explain this mutual dreaming. I guess I'd try to figure out how two brains can create identical thoughts in two different places.

About it being real... I'd like to see it done a couple of times in controlled conditions. That's all I can think of. Personally I don't even know how "they" claim it's done, or how similar the mutual dreams are reported.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

How do you explain the paranormal?

There are many testimonies of people who report things such as mutual dreaming, supernatural beings, prophecies etc. and I think that if you look a few up, for there are many, it will be hard to believe that every single one of them is making it up. Or at least it is for me. Ironically, I would have to have an awful lot of faith not to believe them.

How would you react if an undeniably paranormal experience happened to you?

I know that you will accept there is a lot about the universe that we do not know; but don't these experiences show that there is a spirit world or subjective panorama out there, which although we might not be able to study it still shows that it exists? And, does this not therefore validate spirituality in effect?

I didn't want to address this specifically to 'atheists' because I am non theistic but I still accept the existence of a subjective world beyond this one, from what these testimonies tell me.

I cannot give you a documented case, but that is because I have not researched. It would make me think to much. If you are still unconvinced by any testimony then at least explain how you think you would treat it if you did experience something like this. How big of an impact do you think it would have on your worldview?

Þanks.

There are more than 6 billion people on this planet. It is not unlikely at all, that some of them will make something up, just go gain attention/create a delusion for themselves. Additionally, it is not unlikely that some of them have some really bizzare hallucinations.

I know that you will accept there is a lot about the universe that we do not know; but don't these experiences show that there is a spirit world or subjective panorama out there, which although we might not be able to study it still shows that it exists? And, does this not therefore validate spirituality in effect?

This quote specifically is an example of how easily we jump to illogical conclusions. As I said, there are more than 6 billion people in the world. Even if 100'000 people experienced something paranormal and described it thoroughly, it would still only be 0,0016666666%, and a majority of these could probably be explained through sicknesses, drugs, alcohol and psychological tremor. The rest are liers.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

How do you explain the paranormal?

What does this have to do with spirituality? Does spirituality depend on something happening in the physical world?

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I know that you will accept there is a lot about the universe that we do not know; but don't these experiences show that there is a spirit world or subjective panorama out there, which although we might not be able to study it still shows that it exists? And, does this not therefore validate spirituality in effect?

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I didn't want to address this specifically to 'atheists' because I am non theistic but I still accept the existence of a subjective world beyond this one, from what these testimonies tell me.

Again, does your version of spirituality depend on something like that? What if there was subjective panorama encompassing our world? How would that validate your spirituality?

It seems to me that unless you were able to describe on spiritual ground, how to experience it and how it interacts with our reality, and do it more accurately than other people ahead of time, the discovery of some subjective world beyond this one would have nothing to do with spirituality. It could just be another aspect of physical reality.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

How do you explain the paranormal?

Firstly, it's not up for anyone to "explain" the paranormal other than the people making the claim; they're the ones who have to provide evidence. I haven't seen a single case where this evidence is good and stands up.

I attribute all these reports to a mixture of the following:

Lies
Hallucinations
Delusions
Misinterpretations
Wishful Thinking / Confirmation Bias

it will be hard to believe that every single one of them is making it up

This is a very bad line of thinking:

Firstly, this can be applied to countless contradictory things. For example, some claim to experience the christian god, others feel the hindu god, or allah, or whatever. By this line of logic, you would have to believe all of these at once.

Secondly, not everyone will be making it up, at least intentionally. Many people are prone to confirmation bias and only want to confirm their pre-determined beliefs. Others misinterpret things, or selectively edit a story after the fact to make it sound more appealing, and then ultimately convince themselves that the edited story was genuine. People are prone to all kinds of things like this, even if it's not something conscious.

The human brain has 'glitches', and many things can cause hallucinations. It's been found that low frequency sound, and magnetic fields can give the indications of a presence, for example. The eye is more sensitive in low-level light in the corners; this can make impressionable people believe they've seen a ghost, particularly when the atmosphere is suitable.

Okay then, mutual dreaming, or mutual hallucination.

