Thread: No Evidence of the paranormal?

I remember playing with the ouija board as a teenager. I moved it every SINGLE time, and my friends didn't have a clue. I even tried to convince myself that it wasn't actually me moving it but something else. Oi.

I know Ouija boards are fake someting about Ideomotor effect.But the thing is playing with Ouija boards can be an opening for demons to invade us

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

what are ghosts made of?

Ectoplasm :V

Originally Posted by kingerman

I know Ouija boards are fake someting about Ideomotor effect.But the thing is playing with Ouija boards can be an opening for demons to invade us

Do you realize how crazy that sounds? You also said they are fake, and demons can invade us. If it is fake, Demons can't invade us from a board.

Playing with a Ouija board is engaging in occultism.The item itself is an occultic object.

Are ghosts soluble?

Originally Posted by kingerman

First I'd like to clarify that there are no such things as ghosts the only spirits out roaming are angels and demons.

One of many items you state as fact, with nothing substantial to back it up. And by "substantial", I don't mean the quintessential 'paranormal' youtube videos, which take a huge leap of faith from 'hmm, that's strange, I wonder what that is', to 'OMG I DONT KNOW HOW THAT'S HAPPENING! IT"S A DEMON! IT'S GOTTA BE!" to believe.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Why don't you unbelievers try what the guy did in the first video,mess around with an ouija board and see what happens at night.

I've had one, for like 3 years. And even as someone who grew up with a curiosity toward the supernatural (that I still have), I've never had one remarkable experience. Not one. Sure, it's moved a time or two, but never without the accompaniment of stifled laughter or the finger twitching of others. And, often, just to test the validity, I would reduce the pressure from my fingertips, causing the pointer to tilt toward whoever was pressing on it, in order to move it.

Originally Posted by kingerman

There are indeed spirit beings who can connect with and appear in our physical world. The Bible identifies these beings as angels and demons.Demons are evil, deceptive, and destructive.So they can appear as your dead relative.Thus ghosts

More, rather resolute, statements presented as facts. Can you please provide evidence that these statements are true, without citing the Bible (a man-made book, posing as proof of an invisible God - which has been proven to have been altered numerous times, throughout history) as the basis for the claim.

Originally Posted by kingerman

I know Ouija boards are fake someting about Ideomotor effect.But the thing is playing with Ouija boards can be an opening for demons to invade us

...Playing with a Ouija board is engaging in occultism.The item itself is an occultic object.

This makes no sense. The Ouija board "is fake", but since it has a reputation as an occultist object (even though it's "fake"), playing with it can be an opening for demons to invade us? It seems like you have been caught up with believe anything you've been told about the occult, without testing to see if the claims are actually real. (And by testing, I don't mean having 1 or 2 questionable experiences, and saying "OMG, it's all true!" -which I liken to people mistaking what are most-likely dreams for 'astral projection').

Like I said plenty of times before, I'm interested in the possibility of the 'paranormal', but I don't just decide to believe something because it sounds cool, or mysterious, or because I couldn't readily explain it more reasonably. And I definitely don't believe something just because some other person told me that it's true (i.e; the Bible). Believe it or not, faith and critical thinking can occupy the same individual, at the same time. What's important is to know the difference between the two, and acknowledge them as such. If you have faith that the supernatural exists, then more power to you, but if you are going to argue the point, you are going to learn to use facts that contradict those which have been made by science. That's a tall order to fill, I know, and as of now, you're doing a horrible job.

Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by O'nus

How to prove Ouija is completely fake:

Have two or more people blindfolded and hold the ouija communicator

Have an extra person, not touching the communicator, simply watch and record the letters and answers the Ouija board gives.

Then just ask questions as normal, with only the spectator recording answers and giving no feedback.

Read the results.

100% of the time, the answers are complete nonsense.

~

You can't prove or disprove anything like that.


And come on guys, do people not know the potential of a Youtube service yet?

Originally Posted by really

You can't prove or disprove anything like that.


And come on guys, do people not yet know the potential of a Youtube service yet?

And why not? It's a perfectly good experiment. The spiritus ought not to have to have your eyes open in orderto communicate on a board.

~

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

One of many items you state as fact, with nothing substantial to back it up. And by "substantial", I don't mean the quintessential 'paranormal' youtube videos, which take a huge leap of faith from 'hmm, that's strange, I wonder what that is', to 'OMG I DONT KNOW HOW THAT'S HAPPENING! IT"S A DEMON! IT'S GOTTA BE!" to believe.

You won't like this answer but science is used to discover and interpret facts concerning the natural world. By your own question you are asking about the supernatural world. How do you expect to discover evidence about the supernatural by means of a methodology designed for the natural?

