I wouldn't worship god even if it was certain he existed... discuss.

A bit of background; I'm an athiest, but I'm open minded. I prefer to think of athiesm as an open minded and rational way of looking at the world. I try my best to take in all the evidence available to me and make a logical and unbaised decision about the most likely situation. And I've decided that it's fairly certain that god doesn't exist. Even though I'm open to new evidence, I haven't heard many truly convincing arguments for the existance of god.

Moving on. If fire started falling from the sky and angels flew down and god appeared in all his glory right now at this moment, and said to everyone on earth, "I exist. Worship me"; I would be fairly certain he existed.

However that's just a simplification. Basically, I just need any sort of evidence that god almost certainly exists.

OK... what now? I guess I should probably worship him. I don't know many people who believe in god and don't think he's a good thing. But if you really think about it... why would I want to believe in god? Why would anyone?

He's a pretty nasty guy. Look in the Old Testament and there are many examples of him being pretty horrible. Killing people who don't believe in him and all that. So that's one thing.

And of course there's all the pain and suffering in the world he just doesn't seem to do much about. However, I admit he could come up with an explanation for all this. Even so it better be a pretty good reason, since I'd be kinda perplexed as to why he didn't think to tell any of us this in the first place. For example, if the reason was "suffering is a test" (which I've heard a lot), would it really hurt to tell us while we're alive? To this, Christians often respond "Faith is a virtue".

THIS is my major problem. I don't really want to worship a god who values blind faith over rational thinking. A god who sends people like me to hell for believing in the 99.999% chance of him not existing rather than taking the MASSIVE leap of faith required to take the other path.

What's so great about eternal bliss anyway? To be honest doesn't sound that great. Kinda scary, actually. Living forever sounds like it would get boring after a while. I'd much rather that my death was just the end. That I returned to the nothingness from where I came. That my life ends naturally in the amazingly complex yet astoundingly simple system of evolution and existence.

Of course, I need to remain open minded... so there's the possibility that if god exists, he explains everything in a nice and clear way and it all really makes sense, and I come to like him and decide it makes sense to worship him. I will admit that this is a possibility.

But as an athiest, I decide to take the most likely path. And that is that, if god does exist, it's going to take a lot for me to like him.

All religion is simply thought control. To keep people in fear, to keep them distracted from who they really are and what they can do.

Even if a God with a personality was real, I would not worship. That's living in fear. And that cancels out the "free will" that we're supposed to have.

If God started doing THAT round my neighbourhood I would become a devil worshipper on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

A bit of background; I'm an athiest, but I'm open minded. I prefer to think of athiesm as an open minded and rational way of looking at the world. I try my best to take in all the evidence available to me and make a logical and unbaised decision about the most likely situation. And I've decided that it's fairly certain that god doesn't exist. Even though I'm open to new evidence, I haven't heard many truly convincing arguments for the existance of god.

Moving on. If fire started falling from the sky and angels flew down and god appeared in all his glory right now at this moment, and said to everyone on earth, "I exist. Worship me"; I would be fairly certain he existed.

However that's just a simplification. Basically, I just need any sort of evidence that god almost certainly exists.

OK... what now? I guess I should probably worship him. I don't know many people who believe in god and don't think he's a good thing. But if you really think about it... why would I want to believe in god? Why would anyone?

He's a pretty nasty guy. Look in the Old Testament and there are many examples of him being pretty horrible. Killing people who don't believe in him and all that. So that's one thing.

And of course there's all the pain and suffering in the world he just doesn't seem to do much about. However, I admit he could come up with an explanation for all this. Even so it better be a pretty good reason, since I'd be kinda perplexed as to why he didn't think to tell any of us this in the first place. For example, if the reason was "suffering is a test" (which I've heard a lot), would it really hurt to tell us while we're alive? To this, Christians often respond "Faith is a virtue".

THIS is my major problem. I don't really want to worship a god who values blind faith over rational thinking. A god who sends people like me to hell for believing in the 99.999% chance of him not existing rather than taking the MASSIVE leap of faith required to take the other path.

What's so great about eternal bliss anyway? To be honest doesn't sound that great. Kinda scary, actually. Living forever sounds like it would get boring after a while. I'd much rather that my death was just the end. That I returned to the nothingness from where I came. That my life ends naturally in the amazingly complex yet astoundingly simple system of evolution and existence.

Of course, I need to remain open minded... so there's the possibility that if god exists, he explains everything in a nice and clear way and it all really makes sense, and I come to like him and decide it makes sense to worship him. I will admit that this is a possibility.

But as an athiest, I decide to take the most likely path. And that is that, if god does exist, it's going to take a lot for me to like him.

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You've summed up my path to deism, and most very recently, athiesm. I certainly HOPE God doesn't exist according to the way he's described in the Bible! He's a cold-bloodded egotistical psychopath!