This is almost impossible to disprove. No one has independent access. We have no idea of seeing what such people have left out, forgotten, changed, ignored, and so on.

And don't even get me started on this subject.


One other point: people in general are utterly terrible at statistics, and the human brain intuitively does not seem strong in this area. We perform countless actions each day, and there are many chances for strange coincidences in our own lives, yet when these happen, many fall in to the trap of attributing significance to them.

This is worsened when you consider worldwide communication. Simple statistics means that some people on this planet will have very strange experiences.


One thing I've said in the past and will say again is it does amaze me somewhat how people who come to this site still readily buy in to such bullshit. It amazes me that they come to a site dedicated to an art where it is essential to realise your brain can be fooled (you have to realise a dream is an elaborate hallucination to have a lucid dream), and yet so many people seem to compartmentalise this and refuse to consider the idea that their "shared dreams" are simply a hallucination and confirmation bias at work.

In other words, such people refuse to believe they may be wrong as their senses are very reliable and yet have lucid dreams where they realise their senses are not so reliable after all. These people trust their senses to an extreme whilst simultaneously realising you can't do it. Doublethink at its finest.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

In other words, such people refuse to believe they may be wrong as their senses are very reliable and yet have lucid dreams where they realise their senses are not so reliable after all. These people trust their senses to an extreme whilst simultaneously realising you can't do it. Doublethink at its finest.

I just wanted to say that coming here, and experiencing life like lucid dreams, my perspective came out to be very different

not one where I wake up thinking 'how easily my brain fools me', but one where I question what is the difference between waking and sleeping all together. after all, both dreams and waking life are perceived by the brain via signals. we never experience 'reality' directly. it's always subjective. so if both the dream and the waking is experianced via brain signals, what's the real difference?



I can understand a healthy skepticism. I can understand not agreeing with the accepted intrepretation of popular phenomenons

but I think its silly and almost insane to pass off everything that you can't readily explain as having not happened at all. it would seem more likely, and more logical to assume that something is happening that is simply not readily explainable. that is after all, what science must do. science doesn't have the right to pass judgment and decide which phenomenons aren't worth investigating. until it investigates, all phenomenon should be treated the same

70,000 people.......SEVENTY THOUSAND people are said to have witnessed the miracle of fatima. people argue it was mass hysteria. but really think about what you are saying here, mass hysteria has to begin some where. even if it begins with one person screaming "THE SUN IS DANCING!" how long does that take to reach the last individuals amongst the 70,000? also, it was never discussed ahead of time what the 'miracle' would be.

virtually no one talks about the 'miracle' today. because it's too incredible, and so outside of people's comfort zones, they would just rather pretend nothing at all happened. you don't have to believe in their intrepretation of the 'miracle', but I think it's crazy to say all 70,000 individuals are either liars or delusional

this is only one example out of many

it's easy to call the miracle of fatima a hallucination, because there was no video footage of it

but we do have modern day 'miracles of fatima', of strange lights moving in strange ways for an entire city to see

the same is true for smaller phenomenons, such as ghosts. the thing you should understand about seeing ghosts is hollywood is wrong. most people have no idea they are staring at a 'ghost' when they are. they conclude that they are seeing a ghost only when the person in front of them completely disappears. most of the time it's only after the vision do they have fear, and not before or during

these accounts have happened in broad daylight, unexpectedly, and among more than one person

mass hysteria requires for something to be anxiously expected. not the unexpected. hallucinations mean only you are seeing it, not anyone else.

again, I'm not saying you have to believe in the supernatural. but at least be honest and admit we don't know everything to reality yet

I've had some freaky paranormal stuff happen to me, at the time i believed in it, but later on as i knew more about things i started calling them rationally. Anyway, i am agnostic, but people keep looking at me as a blind believer because i am not 100% on their side and i still look into some of these things wanting to believe, or not ruling it out (there is no justice...).