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I couldn't readily explain it more reasonably. And I definitely don't believe something just because some other person told me that it's true

There are paranormal research teams that use equipment to capture footage of these nature, there's even a live show,i think it's called Ghost adventures.These shows and many other people's testimonies can definitely prove that certain strange happenings can't be explained.

Proof that wrestling is not fake:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Proof that wrestling is not fake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNJdJOEtlyY

Originally Posted by kingerman

There are paranormal research teams that use equipment to capture footage of these nature, there's even a live show,i think it's called Ghost adventures.These shows and many other people's testimonies can definitely prove that certain strange happenings can't be explained.

There are more than 6 billion people on this planet. It is not unlikely at all, that some of them will make something up, just to gain attention/create a delusion for themselves. Additionally, it is not unlikely that some of them have some really bizzare hallucinations aswell.
Even if 100'000 people experienced something paranormal and described it thoroughly, it would still only be 0,0016666666% of the total population, and a majority of these could probably be explained through sicknesses, drugs, alcohol and psychological tremor. The rest are liers.

Oh, and I noticed the first video encouraged the viewer to be open minded.

Originally Posted by TheUnknownKadath

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNJdJOEtlyY

Oh no. That just made me cringe with embarrassment for him. It had to be fake. If not, I don't know whether to feel sorry for the guy or shoot him.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

This makes no sense. The Ouija board "is fake", but since it has a reputation as an occultist object (even though it's "fake"), playing with it can be an opening for demons to invade us? It seems like you have been caught up with believe anything you've been told about the occult, without testing to see if the claims are actually real. (And by testing, I don't mean having 1 or 2 questionable experiences, and saying "OMG, it's all true!" -which I liken to people mistaking what are most-likely dreams for 'astral projection').

Oneironaut is very correct here Kingerman.

Seeing as christians have a pathological fear of the occult, and as usual the old saying "we fear what we dont understand" would appear to be correct, lets have a little look at Astral Projection and the occult.

Astral projection has been a foundational practice of the occult for centuries. In the 16th century a series of 3 books was published by Henry Conelius Agrippa. Lets look at the title of chapter LXIV:

"How the passions of the mind change the body by way of imitation from some resemblance; also of the transforming and translating of men, and what force the imaginative power hath not only over the body, but the soul"

HE then talks at length about that which we at DVs would recognize immediatley as LDing :

"Upon this account some that are in a dream think they burn and are fearfully tormented as if they truely did burn, whenas the substance of the fire is not near them, but only a resembalance apprehended by their imaginations. And sometimes mens bodies are transformed, and transfigured and also transported and this often times when they are in a dream"

Curious no?

He goes on to give an account of Harman Clazomenius:

"it is reported that for several nights and days he would leave his body and and travel over many countries and return after he had viewed things and discoursed with persons at a great distance.............It is certain this is a fable, the soul never left the body"

Instructions for astral travel were given by Levi in the 19th Century by Levi in his "Docterine and Ritual of Trancandental Magic"

The works of Levi and Aggripa featured heavily in the teachings of the Hermetic Order of the Golden dawn at the start of the 20th Century. "Attainment of the Astral" was a core teaching of the lowest grades of the order and had to be mastered before advancing.

Crowley broke ranks with the Golden Dawn and published instructions on how to AP in his equinox journals. He also made it a key teaching of the first grades of the A.'.A.'. Those who read Crowleys instructions will find that his technique bears a remarkable similarity to that which we now call WILD.

Kenneth Grant who succeeded Crowley upon his death published a number of works in the 1950s where he talked to "The Purple Zone" - the boundary between sleep and awake where many strange phenomenen occur.

Again - we of DV's will immediately recognise these as HH's - the phenomenen is no longer "strange" - indeed we can now rationally explain it and understand what it really is.

Modern occult orders such as the Dragon Rogue no longer use the "old" terminology - instead their lower grade teaches "Mastery of Lucid Dreaming"

Lets also no longer use the old terminology for the occult. The occultist is a psyhconaut.

Crowley and many modern occultists do not beleive in angels or demons. Rather that these are psycological archetypes for our base fears and desires - and that there is value in learning to confront and gain control of these. This does not happen in the "real world" but rather in altered states of conciousness such as in LDs or chemically induced via powerful pshycoactive agents.

The paranormal is only that which cannot be explained yet. I beleive most if not all occult phenomen can be explained easily as being induced through alternate states of conciousness.

Its all in the mind Kingerman. The occultist/psyconaut knows this. Lets look at the closing line of the Kybalion :

The mind is ALL, the ALL is mind.

And also :

DEUS HOMO EST - god is man / man is god.

Your angels and demons are within Kingerman - and there is no god but man.