You certainly restrict your view of what God is. Furthermore, you attribute your
lack of understanding of this God to your knowledge about it's nature, that
being of cruelty or lack of care for the human population. Instead of being truly
open minded you are already predisposed to disfavor because of what we
human beings wrote down in books.

But without the books, what justification do we have for God in the first place?

The question, "Where did we come from?" with respect to the universe, is a
pretty common one that most everyone ends up asking themselves at some point.

Whether or not you believe the universe was made or came about as the result
of pure chance or what have you is irrelevant. The justification is that the
universe has a beginning and God is one of many possible causes.

I was deist not even a month ago, but after some thinking I later came down to pragmatic agnosticism/bordering on athiesm.

Essentially, I really don't know for sure if there is a God or not, but where people choose to believe something unexplained is by God, I choose to believe it is not and simply acknowledge that it is unexplained.

I also hold that whether or not there is a God is irrelevant as well, because whatever higher powers exist very obviously do not care about the state of affairs on Earth.

We certainly weren't created by that God.

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Originally Posted by mini0991

But without the books, what justification do we have for God in the first place?

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The only justification, direct experience.

The presence, absence or specific qualities of a Lord/Creator isn't the most relevant question here. Worship is essentially awe + gratitude. Are you incapable of having an orientation of awe and gratitude toward your existence?

I am gratefull for my existance ^^

I am not grateful for my sheer existance. Only for the things that make it worth enduring.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I am not grateful for my sheer existance. Only for the things that make it worth enduring.

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That distinction would be the source of your suffering, but that's another thread ;)

For those of us who are awed and grateful to be manifest in this continuum, it would only make sense if we also believed an entity was responsible for our manifestation to extend that awe and gratitude to it, however messily our manifestation was achieved.

It's not religion you don't like, it's your conception of it that you don't like, or at least the popular version of it. Just because most people think they know what something is, doesn't mean that's what it has to be.

The main problem with popular religion is most people think it's supposed to be based on faith. There is nothing special about faith or belief, it's an archetype that changed overtime like any other. And like any other archetype, you have to focus your awareness on it to have any effect.

Believing in god if you never turn your thoughts to spiritual matters is hypocritical. The focus of attention is more important than the belief, but even more important is choosing what you focus on.

Metaphorically, god doesn't send anyone to hell ever for any reason. It's the people who turn their backs on him and happily throw themselves into the abyss of their own free will. Maybe not free will if people don't realize it's happening, but the option is there if you have to wherewithal to exercise it.

Confession is nothing more than a way to stop people from focusing on negative things that might otherwise distract their attention and interfere with the shaping of their reality.

There is no irreversible path to any one polarity, heaven or hell. No blunder you can make that will doom you other than failing to realize you have a choice. The choice is your to make at any time as often as you like. The church is right about that much, it's never too late to change paths. I jump back and forth all the time, it's just that generally speaking, the dark side is a shitty place to live. But it can be fun to visit!

Being able to exercise that choice is the big problem. I think free will is lucidity, because that's all lucidity really allows you to do, the only real control you have over dreams. People think they automatically have free will, but like lucidity, you have to work for it.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

That distinction would be the source of your suffering, but that's another thread ;)

For those of us who are awed and grateful to be manifest in this continuum, it would only make sense if we also believed an entity was responsible for our manifestation to extend that awe and gratitude to it, however messily our manifestation was achieved.

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I think that the 'awed' must be mentally handicapped in some fashion. The world is shit; it's practically a fact. Only humans can make it better. We gave God a chance and he has failed (quite miserably), so now it's our turn.

As for the Buddhist and right-hand nonsense of 'pleasure = pain' (because that's effectively what they're saying)... I do not feel pain when I can't get what I want. I feel PAIN when some scum of the earth sadist has me tied up in his cellar skinning me alive and torturing me in unspeakable ways. Let's see Siddhartha rangatang his way around that incident then.

I have a huge respect for the worldly things that I enjoy. Anyone who is experienced with the appreciation understands how to avoid suffering because of it. Usually, people who chase after things they want and end up in a mental hell for it are the ones who CAN'T appreciate what they have.

I am having my cake and eating it too. I am always going to live indulgently; because these are the things that stop me from wanting to fucking die.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I think that the 'awed' must be mentally handicapped in some fashion.

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That's a serious statement. I hope you are prepared to back it up with more
than just personal opinion. I also hope that it's not based off of some
inability to experience awe on your part.

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The world is shit; it's practically a fact.

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Practicality is a positive trait. Are you aware of what it means?
For something to be 'practical'?

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Only humans can make it better.

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We do not yet fully understand the mechanics of our reality.
Please explain how we could improve upon this.