Anyway, i pretty much only follow the small evidence there really is, but it's more evidence of an outside perspective/awareness, not a spirit(really...what IS a spirit?), hopefully there will be more evidence in the next 2-3 years about an outside awareness from the aware project, it's not all rubbish like some people want you to think, but not every OBE is real, it's probably very small and you should only follow the OBE's that have accurate things proven instead of a afterlife viewing, because those can pretty much easily be ruled as hallucination, these verified things...not so much. But to follow this is your choice anyway, but to me this is the only thing that people should even bother following for the accurate results which cannot always be blindly called a couincidence. The biggest case is Pam Reynolds, but there is more if you look. Oh, and if anyone says the doctors stage this for publicity, they are on crack and just finding ways to try and dismiss it as fake.


But remember, this is for an outside awareness, not a spirit as i said "what is a spirit?".

Originally Posted by juroara

I just wanted to say that coming here, and experiencing life like lucid dreams, my perspective came out to be very different

not one where I wake up thinking 'how easily my brain fools me', but one where I question what is the difference between waking and sleeping all together. after all, both dreams and waking life are perceived by the brain via signals. we never experience 'reality' directly. it's always subjective. so if both the dream and the waking is experianced via brain signals, what's the real difference?



I can understand a healthy skepticism. I can understand not agreeing with the accepted intrepretation of popular phenomenons

but I think its silly and almost insane to pass off everything that you can't readily explain as having not happened at all. it would seem more likely, and more logical to assume that something is happening that is simply not readily explainable. that is after all, what science must do. science doesn't have the right to pass judgment and decide which phenomenons aren't worth investigating. until it investigates, all phenomenon should be treated the same

70,000 people.......SEVENTY THOUSAND people are said to have witnessed the miracle of fatima. people argue it was mass hysteria. but really think about what you are saying here, mass hysteria has to begin some where. even if it begins with one person screaming "THE SUN IS DANCING!" how long does that take to reach the last individuals amongst the 70,000? also, it was never discussed ahead of time what the 'miracle' would be.

virtually no one talks about the 'miracle' today. because it's too incredible, and so outside of people's comfort zones, they would just rather pretend nothing at all happened. you don't have to believe in their intrepretation of the 'miracle', but I think it's crazy to say all 70,000 individuals are either liars or delusional

this is only one example out of many

it's easy to call the miracle of fatima a hallucination, because there was no video footage of it

but we do have modern day 'miracles of fatima', of strange lights moving in strange ways for an entire city to see

the same is true for smaller phenomenons, such as ghosts. the thing you should understand about seeing ghosts is hollywood is wrong. most people have no idea they are staring at a 'ghost' when they are. they conclude that they are seeing a ghost only when the person in front of them completely disappears. most of the time it's only after the vision do they have fear, and not before or during

these accounts have happened in broad daylight, unexpectedly, and among more than one person

mass hysteria requires for something to be anxiously expected. not the unexpected. hallucinations mean only you are seeing it, not anyone else.

again, I'm not saying you have to believe in the supernatural. but at least be honest and admit we don't know everything to reality yet

I live in Portugal and I can say that religion is very strong here, specially among the older generations. It doesn't surprise me much that when thousands of people expecting a miracle look directly at the sun and see it dancing.

And if the sun was indeed dancing, why didn't the whole world see it? Why didn't the sudden rapid movement of the sun cause gravitational havoc among the solar system? The fact that just the people in Fatima (supposedly) saw the 'miracle' suggests it was a hallucination rather than a real objective event.

Not quite sure if unconventional flying objects classify as paranormal, but I've
seen my fair share of "objects" that behave nothing like any aircraft we have.
How do I explain it? I don't. It's only a handful of maybe's..
Maybe unmanned aircraft, maybe they have g-force compensators, maybe
they are not made by human beings.

The only other thing I've experienced on several occasions with what I'd call
stunning clarity (not only seeing it out of the corner of my eye, but directly)
are shadows that move across the wall of a room here, when there are no
open curtains and no other visual devices running, like televisions or
monitors. An entire wall went dark (only the one, the other walls remained
lit) at one point, and quickly regained its luminosity. It actually happened
directly in front of another person here, and they had claimed to notice
nothing out of the usual. Was I hallucinating? It's always possible, though I
have zero history with drugs or hallucinations.