Oh BTW - the Ouija board is NOT occult. Crowley loathed seances - the Spirituist movement was rife in the early part of the last century. Crowley wrote at length that the Ouija board was a tool used by clever charlatans to releive the foolish of their hard earned cash.

I also remember you once posted a thread compaling about how the modern witchcraft movement had adopted LDing and using it for "dark arts". Well here's another little history lesson for you. Gerald Gardiner, the founder of the Wicca movement, Paid Crowley 400 pounds for the right to use the rituals and teachings of the OTO and A.'.A.'. in his new religion 50 years before Laberge was a throbing bulge in his fathers pants. Its fair to argue that the witches have a "right" to LD - they did after all pay.

Therefore Kingerman, one must wonder what you are doing here. As it would appear LDing is a "dark art" taught by oogah boogah scary occultists for centuries, then should a nice christian like you really be using occult practices?????

Originally Posted by kingerman

You won't like this answer but science is used to discover and interpret facts concerning the natural world. By your own question you are asking about the supernatural world. How do you expect to discover evidence about the supernatural by means of a methodology designed for the natural?

Easy. Because, if the 'supernatural' exists, the phenomena are, by definition, 'natural.'

Anything and everything can be explained, with the right methodology, and the right tools. For instance; as of now, many see 'demons' as supernatural concepts. If they are proven to exist, though, they are no longer 'supernatural'. They are 'natural' - hence, measurable by science.

What would keep these things in the realm of 'supernatural', is our not having the methodology or tools (as yet) to observe and quantify them. This doesn't mean they are outside the realm of science. It simply means that we, as humans, have not yet developed the tools/methods with which to observe and quantify them.

Your answer displays a misunderstanding of the nature of science, but your misconception is one that is wide-spread and (dare I say) understandable.

Originally Posted by kingerman

There are paranormal research teams that use equipment to capture footage of these nature, there's even a live show,i think it's called Ghost adventures.These shows and many other people's testimonies can definitely prove that certain strange happenings can't be explained.

I'm well aware of many of these paranormal research teams - and I have actually supported them, in previous threads - and there is more than one live show. The problem is that the conclusions met by these teams, in whole, come down to what is essentially a gray area - a gray area that you are trying to define in black and white terms.

When a paranormal investigation is successful, the conclusion amounts to "there is, as yet, no explanation for the investigated phenomena - that we have been able to conclude, in any certain terms - that completely excludes the possibility of the 'supernatural." That's it. Your folly is that you are taking what are basically "unsolved mysteries" and concluding them to have 'paranormal' answers.

Like I said, I'm open to the possibility of the paranormal. I advocate it all the time. Where I don't cross the line is concluding (and stating as fact) that the 'supernatural' exists. Why? Because I don't know that it does. Even though I'm open to it, I haven't been convinced that it does. And it's not like I'm some naysayer who just dissents against the idea. I'm actually all for it. But my faith is not as easily earned, simply because something has yet to be explained. I'm very comfortable with accepting unexplained phenomena as just what it is: Unexplained. I will count it (if it is convincing) as possible evidence of the 'paranormal', of which I have seen very much. But giving it a title of 'evidence of the paranormal', when it is nothing but a collection of videos which can't be measured in any way, outside of playing the tape, is like saying lightning striking twice in the same place is evidence that Zeus exists, because lightning is rumored 'not to be able to do that.'

Originally Posted by Marvo

There are more than 6 billion people on this planet. It is not unlikely at all, that some of them will make something up, just to gain attention/create a delusion for themselves. Additionally, it is not unlikely that some of them have some really bizzare hallucinations aswell.
Even if 100'000 people experienced something paranormal and described it thoroughly, it would still only be 0,0016666666% of the total population, and a majority of these could probably be explained through sicknesses, drugs, alcohol and psychological tremor. The rest are liers.

Oh, and I noticed the first video encouraged the viewer to be open minded.

There is also a possibility that people do look too far into things. What i mean is, if something unexplainable happens and we all rule it what you mentioned because of common sense then we really wont ever know if the super natural exists. What really do you need for evidence of the supernatural? unexplainable stuff is just that, stuff that we can't explained right now but in time we will be able to explain it, but other things that we can't seem to put a finger on. What if you see something move accrost the table on it's own and drops, we would then tell ourselves that we are just seeing things? even if it's flying? or if you are putting dishes away and something invisible grabs the dish and takes off with it. What would we say about that?

Don't they have special things for recording ghosts and stuff now? Since people claim the ghosts give off energy and special magnetic fields and stuff like that.

Originally Posted by Alric

Don't they have special things for recording ghosts and stuff now? Since people claim the ghosts give off energy and special magnetic fields and stuff like that.

Yes, they do, but it is all nonsense. They bring a Geiger counter, and EMF detector, and night vision goggles and then begin to misinterpret everything that happens like crazy.

We don't need any special equipment/tools/technology to measure ghosts. If the believer's claims that ghosts exist (i.e. affect us and the world we live in) are true, that means those ghosts interact with matter, so they are measurable.

It's ridiculous when someone claims a supernatural entity can move objects, talk to people, etc but that also it can't be measured.

(of course, we could lack methods to discover how exactly ghosts exist and break laws of physics)

Originally Posted by Alric

Don't they have special things for recording ghosts and stuff now? Since people claim the ghosts give off energy and special magnetic fields and stuff like that.

It's called EVP for Electronic Voice Phenomina. It's in movies such as WhiteNoise and WhiteNoise 2.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

It's called EVP for Electronic Voice Phenomina. It's in movies such as WhiteNoise and WhiteNoise 2.

The practice was made popular by Peter Frampton and his 1976 album Frampton Comes Alive with the song "Do You Feel Like We Do?".

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The practice was made popular by Peter Frampton and his 1976 album Frampton Comes Alive with the song "Do You Feel Like We Do?".

You learn something new every day.

now I understand why some people believe all supernatural phenomenon are caused by 'demons' or 'angels' and not what is commonly referred to as 'ghosts' (deceased humans). because the bible says there is "no communication between the living and the dead".

but visitations from family members who have recently died is actually the most common 'ghost' experience! most especially among christians!

when studying the paranormal, investigators have to take into account several theories. these different theories would require different modes of technology to prove or disprove. some of them could never be proven

1. time phenomenons. some spirits are seen doing the same activity at the same time of day. as if on a loop. they never interact with the 'living', or even seem to be aware of the 'living'. thus many have come to believe they are not spirits at all, but some sort of time phenomenon

most 'time phenomenons' are also experienced in the same way. you might see a person sipping a cup of joe, nothing strange, nothing weird. they look like any other living person, and poof. THEY DISAPPEAR! the next day someone else sees the same thing

the problem with the time phenomenon theory is they don't always affect everyone in the room as you would expect a time phenomeon should. which leads to theory number 2

2. other bardos/alternate worlds/parallel universes. bardos are illusionary dream like worlds, WE ARE IN ONE according to belief. spirits are beings living on another bardo. it would be a bit like the movie 'the others'. to them, we are the ghosts, and they are the ones who are in solid physical bodies.

bardos can be heavenly, bardos can be hell, or they can just be like earth. where people carry out routine boring lives.

the bardo theory is something science can never objectively prove. the laws of physics could be entirely different in different bardos

3. imprints - these are strong traumatic memories, that had so much energy to them, an etheric residue remains. this etheric residue would be like a body and hold a tiny amount of consciousness imparted from the original person. it's like a dream character that never disappeared when the individual woke up. a dream character still living out that particular dream, or nightmare, again and again. similiar to the time phenomenon, except imprints do interact with the 'living'. but only within the context of their traumatic memory, very much like a dream character only interacts with you within the context of a dream.

however it's believed you don't have to die to create an imprint. you just have to suffer untold horrors

4. and of course, everyone's favorite. the traditional ghost. the traditional ghost would be a being in the etheric realm. an inbetween realm between here and another bardo

while all of these are wild and speculative, the latter is said to be eventually provable.

why? because the ether is believed to be a part of our physical world, and does produce conclusive effects on our physical world. measurable effects. the ether body would also follow our laws of physics.

so far they believe that etheric beings require large amounts of energy to affect the physical world. their bodies do not naturally produce enough energy to do so......our bodies on the other hand are energy producers........investigators have used devices to create an energy field so the etheric beings can use the energy to produce results. some have offered their own body energy.

of course there is the problem of getting them to behave. you can't exactly set up an experiment "push the red button if you are real". because if the ether theory is real, there are only few reaons why a spirit would be living in the ether, and most of them are less than friendly reasons.



in this case, I would believe the original poster. there are no human spirits living in the ether. the belief is the human etheric body IS A PART OF OUR PHYSICAL BODY..........because the etheric body is physical.........when the body dies, so does the etheric body. therefore, no humans live in the ether

all human beings running around in the ether are either recently deceased, who's decaying bodies still have energy. semi-conscious imprints trapped in a self-created nightmare. or living humans (dreamers and astral projectors)

there are however ways to cheat the death of the etheric body. steal living energy and become something less than human. something more demonic. you could even possibly steal energy from an imprint. (you can't steal from your own imprint. it would just merge back into your consciousness)

wasn't that crazy and fun!! but crazyness aside, investigators believe that etheric ghosts produce an electromagnetic field. this at least gives a starting point