Originally Posted by juroara

I think its silly and almost insane to pass off everything that you can't readily explain as having not happened at all.

I'm not saying certain people didn't have experiences, I'm simply stating that the explanations given (UFOs, spirits, whatever) can be attributed to a combination of factors.

science doesn't have the right to pass judgment and decide which phenomenons aren't worth investigating. until it investigates, all phenomenon should be treated the same

Science treats something without evidence as "this proposition is false until there is strong evidence otherwise". It treats all things like this. It's also what rational people should do as well.

70,000 people.......SEVENTY THOUSAND people are said to have witnessed the miracle of fatima.

This betrays a lack of understanding in logic, and Occams Razor.

A) The sun did change position and all 70 000 people saw it happen. No one else on the planet saw this happen, and more amazingly no one noticed the resulting change in gravitational forces and acceleration launching stuff off in to space.

B) The 70 000 people saw a hallucination or mirage (staring at the sun is also hardly good for one's eyesight). Or the number was smaller and was exaggerated. Or it was a misinterpretation of some other optical phenomenon (there are some interesting ideas on the wikipedia article).

Whatever explanation B is, however unlikely it is, A is still so much more unlikely that B is better.

it's easy to call the miracle of fatima a hallucination, because there was no video footage of it

No, it's easy to call it that because the alternative explanation is quite simply stupid

people argue it was mass hysteria. but really think about what you are saying here, mass hysteria has to begin some where. even if it begins with one person screaming "THE SUN IS DANCING!"

And thankfully we have a very good explanation for the "somewhere": hallucination.

again, I'm not saying you have to believe in the supernatural. but at least be honest and admit we don't know everything to reality yet

No one ever claimed that we know everything. This constant strawman or misinterpretation is tedious and tiring.

Additionally, a supernatural explanation is not an explanation at all. It is saying "you can't explain this, so here is the explanation". It's self-contradictory.

virtually no one talks about the 'miracle' today

Don't you find it interesting that for much of history there have been reports of utterly bizarre things. Monsters, sea being parted, miracles, and so on, yet in the modern era with science and communication, these events have almost completely stopped, and generally dramatically reduced in scale?

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that say, that modern technology could disprove stuff such as an entire sea being parted, would it?

Or why was Jesus only able to feed all those people before the age of camera phones?

Interesting eh?

First, you're confusing spirituality and paranormal bullshit. I consider myself spiritual in a lot of was, but I don't beleive or disbeleive in ghosts or shared dreaming or any of that. I just accept that it's not worth considering until it's proven to at least be plausible. Its not like religion, its probably nonsense, but belief in these things I dont see as detrimental to the health of society and our state as a spieces. I simply see no reason to believe these things without some sort of evidence.
Just because there is a great deal about this world we don't know or understand that doesn't mean that we should accept the testimonies of people who may or may not be telling the truth on blind faith/trust. I accept my ignorance, it would be a major folly to deal in absolutes regarding a question like this one.

Okay I got the question wrong but you know what I mean. An atheist or naturalist who took the paranormal seriously would have to rely on faith or belief in some 'magical' entity or otherworld to explain what had happened. Or at least that thoughts can fly. What is spirituality if not how people can connect with each other? It's not spiritual just to know your own self, it's spiritual to apply it and empathise it. This is why I had assumed that the paranormal indicated spirituality, because they play on a higher subjective world, not a different objective world.

Some paranormal events are either gross misinterpretations of understood phenomona, or true experiences of phenomona that's currently poorly understood.

Take ball lightning for example. There's a few scattered reports of it, some quite bizarre. But what sounds "fancier"; calling it a rare, poorly understood atmospheric phenomon or calling it an Angel from Heaven? Carl Sagan made a point of this about explanations for UFOs.

About miracles.

I have heard here and there stories about people who were cured by whatever they had from nothing. The next day they go back to the hospital or wherever and they have nomore of what they were suffering from. But take it like a grain of salt, it's some internet stories i have heard from different google searches of things, and by people from real life. No credible sources or anything. If they were real? who knows what cured them, we don't understand everything there is to know.